Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)


And yet, the project has been DoA for the lifetime of everyone on this forum. Maybe a different strategy is worth pursuing. The party that is “supposed” to support this sort of projects has had power plenty of times, and hasn’t done it.

When Tip O'Neill secured the funding for the Big Dig under President Reagan, he did so by not alienating Republicans or conservatives. He wheeled and dealed all of them to get things done. His type of pragmatism is needed today, instead of the tribalism that' has taken over national politics.

Can’t come from the politicians - the parties are re-aligning so the only thing keeping them together is tribalism. So, either the activists who are primarily focused on a single issue like NSRL can hold their nose, or we wait until the 2030s to make even the barest hint of progress.
 
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Now you have the problem that CR ridership is in the dumps because of WFH.

Commuter Rail and bus ridership are up to 75% of pre-COVID ridership, which is much higher than the Green, Red, or Orange Lines.

The myth that Commuter Rail ridership is taking a disproportionately hard hit from COVID is based on outdated info. It was true in 2021, but we’ve seen tremendous recovery of ridership on the Commuter Rail.

It’s interesting to look at the success of Commuter Rail recovery as a case study. One thing that’s worked well is the shift towards Regional Rail scheduling. With the Fairmount Line running consistent headways every 45 minutes, ridership is now higher than pre-COVID!
 
But what conservatives are we even talking about? If it's federal money we're talking about, the issue is more regional than it is ideological. While I don't doubt that there are plenty of conservatives/Republicans who would happily attack a proposal to spend federal dollars on a transit tunnel in liberal-blue Massachusetts, the thing they all care about the most when it comes to federal money is that their preferences get funded (this particular impulse is decidedly nonpartisan), which is why a project like this would almost certainly need to be part of a larger spending package for horse-trading money for other projects for votes of people (regardless of party) from elsewhere.

Specifically on the question of ideology, there's no meaningful conservative slant one can put on a project like this, unless we're talking the old "pro-business" style of conservatism. It certainly wouldn't hurt to have more support from various companies, employers, economic entities, etc., but even that doesn't necessarily outweigh the old-line conservatives' distaste for government spending and large-scale public works projects. (It's a pity Lockheed Martin doesn't do tunnels, we could call it a military program and get an endless budget.) Modern Trumpist-conservatism is basically tribal warfare, and Boston's in the enemy camp to those types of conservatives, so there's no meaningful support to be found there (well, Trump himself is so vain that maybe if we offered to name it after him, or trade him our electoral votes...)
National Interstate Defense Railway Act.....

Gotta move those missiles around somehow!

And the NSRL is a critical infrastructure link connecting RI, MA, NH and ME -- Interstate!
 
Charlie Chieppo can suck his own tailpipe. I don't want to build roads near his house because they might partially get him to and from his job. I don't want to help fund fire departments in his town because they may save him from burning up. I don't want to hire state police in his district because they might save him from a beatdown.
Small-minded cheapskate caveman crap. Basic math for Charlie The Lesser. If you can spend one dollar (obligatory state contribution) and get back 4 dollars (matching fed cash), that's.... lessee.... carry the one.... MORE MONEY!

Build it. Build it now.

Jeez. Tell us how you really feel. 😝

(Well, maybe if we called it the Trump Tunnel.)

Would happily have in big capital letters on both sides of the tunnel “dedicated to blessed angel and best president Donald Trump. Long may he covfefe” if it meant NSRL being built.
 
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Well, if you’re looking for some to win over, try the specific ones being attacked in this thread: the Pioneer Institute.

Since when does Pioneer have the credibility to need to be influenced? They're an astroturf thinktank that exists to push a narrow anti-tax/pro-privatization philosophy. And were it not for one of their ex-staffers occupying the Governor's Mansion and installing a revolving door for Pioneer people to occupy high positions in state government, they'd be a lonely voice pissing in the wind. They don't even glom all that easily onto general anti-tax/NIMBY sentiment because they want the investment but want it to have this very specific kind of free-market purity (hence the specific animus in Chieppo's comment to this helping Amtrak in any way/shape/form).

Like I said, Chieppo is pissed that nobody (including the media) is going to be returning his phone calls in 4 weeks. He and his colleagues have no real constituency. Or they had a constituency of one, and no longer do. They're irrelevant. Chieppo is salty because he knows he's no longer relevant.


I get wanting to craft a message that can reach out to Joe NIMBY Herald reader, but you've got to be selective. The opposition isn't a persuadeable big-tent. Pioneer is one loud but tiny example of a voice that should just be ignored full-stop. They aren't part of a persuadeable coalition, and they don't carry public influence going forward.
 
Commuter Rail and bus ridership are up to 75% of pre-COVID ridership, which is much higher than the Green, Red, or Orange Lines.

The myth that Commuter Rail ridership is taking a disproportionately hard hit from COVID is based on outdated info. It was true in 2021, but we’ve seen tremendous recovery of ridership on the Commuter Rail.

It’s interesting to look at the success of Commuter Rail recovery as a case study. One thing that’s worked well is the shift towards Regional Rail scheduling. With the Fairmount Line running consistent headways every 45 minutes, ridership is now higher than pre-COVID!

Interesting, because all I've heard about is empty parking lots and the MBTA hasn't restored peak frequencies. Looks like the OL shutdown and the subsquent hype over the OL slowness increased usage on a couple lines including Fairmount and they stuck with CR rather than go back.
 
Since when does Pioneer have the credibility to need to be influenced? They're an astroturf thinktank that exists to push a narrow anti-tax/pro-privatization philosophy. And were it not for one of their ex-staffers occupying the Governor's Mansion and installing a revolving door for Pioneer people to occupy high positions in state government, they'd be a lonely voice pissing in the wind. They don't even glom all that easily onto general anti-tax/NIMBY sentiment because they want the investment but want it to have this very specific kind of free-market purity (hence the specific animus in Chieppo's comment to this helping Amtrak in any way/shape/form).

Like I said, Chieppo is pissed that nobody (including the media) is going to be returning his phone calls in 4 weeks. He and his colleagues have no real constituency. Or they had a constituency of one, and no longer do. They're irrelevant. Chieppo is salty because he knows he's no longer relevant.


I get wanting to craft a message that can reach out to Joe NIMBY Herald reader, but you've got to be selective. The opposition isn't a persuadeable big-tent. Pioneer is one loud but tiny example of a voice that should just be ignored full-stop. They aren't part of a persuadeable coalition, and they don't carry public influence going forward.

And yet, the NSRL is still not going anywhere. You gotta start convincing people that aren’t on board, and griping that someone is “anti tax/pro privatization” isn’t going to accomplish that.
 
And yet, the NSRL is still not going anywhere. You gotta start convincing people that aren’t on board, and griping that someone is “anti tax/pro privatization” isn’t going to accomplish that.
Then find a party with some clout who *MIGHT* listen to an argument. Pioneer isn't any of that. They won't play ball, and they represent a breed of wonkish small-c political animal who is nigh extinct in this state. I'm not saying there aren't blocs you can sway. There are. I'm saying Pioneer specifically is a waste of that energy.
 
And yet, the NSRL is still not going anywhere. You gotta start convincing people that aren’t on board, and griping that someone is “anti tax/pro privatization” isn’t going to accomplish that.
The NSRL isn’t going anywhere for a number of reasons, starting with the lack of sufficient support within the Massachusetts Left. And at this point, the American Right definitionally opposes government investment in infrastructure and public services. Massachusetts is coming out of 8 years under the leadership of one of the few “moderate” Republicans still left in the party, and his deprioritization of investment in the T is literally laid bare every day, including today when the Orange Line somehow saw a major power issue that knocked out service on half the line. When a movement repeats again and again, “We don’t support public investment”, we should believe them.

I think the NSRL needs to gain the support of key politicians as individuals, who can wrap it into a larger platform, and then use their broader public support across their entire platform as leverage on this specific issue. I think Governor Healey is a good start, as would be Mayor Wu.
 
And yet, the NSRL is still not going anywhere. You gotta start convincing people that aren’t on board, and griping that someone is “anti tax/pro privatization” isn’t going to accomplish that.
The NSRL isn’t going anywhere for a number of reasons, starting with the lack of sufficient support within the Massachusetts Left. And at this point, the American Right definitionally opposes government investment in infrastructure and public services. Massachusetts is coming out of 8 years under the leadership of one of the few “moderate” Republicans still left in the party, and his deprioritization of investment in the T is literally laid bare every day, including today when the Orange Line somehow saw a major power issue that knocked out service on half the line. When a movement repeats again and again, “We don’t support public investment”, we should believe them.

I think the NSRL needs to gain the support of key politicians as individuals, who can wrap it into a larger platform, and then use their broader public support across their entire platform as leverage on this specific issue. I think Governor Healey is a good start, as would be Mayor Wu.

Riverside has the right idea. Ideology is not the only relevant factor when considering politics, salience and strength of preferred policy objectives is. It's reasonably likely that in the outgoing Congress there was a majority of people who would not, ideologically, have much if any issue with a transit tunnel project. The same is likely true of the state legislature. For most of those people, though, they simply care about other things more, be it issues deemed more important or more urgent (even here there's a contingent that's very much wary of expanding the T prior to getting the existing system to work properly), or projects more directly beneficial to their states, districts, or regions. (I.e. you might well find MA reps, say from out west, who don't have any ideological objection to spending on a large public works project, but who object to spending it in Boston rather than, say, Springfield).

A project's lack of salience is a way easier hurdle to overcome than ideological opposition. "Griping that someone is anti-tax/pro privatization" is, correct, not going to convince that someone who's not on board to come aboard. That's because people like Pioneer's objection is ideological. Convincing them to come aboard, as F-Line correctly notes, would run completely counter to everything they believe in, because their whole shtick is anti-government. The same is true for anyone (this particularly at the federal level) whose ideology is predicated on either small-statism (what's left of the Reaganite-Thatcherites in the GOP) and the own-the-libs Trumpists; the most you can hope to achieve with such people isn't to convince them of a project's merits (because they have a vested political interest - and often an identity interest - in not believing what you'd need them to believe), it's to buy their support with pork barrel spending...problem being that a lot of them are incentivized against that because it's seen as giving the "enemy" party a win, which makes primaries very uncomfortable. Not an impossible lift, but not super easy. Getting people predisposed to be okay with a project to care about it (salience) ought to be the goal. Baker was a dead end because of ideological opposition. Healey is making the right noises, but not rejecting a proposal out of hand isn't the same as supporting it. Advocacy should be directed towards making people and politicians treat the project as a high priority, not simply as a "nice to have" pipe dream. TransitMatters, Dukakis, Moulton, and others have done good work thus far, and should continue to. (And, it's worth noting that even token support from a governor is a big plus, because it's a hell of a lot easier to build up momentum when you don't have a near-guarantee that it'll all be for naught like you did with Baker & Company.)
 
Interesting, because all I've heard about is empty parking lots and the MBTA hasn't restored peak frequencies. Looks like the OL shutdown and the subsquent hype over the OL slowness increased usage on a couple lines including Fairmount and they stuck with CR rather than go back.

Interestingly, this narrative doesn’t align with reality. Most Commuter Rail lines run more service than pre-COVID. It’s also closer to clock-facing.

The regional rail model is amazing, compared to what was there before. I ride the Commuter Rail about once or twice a week for social purposes on all different lines, and I know that no matter the direction or time of day, there is going to be service. Most of my trips are off-peak, off-direction. These are trains that have healthy ridership, usually with a couple full bi-levels. I couldn’t have used the Commuter Rail like this in the before times, and so few people rode off-peak trains because they were so infrequent. By improving service in this manner, it’s sparked a faster return of ridership than other lines. The only possible negative slant you could push is that at peak times, in peak direction, some lines aren’t as frequent as they were. But that’s by design. It’s a more balanced system.
 
And yet, the NSRL is still not going anywhere. You gotta start convincing people that aren’t on board, and griping that someone is “anti tax/pro privatization” isn’t going to accomplish that.

I keep thinking we have to use other metro areas to convince politicians to get behind the NSRL. In just the last few years we have Cross River Rail in Brisbane, Australia; the Elizabeth Line in London; a second city rail tunnel in Munich......and many other excellent examples. I keep thinking that Eastern Massachusetts is not going to win against places like Austin or Charlotte for good weather and cost of living. However, if Massachusetts creates a regional rail system with the NSRL that is fast and convenient, it would be a HUGE game changer for this region against so many metro regions that are trying to poach our talent. I'm hopeful with some of the recent changes made to our rail system to have more of an all-day schedule, but I'm beginning to think I may never see it in my lifetime. LOL Plus I HATE to say it since I'm such a rail advocate, but it's still easier, faster, and more convenient to drive from Scituate to Boston rather than take the train for most "social" off-peak events. (I don't work in Boston.) I can't even begin to express my frustration at more than 2-hour headways on the Greenbush line and a generally inconvenient schedule. I find myself driving to Quincy Adams most of the time because the Red Line has such convenient headways.........even though I can walk to Greenbush Station in Scituate.
 
Part of the funding problem is that there is little comity at the federal level. It used to be that Texas politicians would vote for funding a Massachusetts project because they would get the votes for their projects when the time came. Now, it’s all “Stuff those folks, since they are not even human! It’s all for us!”
 
This is such a maddening take.

My immediate reaction was the same as yours, but on further reflection, maybe that also means the guy is saying the Feds should be kicking in more money because of the benefit to Amtrak. I'd be fully on board with that, as well as Maine, NH, RI, CT, NY, NJ, DE, etc. kicking in economically proportionate amounts - - those parties that stand to gain on a one seat ride option from Maine to DC and beyond.
 
My immediate reaction was the same as yours, but on further reflection, maybe that also means the guy is saying the Feds should be kicking in more money because of the benefit to Amtrak. I'd be fully on board with that, as well as Maine, NH, RI, CT, NY, NJ, DE, etc. kicking in economically proportionate amounts - - those parties that stand to gain on a one seat ride option from Maine to DC and beyond.

Agreed and on top of that those states should be kicking in politically as well.
 
I keep thinking we have to use other metro areas to convince politicians to get behind the NSRL. In just the last few years we have Cross River Rail in Brisbane, Australia; the Elizabeth Line in London; a second city rail tunnel in Munich......and many other excellent examples. I keep thinking that Eastern Massachusetts is not going to win against places like Austin or Charlotte for good weather and cost of living. However, if Massachusetts creates a regional rail system with the NSRL that is fast and convenient, it would be a HUGE game changer for this region against so many metro regions that are trying to poach our talent. I'm hopeful with some of the recent changes made to our rail system to have more of an all-day schedule, but I'm beginning to think I may never see it in my lifetime. LOL Plus I HATE to say it since I'm such a rail advocate, but it's still easier, faster, and more convenient to drive from Scituate to Boston rather than take the train for most "social" off-peak events. (I don't work in Boston.) I can't even begin to express my frustration at more than 2-hour headways on the Greenbush line and a generally inconvenient schedule. I find myself driving to Quincy Adams most of the time because the Red Line has such convenient headways.........even though I can walk to Greenbush Station in Scituate.

I agree with all of this, but I also want to give credit where it’s due. In the name of incremental progress: headways on the Greenbush Line, the lowest ridership Commuter Rail line in the system, are now better than two hours from 5:00 am through 7:00 pm in both directions on weekdays. That was not the case pre-COVID.

Pre-COVID, there were massive and inconsistent gaps in the schedule. No outbound Greenbush Line train left South Station between 11:50 am and 2:11 pm on weekdays! That’s a practice that’s unheard of anywhere in the network today.

Looking at the state of the system as a whole, where Orange and Red Line ridership and headways both lag very far behind pre-COVID, while the Commuter Rail outpaces them on both categories, it’s important to celebrate the successes to advocate for more frequent and consistent service. “It is working, it can be done, let’s do more of that to make it even better” is a successful narrative when it applies.

Next step: expanding the Fairmount Line’s success in frequent consistent service. More specifically, a great next step would be shortening the Providence Line weekend headways from 2 hours to 1.5 hours and watching ridership respond.
 
Interesting, because all I've heard about is empty parking lots and the MBTA hasn't restored peak frequencies

I'm a daily Lowell Line rider and the 75+% of pre-COVID feels pretty right to me. Every row has people in the seats, with many doubles holding two, and all triples holding at least 2. Only a few of the triples are fully occupied. Pre-COVID, I'd estimate all of the doubles would be full and some of the triples for my usual AM trains.
 
I agree with all of this, but I also want to give credit where it’s due. In the name of incremental progress: headways on the Greenbush Line, the lowest ridership Commuter Rail line in the system, are now better than two hours from 5:00 am through 7:00 pm in both directions on weekdays. That was not the case pre-COVID.

Agree it's better post-COVID. However as someone who wants to use the train off-peak for traveling to Boston after work for social events, the return train trips offered to me are every 2 hours or more on weekdays.
1670869602717.png



If I want to attend a concert, movie, lecture, or any event AFTER the majority of the workday, I have 2 train options 2 hours apart:

1670869896808.png
 
Agree it's better post-COVID. However as someone who wants to use the train off-peak for traveling to Boston after work for social events, the return train trips offered to me are every 2 hours or more on weekdays.
Snip

Weeknights and weekends are what you referring to.

Train 088 and 090 get to South Station within two hours of each other, so I considered them within two hours of one another and didn't look more closely, but you're right that is exactly a two-hour gap departing Greenbush on weekday afternoons.

More frequency on the Greenbush Line would make service better! That truth exists alongside the truth that the success in making the Commuter Rail more frequent and consistent (especially midday on weekdays) since pre-COVID has been a boon to ridership. In fact, those truths reinforce one another.
 
The evening timetables are awful. But my vague recollection is that some of that was imposed as "cost-cutting" (very much in air quotes) for reasons that at the time seemed purely political to me?

Which is to say, potentially those frequencies could be increased pretty easily with the right political support?
 

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