Reasonable Transit Pitches

There are two pedestrian-only crossings (both with full gates, lights, and bells) on the Grand Junction. One is at Fort Washington Park in Cambridgeport; the other is next to a parking garage between Mass. Ave. and Main Street. I did not know there were plans for a third one.
 
You'd think I would have noticed the gates on Cambridge St. since I live so close to there... Anyway I've definitely seen the trains stop and wait for cars to get out of the way at Mass Ave and occasionally Broadway.

Do you know if they've built the new crossing by Pacific St. yet? When I lived in NW86 I used to have to hop over parked trains to get to campus...



I think there's enough room to squeeze a path next to Fitchburg which would get you to Lechmere, but that's still not nearly as useful a destination as NS would be. Maybe the only way transit can happen (without building too much) along the GJ is if the FRA relaxes their requirements for DMU's :(

GLX and the related reconfiguration of the freight runaround around BET is going to eat up what little space there is by the Fitchburg Line.

FRA might allow some Euro-model DMU's to help stimulate the market a bit for those cars, since going full FRA buff strength has made American makes totally, utterly cost-ineffective.. But they're still RR-level buff strength, which is substantial even in Europe. River Line is basically Type 7-like tincans with an internal combustion engine. It would get crushed like a tincan if it were involved in a collision with commuter rail equipment on the Worcester or Fitchburg. The only way those are allowed to use RR tracks are if they are diametrically separated in operating hours...PLUS an extra hour of buffer space at each shift change. I think freights only have a 3-hour window in the wee hours where they can run on the River Line. Same problem...no way to provide connectivity if you can't venture onto the Worcester or Fitchburg lines even 1 inch. And DMU's at even Euro buff strength still have an accel/decel penalty worse than full-bore American EMU's. It's simply not going to be possible to get that kind of stop density on RR equipment. It only works as light rail or BRT, which means you have to have a RR replacement for the Grand Junction. Be it N-S Link, snaking a single Worcester-Fitchburg track next to 128 for 1.5 miles. Something. The closest next-closest N-S connection is Pan Am's godawful and twisty Worcester Branch between Worcester and Ayer, which doesn't work when a loco has to go 50 miles out of the way for a refueling or a busted set of wheels unsteady on its feet has to be gingerly moved to BET.
 
There are two pedestrian-only crossings (both with full gates, lights, and bells) on the Grand Junction. One is at Fort Washington Park in Cambridgeport; the other is next to a parking garage between Mass. Ave. and Main Street. I did not know there were plans for a third one.

I'm not sure I'm totally happy with making more grade crossings instead of less ones, but it's probably better than bisecting those paths.
 
Even done "wrong," the N-S Rail Link frees up worlds of capacity by allowing for both revenue and non-revenue moves easily and quickly between the two stations. South Station, for example, can start tossing as many trains as the trackage will permit up to North Station, which is a lot further away from max capacity. Storing trains at the yards around North Station instead of on South Station platforms is another thing we could do far more easily with the Rail Link, and of course, it instantly downgrades the Grand Junction from 'primary ROW for equipment moves' and lets us have a serious conversation about what to do with that ROW instead.

True though this may be, how would the N/S Link connect to the existing North Station platforms? Short of bulldozing TD Garden, I don't think there is a way.
At the very least, it would require (1) a new mezzanine and platform complex below the current one at South Station, and (2) a myriad of new portals on both sides.
Also, terminating trains at North Station, presumably to bypass South, would be inefficient because very few commuters have their final destination in that area, save for travelers to TD Garden events. I think that the ideal would be to make the N/S link a mass transit link, as that would provide the desired connectivity while allowing for a new service down the Fairmount line and Lowell Line (GLX).
 
True though this may be, how would the N/S Link connect to the existing North Station platforms? Short of bulldozing TD Garden, I don't think there is a way.
At the very least, it would require (1) a new mezzanine and platform complex below the current one at South Station, and (2) a myriad of new portals on both sides.
Also, terminating trains at North Station, presumably to bypass South, would be inefficient because very few commuters have their final destination in that area, save for travelers to TD Garden events. I think that the ideal would be to make the N/S link a mass transit link, as that would provide the desired connectivity while allowing for a new service down the Fairmount line and Lowell Line (GLX).

No, if any station would be bypassed, it would be Back Bay. Northbound trains that would terminate at North Station would all stop at South Station, and southbound trains terminating at South Station would all stop at North Station.

TD Garden is built on top of North Station. The only things we would need to bulldoze is their basement and possibly parts of the garages, and we'd probably be able to extend the subway concourse under the street to the new platforms.

Portals... you can get away with a portal on the Back Bay Approach Curve, a portal on the Fairmount Line, and a North Station Portal of some kind. Three total, and that takes care of all of Amtrak's needs plus every single commuter rail line except for the Old Colonies and Greenbush.
 
Thank you for clarifying. I suppose I wasn't familiar with the design of North Station, it's been awhile since I've used the MBCR station there.
However, I still can't help but wonder how you can justify the construction of a new terminal-level station below South Station. It would be safe to say that Amtrak services, the Old Colony Lines, and various other trains could terminate at South Station. However, South Station in its current form is not configurable for thru trains, and the only way to enable trains to pass through South on their way to North would be to build a platform complex deep underground. An even larger terminal for northern service trains would be required as well.
Again, I point to New York metro area. The majority of LIRR users do not have Atlantic Ave or Long Island City as their final destination, and the majority of NJ Transit users do not have Hoboken as their final destination. In fact, within Manhattan Penn Station and Grand Central are frequently of differing conveniences depending on the commuter. However, almost all of the terminals have reasonably good connectivity. It seems that the least expensive and most useful way to do the N/S Link would be as a rapid transit link, and potentially with united Amtrak service at South Station.
 
Thank you for clarifying. I suppose I wasn't familiar with the design of North Station, it's been awhile since I've used the MBCR station there.
However, I still can't help but wonder how you can justify the construction of a new terminal-level station below South Station. It would be safe to say that Amtrak services, the Old Colony Lines, and various other trains could terminate at South Station. However, South Station in its current form is not configurable for thru trains, and the only way to enable trains to pass through South on their way to North would be to build a platform complex deep underground. An even larger terminal for northern service trains would be required as well.
Again, I point to New York metro area. The majority of LIRR users do not have Atlantic Ave or Long Island City as their final destination, and the majority of NJ Transit users do not have Hoboken as their final destination. In fact, within Manhattan Penn Station and Grand Central are frequently of differing conveniences depending on the commuter. However, almost all of the terminals have reasonably good connectivity. It seems that the least expensive and most useful way to do the N/S Link would be as a rapid transit link, and potentially with united Amtrak service at South Station.

Unfortunately, the South Station reconstruction obliterated most of the never-used lower level that was there already and the Big Dig took out the rest, otherwise we wouldn't have to build a new platform complex underground. As it stands, six or eight new platforms built underground leading into a four-track Rail Link solves South Station's capacity issues a lot better than awkwardly tacking those tracks onto the end of South Station where the Post Office is now. We're also going to need a bigger mezzanine eventually anyway - why not take care of both problems at once with the rail link?

As for North Station, it's nowhere near as close to 100% capacity utilization as South Station is - you really can get away with just extending the subway station's concourse underneath the existing North Station / TD Garden building and serving the four/six/eight new platforms on the other end of the four-track Rail Link with that. You'd pick up an all-indoor connection between the subway and the commuter rail / TD Garden as well.

As for Penn Station and Grand Central... there's support for connecting them, as well. Such a connection is also in Amtrak's Vision, which has a lot of things wrong with it but that's not one of them. You mentioned Hoboken, as well, which features a PATH train that goes to 33rd Street Station - one block away from Penn Station.
 
Unfortunately, the South Station reconstruction obliterated most of the never-used lower level that was there already and the Big Dig took out the rest, otherwise we wouldn't have to build a new platform complex underground. As it stands, six or eight new platforms built underground leading into a four-track Rail Link solves South Station's capacity issues a lot better than awkwardly tacking those tracks onto the end of South Station where the Post Office is now. We're also going to need a bigger mezzanine eventually anyway - why not take care of both problems at once with the rail link?

As for North Station, it's nowhere near as close to 100% capacity utilization as South Station is - you really can get away with just extending the subway station's concourse underneath the existing North Station / TD Garden building and serving the four/six/eight new platforms on the other end of the four-track Rail Link with that. You'd pick up an all-indoor connection between the subway and the commuter rail / TD Garden as well.

As for Penn Station and Grand Central... there's support for connecting them, as well. Such a connection is also in Amtrak's Vision, which has a lot of things wrong with it but that's not one of them. You mentioned Hoboken, as well, which features a PATH train that goes to 33rd Street Station - one block away from Penn Station.

Regarding the multitude of terminals in NYC and Hoboken, I don't see why these connectivity issues in Boston can't be solved in much the same way. A rapid transit link would fairly simply solve the issue with connections between North and South Stations. A 3-track tunnel with 2 rapid transit and 1 for conventional rail for Downeaster and other services would be the most realistic solution. There could be a SMALL underground complex to act as a terminal for Amtrak northern services. The rapid transit link would provide all of the remaining connectivity.

I am not fundamentally against the idea of uniting the commuter rail operations, I just think that the billions of $$$ that would go into a wider tunnel and larger platform complex could be better used elsewhere.
 
Regarding the multitude of terminals in NYC and Hoboken, I don't see why these connectivity issues in Boston can't be solved in much the same way. A rapid transit link would fairly simply solve the issue with connections between North and South Stations. A 3-track tunnel with 2 rapid transit and 1 for conventional rail for Downeaster and other services would be the most realistic solution. There could be a SMALL underground complex to act as a terminal for Amtrak northern services. The rapid transit link would provide all of the remaining connectivity.

I am not fundamentally against the idea of uniting the commuter rail operations, I just think that the billions of $$$ that would go into a wider tunnel and larger platform complex could be better used elsewhere.

No way will I ever support a single tracking of anything, ever. 2 tracks at minimum, and that's non negotiable. I'd be amicable to the idea of 2 rapid transit and 2 rail tracks, but it's either that or 4 rail tracks.

I appreciate your concern, however, I believe that the $billions we would spend on the rail link is dollar for dollar the most cost effective use of that money, conferring tremendous benefit to commuter operations, regional operations, and intercity service. Rapid transit will only benefit commuters and regional travel.
 
No way will I ever support a single tracking of anything, ever. 2 tracks at minimum, and that's non negotiable. I'd be amicable to the idea of 2 rapid transit and 2 rail tracks, but it's either that or 4 rail tracks.

I appreciate your concern, however, I believe that the $billions we would spend on the rail link is dollar for dollar the most cost effective use of that money, conferring tremendous benefit to commuter operations, regional operations, and intercity service. Rapid transit will only benefit commuters and regional travel.

Given the short distance, one track seems sufficient for non rapid transit service. Unless the plan is to have an intercity train arrive or depart every 2 minutes, a single track would presumably get the job done.

In terms of intercity transit, that would be addressed by the single track. North side commuters would be able to more easily reach their final destination, whether it be the Back Bay (orange line), or the Financial District (N/S rapid transit). Uniting all commuter rail operations would only provide an easy way for people to transfer from a south side line to north side or vice versa, which nobody does anyways. It's called COMMUTER rail for a reason, and in terms of thru service, I don't see any demand.
 
b-line200, I beg you to read about RER before we go any further in this discussion.
 
Given the short distance, one track seems sufficient for non rapid transit service. Unless the plan is to have an intercity train arrive or depart every 2 minutes, a single track would presumably get the job done.

In terms of intercity transit, that would be addressed by the single track. North side commuters would be able to more easily reach their final destination, whether it be the Back Bay (orange line), or the Financial District (N/S rapid transit). Uniting all commuter rail operations would only provide an easy way for people to transfer from a south side line to north side or vice versa, which nobody does anyways. It's called COMMUTER rail for a reason, and in terms of thru service, I don't see any demand.

Between Expanded Downeaster Service, NEC Main Line Operations, and expanded Springfield-Albany Service (all of which are in planning), I wouldn't be surprised at all if more than one intercity train arrived or departed every 2 minutes:
8 trains per hour on the NEC (2 regionals arrive, 2 regionals depart, 2 acelas arrive, 2 acelas depart) alone makes for a train arriving or leaving every 7.5 minutes. Throw in 2 trains per hour (1 arrival, 1 departure) each on the Downeaster, mix-and-match service to Points West (Buffalo-Cleveland-Chicago, Niagara Falls-Toronto), and the Inlander Regional (New Haven - Hartford - Springfield - Worcester - Boston) and 6 commuter trains per hour, that makes 20 trains - one arriving or departing every 3 minutes, and that's assuming that the Capitol Corridor NH never gets going, a CR extension into Portsmouth NH never happens, Springfield Commuter Rail never happens, and New Haven - Hartford - Springfield never requires more than one train per hour each way. Even then, given the number of trains out of service you can find on South Station platforms at any given time, I don't think it's any stretch at all to say that the MBCR would more than happily deadhead another 10 trains on their own through the tunnel if they could.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we ended up with a train utilizing that tunnel every 45 seconds.
 
@Matthew, I think that the RER is an entirely different situation. I'm familiar with it, but it is unrealistic to make that our goal. Besides, plenty of cities (NYC, London) have very successful rail operations despite terminating at different stations. RER also has thru service, which is inconceivable due to the lack of demand for intersuburban transit in the Boston region. I cannot stress that enough: If somebody living in the North Shore works in Framingham, there is little chance that they will take more time out of their day to take the train there. Until there is a market for that sort of travel, connecting the entire commuter rail system is of little relevance.

Between Expanded Downeaster Service, NEC Main Line Operations, and expanded Springfield-Albany Service (all of which are in planning), I wouldn't be surprised at all if more than one intercity train arrived or departed every 2 minutes:
8 trains per hour on the NEC (2 regionals arrive, 2 regionals depart, 2 acelas arrive, 2 acelas depart) alone makes for a train arriving or leaving every 7.5 minutes. Throw in 2 trains per hour (1 arrival, 1 departure) each on the Downeaster, mix-and-match service to Points West (Buffalo-Cleveland-Chicago, Niagara Falls-Toronto), and the Inlander Regional (New Haven - Hartford - Springfield - Worcester - Boston) and 6 commuter trains per hour, that makes 20 trains - one arriving or departing every 3 minutes, and that's assuming that the Capitol Corridor NH never gets going, a CR extension into Portsmouth NH never happens, Springfield Commuter Rail never happens, and New Haven - Hartford - Springfield never requires more than one train per hour each way. Even then, given the number of trains out of service you can find on South Station platforms at any given time, I don't think it's any stretch at all to say that the MBCR would more than happily deadhead another 10 trains on their own through the tunnel if they could.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we ended up with a train utilizing that tunnel every 45 seconds.

Why would Amtrak want to route their trains through the N/S Link? The proposal for Acela to stop at Grand Central was dropped in the latest revision of their 2040 Vision, so why is Boston a deserving market for 3 stops when New York City will have to deal with one? The most realistic vision for the short term, assuming that the tunnel and underground concourse can be expanded if the need arises, is this:
(1) 2 trains per hour on the Downeaster
(2) no more than 2 on the Portsmouth line
(3) maximum of 2 to Vermont and (potentially) on to Montreal

As for the commuter rail and regional rail routing to North Station, this just seems like an expensive solution to the problem of South Station at maximum capacity. There was a proposal on the docket until recently to relocate the Post Office so that additional tracks can be added, which would add all of the needed tracks to solve the capacity issue. I must say that I didn't like the initial renderings for the expansion, but that can be changed. I don't see how a N/S rail link would be a more elegant solution to the capacity issue than the South Station expansion.
 
If you built a North - South Tunnel you could run Amtrak trains up to Portland and Concord which would free up capacity. Most of the people who use I-93 go trough Boston so there seems to be a decent demand already for a North - South Link. The New Haven - Hartford - Springfield - Brattleboro corridor will never use the Boston Network thats a seperate project. The Capital Corridor , Downeastern Extensions and Portsmouth line would greatly benefit from a North - South tunnel. Unlike in this region , Boston system is either electric or diesel which means you don't need to buy different trains other then dual or one power source....
 
@Matthew, I think that the RER is an entirely different situation. I'm familiar with it, but it is unrealistic to make that our goal. Besides, plenty of cities (NYC, London) have very successful rail operations despite terminating at different stations. RER also has thru service, which is inconceivable due to the lack of demand for intersuburban transit in the Boston region. I cannot stress that enough: If somebody living in the North Shore works in Framingham, there is little chance that they will take more time out of their day to take the train there. Until there is a market for that sort of travel, connecting the entire commuter rail system is of little relevance.



Why would Amtrak want to route their trains through the N/S Link? The proposal for Acela to stop at Grand Central was dropped in the latest revision of their 2040 Vision, so why is Boston a deserving market for 3 stops when New York City will have to deal with one? The most realistic vision for the short term, assuming that the tunnel and underground concourse can be expanded if the need arises, is this:
(1) 2 trains per hour on the Downeaster
(2) no more than 2 on the Portsmouth line
(3) maximum of 2 to Vermont and (potentially) on to Montreal

As for the commuter rail and regional rail routing to North Station, this just seems like an expensive solution to the problem of South Station at maximum capacity. There was a proposal on the docket until recently to relocate the Post Office so that additional tracks can be added, which would add all of the needed tracks to solve the capacity issue. I must say that I didn't like the initial renderings for the expansion, but that can be changed. I don't see how a N/S rail link would be a more elegant solution to the capacity issue than the South Station expansion.

NYC is getting more then you think and the Terminals do not work anymore , all are overcapacity except Hoboken. It would greatly benefit Amtrak to through run their trains up to Concord and Portland and eventually Bangor...it would cut costs and free up space at South Station and I wouldn't be surprised if it 4x the ridership of Northeast Regional.
 
Fine, but it seems like an expensive STATE-FUNDED project benefiting mainly people further down the NEC. If, instead of bothering with multiple portals and a complete redesign of the way that the station works, a single rapid transit portal to the Fairmount was built and terminal tracks built at South Station, that would do the job by letting Acela riders have a pretty easy transfer to Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. Though I understand that North Station is underutilized, making North Station the new NEC terminal is something that Amtrak is probably not on board with (no pun intended).

In conclusion:
Option 1: Build portals for the Fairmount Line and Back Bay lines, the latter of which may be tricky. Then construct a deep bore tunnel underneath the existing South Station complex, including new platforms, to slowly rise to the level of the North Station platforms.

Option 2: Build the tunnel as a slightly less deep bore from the North Station platforms to 4 or so underground terminal tracks at South Station. A portal for rapid transit for the Fairmount Line would be built, which has less space constraints than the Back Bay lines. Though no direct conventional rail link would exist, the underground platforms could be expanded for further demand.

It seems that Option 2 would be less expensive.
 
I'm glad you know about the RER. Then you'll know that it was planned and built not too long before the N/S rail link was considered as part of the Big Dig. It's been wildly successful for Paris.

Here in Boston, lots of folks commute from suburb to suburb. They just get in their car to do it, because the commuter rail system does not serve them. If an RER-like system could be built here, I think it would have the same transformational effect -- indeed, I think this was the reasoning behind including it as part of the Big Dig effort originally. Now it's reasonable to argue that we would screw it up and therefore it would not be so useful. But done right I think it would be very significant.

In NYC, the lack of connection between GCT and Penn Station is also a big problem. The other fiasco is the three competing agencies, with all the political problems that causes. They need to overcome the technical hurdles and find a way to run commuter trains through Penn Station at the very least, to make feasible NJ/LI/CT commutes. It's completely silly that they've let this fester for so long.
 
I'm glad you know about the RER. Then you'll know that it was planned and built not too long before the N/S rail link was considered as part of the Big Dig. It's been wildly successful for Paris.

Here in Boston, lots of folks commute from suburb to suburb. They just get in their car to do it, because the commuter rail system does not serve them. If an RER-like system could be built here, I think it would have the same transformational effect -- indeed, I think this was the reasoning behind including it as part of the Big Dig effort originally. Now it's reasonable to argue that we would screw it up and therefore it would not be so useful. But done right I think it would be very significant.

In NYC, the lack of connection between GCT and Penn Station is also a big problem. The other fiasco is the three competing agencies, with all the political problems that causes. They need to overcome the technical hurdles and find a way to run commuter trains through Penn Station at the very least, to make feasible NJ/LI/CT commutes. It's completely silly that they've let this fester for so long.

I'm not saying that intersuburban commuting doesn't exist, I'm saying that you'd be hard pressed to find people willing to take a train. Let's say somebody lives in Weymouth, and they work in Waltham. Realistically, they could either take the commuter rail to South Station, transfer to the Fitchburg Line, and then take a bus from some station to their office park destination. On the other hand, they could leave when they want, get on 128, arrive at their reserved parking space, all without having to worry about their train being delayed and having to wait in Waltham for the next shuttle bus.

Once there is a market for that kind of travel we can discuss that sort of system. Until then, thinking that a N/S rail link will suddenly give eastern Massachusetts Parisian-level population densities is foolish.
 
Why would Amtrak want to route their trains through the N/S Link? The proposal for Acela to stop at Grand Central was dropped in the latest revision of their 2040 Vision, so why is Boston a deserving market for 3 stops when New York City will have to deal with one? The most realistic vision for the short term, assuming that the tunnel and underground concourse can be expanded if the need arises, is this:
(1) 2 trains per hour on the Downeaster
(2) no more than 2 on the Portsmouth line
(3) maximum of 2 to Vermont and (potentially) on to Montreal

As for the commuter rail and regional rail routing to North Station, this just seems like an expensive solution to the problem of South Station at maximum capacity. There was a proposal on the docket until recently to relocate the Post Office so that additional tracks can be added, which would add all of the needed tracks to solve the capacity issue. I must say that I didn't like the initial renderings for the expansion, but that can be changed. I don't see how a N/S rail link would be a more elegant solution to the capacity issue than the South Station expansion.

The Acela and the Regional are two completely different animals with two completely different goals and priorities. I believe Amtrak still wants to stop their Regionals at both stations, and will likely want to stop Regionals at all three stations in Boston. The Acela, however, takes a huge penalty every time it needs to stop or slow down, and so there's emphasis placed on making sure it does that as few times as Amtrak can possibly get away with.

Any Acela train that would skip Back Bay in the future has to stop or originate from North Station for the Orange Line link - perhaps half of the Acelas would do this.

Another thing you're forgetting is that the identity of a train is not static - the entire train could empty out at North Station and pick up some southbound commuters, then continue on to South Station as a different train. Or vice versa. Mark from Melrose doesn't need to be commuting to Mansfield for that to be worth doing.

Finally, you mention the South Station Expansion Project, which is just about the furthest thing from an elegant solution you can get. No matter how many extra tracks we can tack on to the side of South Station, it's a band-aid capacity solution at best, and eats up far more space than simply building down would. Make no mistake, the expansion would require an overhaul of the station itself as well, and probably a more expensive one in the end. I'd bet we'd hit the capacity limit of the new tracks sooner than anticipated, as well, considering that the real reason we need an expansion - that being we are out of room in the yards connected to South Station - isn't really solved by just creating more platforms for out-of-service trains to get jammed up on.

Conversely, allowing those trains to use the yards connected to North Station, or even better, interlining those trains so that an out-of-service Stoughton Line train can continue on to Haverill instead, solves the problem more elegantly - and more permanently.

If you built a North - South Tunnel you could run Amtrak trains up to Portland and Concord which would free up capacity. Most of the people who use I-93 go trough Boston so there seems to be a decent demand already for a North - South Link. The New Haven - Hartford - Springfield - Brattleboro corridor will never use the Boston Network thats a seperate project. The Capital Corridor , Downeastern Extensions and Portsmouth line would greatly benefit from a North - South tunnel. Unlike in this region , Boston system is either electric or diesel which means you don't need to buy different trains other then dual or one power source....

I was wondering when you'd show up!

I'm talking about the New Haven - Hartford - Springfield - Worcester corridor, which is different from the Vermonter corridor you mention. In fairness, I had forgotten that the Vermonter was staying on its existing corridor south of Springfield, so between the Vermonter and the Inlander Regionals, the New Haven - Hartford - Springfield line is well covered.

Fine, but it seems like an expensive STATE-FUNDED project benefiting mainly people further down the NEC. If, instead of bothering with multiple portals and a complete redesign of the way that the station works, a single rapid transit portal to the Fairmount was built and terminal tracks built at South Station, that would do the job by letting Acela riders have a pretty easy transfer to Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine.

So basically we want a multibillion dollar tunnel and underground platform complex, all so that Mark from Melrose and Suzy from Swampscott can ride the train to their financial district offices without risking rubbing elbows with any unsavory characters on the subway? I don't think so.

Huh. So the real beneficiaries of the project are commuters coming in from the north, and intercity travelers coming in from the south, which means that a lot of people on both sides of the tunnel are benefiting! Glad we established that.
 

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