Reasonable Transit Pitches

[bigeman312]

Very small idea:

Rename Fenway T station; maybe Fens, or Landmark, or something like that. Then, put an icon on the subway map indicating specifically that Kenmore (and maybe the newly renamed Fenway) station is the stop for the Red Sox (maybe just the Red Sox 'B' next to the name).

Just to help stop all those stupid arguments you hear from out of town tourists when you're on the D line leading up to a Red Sox game: "Where do we get off? " "Well, this stops called Fenway, that must be the one." "I thought Kenmore was closer." "Lets just go to the Fenway one, we know for sure that one's close."

I like it! Here's an idea:

Change Yawkey (Worcester Line) to "Fenway"
Change Fenway (D-Branch) to "Audubon Circle"
Keep Kenmore the same.

Rant:
With increased service on the Worcester Line, that could easily become an alternative for many people going to Fenway Park. Riding the D Branch outbound after Red Sox games, the most popular stop for departure is probably Riverside. Many of these people park there and are coming from all over the MetroWest. Given the quicker, more convenient ride, many people may start parking at Wellesley Farms or Wellesley Square and taking the commuter rail in.

 

[novitiate]

I always figured Fenway Station was named such specifically to promote its usage as an alternate station for Fenway Park, to reduce overcrowding at Kenmore a bit. Certainly, all the prominent Red Sox signage in the station seems to imply that...

 

[Proposition Joe]

If you are going to rename Yawkey, rename it Fenway Park instead. Also Landmark would work better for a renamed Fenway station, especially compared with Aubdubon Circle as Beacon Street is the C Line's domain.

Frankly, I don't think any of the stations in the area need to be renamed. If you want to alleviate crowding after Red Sox games, then increase frequency on the Green Line and run a DMU or Commuter Rail train from Yawkey.

 

[George_Apley]

The station names seem fine to me... Joe's making a lot of sense. The best way to alleviate Kenmore is the same way to alleviate the whole Green Line in general: update the track signals to allow for higher frequencies and give trolleys priority at intersections.

 

[davem]

The Fenway, Fenway station and Fenway Park are all named after the Fenway neighborhood, which is in turn named after the Back Bay Fens. Changing the name of the station because tourists are too dumb to read the prolific signage at every major stop indicating to get off at Kenmore for Sox games sort of pisses on a few hundred years of history. Should we rename Harvard Ave because tourists may go there instead of Harvard Square, Tufts Medical when the GL extension opens, or Arlington if the red line extension ever happens?

With the Muddy River restoration project right there, I could get on board with a name change to "The Fens"; but changing it to Audubon Circle (which is what "St Marys" really should be called), or Landmark (wtf is that to someone who doesnt know the name of the building) is inappropriate.

Yawkey Way, however, should have absolutely been named "Fenway Park" right from the get-go. It would not be confused with the existing Fenway station since not only is it on a different line, but a different mode entirely. If anything it would actually clarify the fact that Fenway is not the stop for the Red Sox. It would also encourage use of the CR to get to the park, which could be further promoted by running a special from Riverside, as they did back in '96 when Kenmore flooded.


Although really in this day and age I can't understand the confusion to begin with. Everyone has a computer, with which they could check the MBTA's website, google maps, or really any corner of the internet to find the correct stop. Then most people have a smart phone, which can do that right from the T. Or ya know, they could ASK someone.

 

[bigeman312]

The Fenway, Fenway station and Fenway Park are all named after the Fenway neighborhood, which is in turn named after the Back Bay Fens. Changing the name of the station because tourists are too dumb to read the prolific signage at every major stop indicating to get off at Kenmore for Sox games sort of pisses on a few hundred years of history. Should we rename Harvard Ave because tourists may go there instead of Harvard Square, Tufts Medical when the GL extension opens, or Arlington if the red line extension ever happens?

This is bullshit. Why don't we rename it Chapel? Changing the name to Fenway from Chapel must have pissed off 100 years of history, didn't it? The fact is, Chapel was a shitty name for the station and Fenway is a better one, simply because the neighborhood is in fact Fenway. But "Fenway," as you know, is not the only station in Fenway. Heck, it's not the only station in Fenway on its line! Why not rename Kenmore Station, Fenway. While we're at it why don't we rename Northeastern University Station, Fenway as well?

Changing the name of Yawkey Station to Fenway makes sense because it is the only Commuter Rail station in Fenway. No, I don't feel strongly about changing the name of Fenway Station on the D-Branch though. I do think keeping a name that could be improved just based solely on the fact that it's been called that your whole life is foolish and shortsighted.

I've said Fenway too many times and it's lost it's meaning. Fenway.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Start changing station names and we get "State Street presented by Citizens Bank" again across the system on a grand scale. I don't care how geographically inaccurate some of these station names are...at least they're established enough names to become their own geographic marker. Open up that Pandora's Box and you won't like where it's headed.


"Next stop: Verizon station. Change here for the Partners Health Care Line. The destination of this train is...Liberty Mutual."

 

[bigeman312]

Start changing station names and we get "State Street presented by Citizens Bank" again across the system on a grand scale. I don't care how geographically inaccurate some of these station names are...at least they're established enough names to become their own geographic marker. Open up that Pandora's Box and you won't like where it's headed.


"Next stop: Verizon station. Change here for the Partners Health Care Line. The destination of this train is...Liberty Mutual."

Yes, if naming rights were sold. If not, we get changes that make sense:

NE Medical Center -> Tufts Medical Center
Kendall -> Kendall/MIT
Charles -> Charles/MGH
Science Park -> Science Park/West End
Malden -> Malden Center
Auditorium -> Hynes Convention Center/ICA -> Hynes Convention Center
Museum -> Museum/Ruggles -> Museum of Fine Arts

 

[davem]

This is bullshit. Why don't we rename it Chapel? Changing the name to Fenway from Chapel must have pissed off 100 years of history, didn't it? The fact is, Chapel was a shitty name for the station and Fenway is a better one, simply because the neighborhood is in fact Fenway. But "Fenway," as you know, is not the only station in Fenway. Heck, it's not the only station in Fenway on its line! Why not rename Kenmore Station, Fenway. While we're at it why don't we rename Northeastern University Station, Fenway as well?

Kenmore Square is part of the original Back Bay plan, so while really its always been a neighborhood unto itself, if you want to get nit-picky it would get tossed in there, not with the Fenway. Before it was Kenmore Square, it was Seawalls Point, part of Brookline. Boston then basically stole it from Brookline when they annexed Brighton, making it part of the Back Bay.

Chapel station was, if anything, closed. It was in Brookline at the intersection of Carlton and CHAPEL Streets, between the present day Fenway and Longwood stations. Still calling it Chapel after demolishing the headhouse, tearing up the platforms, moving it some 1200 feet and disconnecting it entirely from the street from which it took it's name would be nonsensical. I don't think it had anything to do with the "shittyness" of the name.

Same with Northeastern, the area in which it resides predates both the filling of the Back Bay, or the construction of the Fens, and has closer ties to Roxbury then Boston proper. Even today its a grey area, hence why it is named after the university that encompasses it. Now the bit of irony here is that Northeastern sits on the former Huntington Avenue Grounds, the park the Red Sox played at before the construction of Fenway Park (hence World Series Way running through the campus). Still, not a Fenway station.

Even Yawkey station is located directly ON the line separating Kenmore from the Fenway. Calling a station on the boarder the name of the neighborhood it represents is sort of bullshit. Calling it Fenway Park would make sense, it being a major attraction that defines the only thing it easily connected to when it opened.

I get your point, but your arrival at it was convoluted to say the least. There is a lot more to it then that "its been called that my whole life". May I suggest on your next ride in from Newton you do a bit of digging into the history of the area, and actual neighborhood boundaries.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Yes, if naming rights were sold. If not, we get changes that make sense:

NE Medical Center -> Tufts Medical Center
Kendall -> Kendall/MIT
Charles -> Charles/MGH
Science Park -> Science Park/West End
Malden -> Malden Center
Auditorium -> Hynes Convention Center/ICA -> Hynes Convention Center
Museum -> Museum/Ruggles -> Museum of Fine Arts

But that's my point...if they open the door to making any name changes whatsoever, they will simultaneously open the door to drawing revenue out of them. And you will get the same result: corporate naming rights that don't have fuckall to do with geography.

We already had a couple close calls where they were considering just that. You are not likely to get one without the other, so be careful what you wish for.

 

[cbrett]

But that's my point...if they open the door to making any name changes whatsoever, they will simultaneously open the door to drawing revenue out of them. And you will get the same result: corporate naming rights that don't have fuckall to do with geography.

We already had a couple close calls where they were considering just that. You are not likely to get one without the other, so be careful what you wish for.

Renaming a station based on a massive landmark which a TON of people are trying to get to (many of whom are unfamiliar with the area) doesn't equal selling out. If allowing station renames opens the door for this than why don't they do it now? Stations have been renamed in the past, so why would this change be the catalyst for that?

 

[George_Apley]

Which station are we talking about renaming? Yawkey? The station is right across the parking lot from Yawkey Way and that street is already forever associated with the Red Sox and Fenway Park. No need for a change. Fenway station is too far away from the park to be named anything related to the stadium. As a diversion from Kenmore it's useful enough if you know how to get to the stadium from the station, but it's not immediately obvious when you get off the train. What would Fenway be renamed? Park Drive? The Fens?

 

[Matthew]

I recommend renaming every station to "Fenway". This will get back at those out-of-towners, and should spread out the baseball crowd a bit.

 

[bigeman312]

I recommend renaming every station to "Fenway". This will get back at those out-of-towners, and should spread out the baseball crowd a bit.

Haha, great.

Dave M. - Sorry for taking a hostile tone last night. Internet arguing is stupid and I was grumpy. Thanks for the history lesson (don't know how to portray sincerity on the internet). I still think exploring the renaming of a station for wayfinding purposes has merit, but Fenway is a more appropriate name than I had previously considered.

Agree to disagree on the merit of renaming stations overall, though.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Renaming a station based on a massive landmark which a TON of people are trying to get to (many of whom are unfamiliar with the area) doesn't equal selling out. If allowing station renames opens the door for this than why don't they do it now? Stations have been renamed in the past, so why would this change be the catalyst for that?

Money, and the corporate stench that permeates all levels of politics. I guarantee the decision-making process behind recalibrating station names is going to get thoroughly corrupted by that influence. The corporate naming rights idea was floated again last year during the funding crisis and thoroughly beaten back by bad publicity. They timed it with the funding crisis to justify it on grounds of "Well, we need to maximize our revenue sources." But look at who buys political influence...most-favored corporate donors. That trial balloon signifies clear intent at the top to sell off the identity of a core public service to enrich those most-favored corporate donors. And they will float that balloon again and again until the public gets numb to the idea. You can pretty much predict which group of usual suspects would get the choicest picks of naming rights. Just look at which companies swing the biggest dick with City Hall, the BRA, and Beacon Hill and which are in the Top 10 on every Legislative heavy's donor list.


If you open the door to changing names, it will involve corporate naming rights. That is inevitable because their intent has already been telegraphed with these trial balloons. It may start out as a stated plan for geographical recalibration...but it'll take no time for the balance of power to swing to corporate sponsorship at the expense of geography. I don't think there's any way to separate the two, because political decisions only get made by who influences the pols' turf. History has proven time and again with all matters transit that that's not the wishes of transit riders, it's the moneyed interests who have access to the politicians.


Maybe in some different, less-gilded age this will be a good idea. But in this era it's a cinch to get hijacked by those who only exist to line the pockets of their powerful friends, and the end result is going to be naming that's even more divorced from location than what we're attempting to fix. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that it's fraught with waaaaay more risk than you might think and it would be wise to bottle up and isolate to 1 specific station instead of opening up the possibility of making this a habit. Caveat emptor, pick your spots wisely, and make for damn sure the unintended consequences are well-managed. At least until the tide (we hope) swings away from such brazen selling of political favors to the highest bidder.

 

[bigeman312]

F-Line, I'm curious how you explain these:

NE Medical Center -> Tufts Medical Center
Kendall -> Kendall/MIT
Charles -> Charles/MGH
Science Park -> Science Park/West End
Malden -> Malden Center
Auditorium -> Hynes Convention Center/ICA -> Hynes Convention Center
Museum -> Museum/Ruggles -> Museum of Fine Arts

 

[George_Apley]

NE Medical Center -> Tufts Medical Center

The institution changed names.

Kendall -> Kendall/MIT

The station is still called "Kendall" on the signage. "MIT" is a subscript.

Charles -> Charles/MGH

Presumably intense lobbying by MGH. Honestly, this is an unpaid advertisement for MGH.

Science Park -> Science Park/West End

It's still "Science Park". "West End" is a subscript.

Malden -> Malden Center

Is this really a big enough to be a useful example?

Auditorium -> Hynes Convention Center/ICA -> Hynes Convention Center

The name of thing for which the station was named changed.

Museum -> Museum/Ruggles -> Museum of Fine Arts

Changed for specificity. Also, I don't think any of these were changed since the golden age of corporate sponsors, and certainly not since the T has been actively pushing for it to use sponsors.

If we go on a reaming spree now, if we're lucky we'll end up with geographically relevant names like "Broadway -- Brought to you by Gillette" or "State Street -- brought to you by State Street Corporation." If we're not lucky we'll get random sponsorships.

 

[Riverside]

Presumably intense lobbying by MGH. Honestly, this is an unpaid advertisement for MGH.

Not to be difficult, but we're talking about one of the premier medical institutions in the world here. The MGH complex takes up most of what used to be the West End. I don't think it's an advertisement nearly as much as it is a wayfinding indicator for one of the most important (and largest, geographically and otherwise) institutions in the entire Metro Boston area.

 

[George_Apley]

Not to be difficult, but we're talking about one of the premier medical institutions in the world here. The MGH complex takes up most of what used to be the West End. I don't think it's an advertisement nearly as much as it is a wayfinding indicator for one of the most important (and largest, geographically and otherwise) institutions in the entire Metro Boston area.

I agree 100% with you. It was important for it to be included (probably less important for Mass Eye & Ear to get lumped on to the announcement...). That doesn't change that it's a giveaway to Partners. Just like Museum of Fine Arts is a giveaway to the MFA. Obviously some institutions, by their nature, lend themselves to transit stops. Just because they're justified, doesn't mean they're not still unpaid advertising

 

[bigeman312]

I agree 100% with you. It was important for it to be included (probably less important for Mass Eye & Ear to get lumped on to the announcement...). That doesn't change that it's a giveaway to Partners. Just like Museum of Fine Arts is a giveaway to the MFA. Obviously some institutions, by their nature, lend themselves to transit stops. Just because they're justified, doesn't mean they're not still unpaid advertising

This is exactly my point. The names were changed. Institutions were sometimes involved. Wayfinding was improved. No slippery slope. No McDonald's Kenmore Station brought to you by JPMorgan Chase.