Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I'd put money on there being more than two people from Lynn, Salem, Lowell, or Waltham who work in the Back Bay or around South Station.

You are right and whighlander is very wrong. Northside to BBY/SS do happen today as two or three seat rides and ridership would boom (but crowds would spread out)from a mix of
Switching to 1 seat rides (or easier 2 seat connections) and new riders who can be drawn into the market (jobs at Tufts Medical and in the Seaport)

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

whighlander came in this morning and shat all over many threads. You know the routine. Move along and ignore him.

 

[whighlander]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I'd put money on there being more than two people from Lynn, Salem, Lowell, or Waltham who work in the Back Bay or around South Station.

uground -- those are not the myriad of "CR pairs"

The Somewhere N or NW to Back Bay or South Station or even the Seaport / Innovation District -- can be accommodated by a couple of changes using the subway

When you are talking the hundreds of CR pairs*1 buzzing about like electrons in a superconductor*2 -- being touted by the never-ending litany for the N--S Rail Link -- you are talking people commuting from the fringes of the system to the fringes of the system such as:

• Topfield to Forge Park
• Plymouth to Fitchburg or Devens
• W. Boylston to Beverly
• Kingston RI to Nashua NH

while there are undoubtably people doing such commutes :

• a) they are rare
• b) they most likely are the result of relocations of jobs and probably will be remedied by relocating their residence
• c) for that extreme a commute -- you want the convenience of a personal vehicle
• this still mostly not LA where suburb to suburb commutes of hour + are common

None of that is sufficient to justify $10B of digging and disrupting the inner fabric of our growing Hub


Copious Notes follow:

• 1 -- CR as in Commuter Rail -- pairs of stations on numerous lines with all the traffic funneling through the N-S rail link
  
• 2 Cooper Pairs in superconductors are pairs of electrons that travel essentially without friction from the 1972 Nobel Prize in Physics winning BCS theory [Bardeen, Cooper & Schrieffer]*3
  
• 3 double for the Cognoscenti -- the Bardeen is the same John Bardeen as in: 1956 Nobel Prize in Physics awarded jointly to William Bradford Shockley, John Bardeen and Walter Houser Brattain "for their researches on semiconductors and their discovery of the transistor effect".*4
  
• 4 really in the Physics weeds -- Bardeen was the first person to win two Nobel Prizes in the same category i.e. Physics *5,6
  
• 5 I gotta stop -- but here's the multiple punch line -- the first person to win two Nobels was the amazing Marie Curie, née Sklodowska who along with her Husband Pierre in 1903 for
  "in recognition of the extraordinary services they have rendered by their joint researches on the radiation phenomena discovered by Professor Henri Becquerel" and then as a widow -- The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1911 was awarded to Marie Curie "in recognition of her services to the advancement of chemistry by the discovery of the elements radium and polonium, by the isolation of radium and the study of the nature and compounds of this remarkable element".*7
  
• 6 hard to stop on a roll this exciting -- Bardeen only brought one of his 3 children to the 1956 Nobel Ceremony and King Gustav expressed annoyance -- Bardeen assured the King that the next time he would bring all his children to the ceremony -- and 16 years later he did!
  
• 7 -- the best for last -- in 1935 -- The Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded jointly to Frédéric Joliot and Irène Joliot-Curie "in recognition of their synthesis of new radioactive elements" -- that would be the daughter of Pierre and Marie -- the only father, mother and daughter to be Nobeled

 

[whighlander]

Re: North-South Rail Link

whighlander came in this morning and shat all over many threads. You know the routine. Move along and ignore him.

Bigeman -- you know the routine by now -- You might just possibly infinitesimally be better informed by not ignoring my posts -- because as opposed to some posters -- I do my homework

 

[fattony]

Re: North-South Rail Link

uground -- those are not the myriad of "CR pairs"

The Somewhere N or NW to Back Bay or South Station or even the Seaport / Innovation District -- can be accommodated by a couple of changes using the subway

When you are talking the hundreds of CR pairs*1 buzzing about like electrons in a superconductor*2 -- being touted by the never-ending litany for the N--S Rail Link -- you are talking people commuting from the fringes of the system to the fringes of the system such as:

• Topfield to Forge Park
• Plymouth to Fitchburg or Devens
• W. Boylston to Beverly
• Kingston RI to Nashua NH

while there are undoubtably people doing such commutes :

• a) they are rare
• b) they most likely are the result of relocations of jobs and probably will be remedied by relocating their residence
• c) for that extreme a commute -- you want the convenience of a personal vehicle
• this still mostly not LA where suburb to suburb commutes of hour + are common

None of that is sufficient to justify $10B of digging and disrupting the inner fabric of our growing Hub

These extreme end-to-end routes are all bullshit, but everyone knows that. The point is that the NSRL takes people OUT of the subways and subway transfer stations, greatly adding capacity to them. Even if NSRL didn't take a single car off the road (which it will) the benefits to the subways alone would justify the expense and the near-term disruption most certainly supports our long-term growth.

You have been around here long enough to know all this, why play stupid?

 

[ant8904]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Copious Notes follow:

• 1 -- CR as in Commuter Rail -- pairs of stations on numerous lines with all the traffic funneling through the N-S rail link
  
• 2 Cooper Pairs in superconductors are pairs of electrons that travel essentially without friction from the 1972 Nobel Prize in Physics winning BCS theory [Bardeen, Cooper & Schrieffer]*3
  
• 3 double for the Cognoscenti -- the Bardeen is the same John Bardeen as in: 1956 Nobel Prize in Physics awarded jointly to William Bradford Shockley, John Bardeen and Walter Houser Brattain "for their researches on semiconductors and their discovery of the transistor effect".*4
  
• 4 really in the Physics weeds -- Bardeen was the first person to win two Nobel Prizes in the same category i.e. Physics *5,6
  
• 5 I gotta stop -- but here's the multiple punch line -- the first person to win two Nobels was the amazing Marie Curie, née Sklodowska who along with her Husband Pierre in 1903 for
  "in recognition of the extraordinary services they have rendered by their joint researches on the radiation phenomena discovered by Professor Henri Becquerel" and then as a widow -- The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1911 was awarded to Marie Curie "in recognition of her services to the advancement of chemistry by the discovery of the elements radium and polonium, by the isolation of radium and the study of the nature and compounds of this remarkable element".*7
  
• 6 hard to stop on a roll this exciting -- Bardeen only brought one of his 3 children to the 1956 Nobel Ceremony and King Gustav expressed annoyance -- Bardeen assured the King that the next time he would bring all his children to the ceremony -- and 16 years later he did!
  
• 7 -- the best for last -- in 1935 -- The Nobel Prize in Chemistry was awarded jointly to Frédéric Joliot and Irène Joliot-Curie "in recognition of their synthesis of new radioactive elements" -- that would be the daughter of Pierre and Marie -- the only father, mother and daughter to be Nobeled

Wtf is this. Stuff to bullshit to kill time in a Filibuster?

 

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

The point is that the NSRL takes people OUT of the subways and subway transfer stations, greatly adding capacity to them. Even if NSRL didn't take a single car off the road (which it will) the benefits to the subways alone would justify the expense and the near-term disruption most certainly supports our long-term growth.

+1
Not just that it adds capacity, but that an expanded network is both a personal and system win: Every single user is free to consider re-optimize their trip for fewer connections and faster trips (benefits to themselves) and when they do it results in less crowded platforms and less crowded strains (benefits to others/"the system") Both work to increase ridership, increase access to better jobs, and lower car use.

 

[ant8904]

Re: North-South Rail Link

uground -- those are not the myriad of "CR pairs"

The Somewhere N or NW to Back Bay or South Station or even the Seaport / Innovation District -- can be accommodated by a couple of changes using the subway

When you are talking the hundreds of CR pairs*1 buzzing about like electrons in a superconductor*2 -- being touted by the never-ending litany for the N--S Rail Link -- you are talking people commuting from the fringes of the system to the fringes of the system such as:

• Topfield to Forge Park
• Plymouth to Fitchburg or Devens
• W. Boylston to Beverly
• Kingston RI to Nashua NH

while there are undoubtably people doing such commutes :

• a) they are rare
• b) they most likely are the result of relocations of jobs and probably will be remedied by relocating their residence
• c) for that extreme a commute -- you want the convenience of a personal vehicle
• this still mostly not LA where suburb to suburb commutes of hour + are common

None of that is sufficient to justify $10B of digging and disrupting the inner fabric of our growing Hub

Didn't I told to stop trying write in this style? It just overly verbose and space wasting over the value of making a succinct point (a point that I may see an argument - like is $8-10B worth the cost? - but you keep filling it up with space killing bull). You style may impress your clients as a consultant, but it just irritates and convolutes here.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Let's put in real, more specific terms. The fact of the matter is that many people currently travel, or want to travel:

• Between Providence and the North Station area for home/work (in Providence or the West End), transfers between Amtrak (Downeaster at North Station), or pleasure (Celtics/Bruins/concerts/Providence attractions). People now either don't make the trip (due to inconvenience), drive on an overcrowded I-93 and I-95, or use the overcrowded Orange Line between North Station and Back Bay. This would help to alleviate crowding on I-93, I-95, and the Orange Line, as well as spur more trips that would help our local economy.
• Between Salem and the South Station area for home/work (in Downtown Boston or Salem), transfers from Amtrak (NEC at South Station), or pleasure (Downtown Boston/Salem attractions). People now either don't make the trip (due to inconvenience), drive on an overcrowded Route 1, or use the overcrowded Orange/Green/Red Lines between North Station and Park St/DTX/South Station. This would help to alleviate crowding on Route 1, the Orange Line, the Red Line, and the Green Line, as well as spur more trips that would help our local economy.
• Between Salem and the Back Bay/South End/Fenway area for home/work (in Back Bay/South End/Fenway or Salem), transfers from Amtrak (NEC at Back Bay), or pleasure (Back Bay/South End/Fenway/Salem attractions). People now either don't make the trip (due to inconvenience), drive on an overcrowded Route 1, or use the overcrowded Orange/Green Lines between North Station and Back Bay. This would help to alleviate crowding on Route 1, the Orange Line, and the Green Line, as well as spur more trips that would help our local economy.

Now continue this list replacing Providence with every major South Side CR Station, and replacing Salem with every major North Side CR Station.

 

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I do my homework

Your homework is to produce some real ridership estimates, ideally taken from engineering studies. You have not done this homework.

Don't be the kid who hands in a 10-page report for a 5-page assignment 'cause so far 9 pages are irrelevant.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: North-South Rail Link

The point is that the NSRL takes people OUT of the subways and subway transfer stations, greatly adding capacity to them. Even if NSRL didn't take a single car off the road (which it will) the benefits to the subways alone would justify the expense and the near-term disruption most certainly supports our long-term growth.

YES. Thank you. People need to forget about NSRL commuters going from Salem to Norwood or any other myriad of routes. That might happen with a LOT of time and demographic shifts, but the immediate benefit to the Link is opening up subway capacity and helping the whole system run more smoothly.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

YES. Thank you. People need to forget about NSRL commuters going from Salem to Norwood or any other myriad of routes. That might happen with a LOT of time and demographic shifts, but the immediate benefit to the Link is opening up subway capacity and helping the whole system run more smoothly.

It's both. We won't see commuters use it from sparse_outer_burb-to-sparse_outer_burb, but for the inner-burbs and employment centers, there will be a lot of utilization. As an example, Weymouth to Waltham (and there are hundreds if not thousands of pairs that resemble this.) I work in a typical Waltham office setting, and many employees on the South Shore who currently drive would love to switch modes and save time, money, and sanity.

 

[whighlander]

Re: North-South Rail Link

These extreme end-to-end routes are all bullshit, but everyone knows that. The point is that the NSRL takes people OUT of the subways and subway transfer stations, greatly adding capacity to them. Even if NSRL didn't take a single car off the road (which it will) the benefits to the subways alone would justify the expense and the near-term disruption most certainly supports our long-term growth.

You have been around here long enough to know all this, why play stupid?

Fattony -- That's bogus illogical analysis and you should know it

If it takes something equivalent to the capacity of the Big Dig -- i.e. improving the access to Boston for the 300,000 cars carrying a minimum of 300,000 commuters per day to justify spending $20 B

Then to justify $10B on the Big Dig II -- aka the N-S rail link [$10 B is a realistic all-in cost of the N-S Rail link and its various accoutrements which will be demanded as compensation for disruption, etc.] -- then you had better make a similar-scale major impact on the entire subway and C-R -- maybe this would be through electrification of the core of the CR net -- Its certainly not through another very expensive tunnel

We have much much better ways to spend the limited Taxpayers' very valuable money than Boondoggle II

For example we could make a major down payment on improving access to the new downtown in the Seaport / Innovation district with its potential for 50 M sq ft of housing and office spaces ==> effecting some 30,000 to 40,000 people who will live and /or work there

 

[whighlander]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Let's put in real, more specific terms. The fact of the matter is that many people currently travel, or want to travel:

• Between Providence and the North Station area for home/work (in Providence or the West End), transfers between Amtrak (Downeaster at North Station), or pleasure (Celtics/Bruins/concerts/Providence attractions). People now either don't make the trip (due to inconvenience), drive on an overcrowded I-93 and I-95, or use the overcrowded Orange Line between North Station and Back Bay. This would help to alleviate crowding on I-93, I-95, and the Orange Line, as well as spur more trips that would help our local economy.
• Between Salem and the South Station area for home/work (in Downtown Boston or Salem), transfers from Amtrak (NEC at South Station), or pleasure (Downtown Boston/Salem attractions). People now either don't make the trip (due to inconvenience), drive on an overcrowded Route 1, or use the overcrowded Orange/Green/Red Lines between North Station and Park St/DTX/South Station. This would help to alleviate crowding on Route 1, the Orange Line, the Red Line, and the Green Line, as well as spur more trips that would help our local economy.
• Between Salem and the Back Bay/South End/Fenway area for home/work (in Back Bay/South End/Fenway or Salem), transfers from Amtrak (NEC at Back Bay), or pleasure (Back Bay/South End/Fenway/Salem attractions). People now either don't make the trip (due to inconvenience), drive on an overcrowded Route 1, or use the overcrowded Orange/Green Lines between North Station and Back Bay. This would help to alleviate crowding on Route 1, the Orange Line, and the Green Line, as well as spur more trips that would help our local economy.

Now continue this list replacing Providence with every major South Side CR Station, and replacing Salem with every major North Side CR Station.

Bigeman -- Unfortunately to justify spending $10B of the Taxpayers' scarce money you need a whole lot bigger a place of origin / destination than Salem [2,122] or Beverly [2,058] -- the two busiest stations North of Boston according to the 2014 Blue Book

In fact as of now there are only 3 other stations on the Northside where there are more than 1000 boardings:

Lowel [1,770]
North Billerica [1,076]
Anderson -- aka Woburn @ 128 [1,502]

How about we make the cut-off for a major stations @ 500 -- then we arrive at the following for boardings at major stations N of Boston all presumably bound for North Station:

• Rockport Line
  • Salem [2,122]
  • Beverly [2,058]
  • Swampscott [884]
  • Lynn [662]
  • Gloucester [590]
• Newburyport Line Newburyport [812]
• Haverhill Line
  • Reading [799]
  • Lawrence [722]
  • Wakefield [682]
  • Haverhill [576]
  • Andover [519]
• Lowell Line
  • Lowel [1,770]
  • Anderson -- aka Woburn @ 128 [1,502]
  • North Billerica [1,076]
  • West Medford [819]
  • Winchester Center [789]
  • Wilmington [544]
  • Wedgemere [512]
• Fitchburg Line
  • South Acton [902]
  • Waltham [610]
  • Concord [592]
  • West Concord [541]
  • Fitchburg [518]
    

and you can do the same with the boardings heading for Back Bay or south station

BUT -- how many people are really interested in crossing through Boston to get to another location

Since the CR is currently dominated by employment commuting -- I'm convinced that given the past and current employment geographics that if you survey people getting on at N or S Station or Back Bay in the evening that most walked or took a subway to the train station from their place of work

 

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

BUT -- how many people are really interested in crossing through Boston to get to another location

This is the question you were assigned to answer. Not current ridership at Northside CR, but *All* Northside demand (including those who currently use cars and those who at their next job-change might consider a South-CBD job) for destinations like Financial District, Seaport, Back Bay, Tufts, & Longwood. Your grade: Incomplete.

If thought experiments are acceptable, try this one: Would *employers* in these employment centers like to be able to *recruit* from Northside towns. Answer: Yes.

Would Northside talent, locked into current housing & communities, like to double their job-market access to these employment centers? Yes.

 

[CSTH]

Re: North-South Rail Link

For example we could make a major down payment on improving access to the new downtown in the Seaport / Innovation district with its potential for 50 M sq ft of housing and office spaces ==> effecting some 30,000 to 40,000 people who will live and /or work there

Dude - NSRL does this.

Unless you think you're actually talking about trying to get MORE cars in there?

 

[chmeeee]

Re: North-South Rail Link

If it takes something equivalent to the capacity of the Big Dig -- i.e. improving the access to Boston for the 300,000 cars carrying a minimum of 300,000 commuters per day to justify spending $20 B

Your numbers are a bit... off. 93 carries roughly 185k vehicles per day, that's roughly 92k people per day per direction entering from the south (MassDOT count @ Widett) and from the north (MassDOT count @ Zakim).

Commuter rail carries 76k inbound trips per day. For the purposes of this conversation, I'll ignore the 159k Orange Line and 217k Red Line passengers who would benefit from reduced congestion within the Downtown core.

Assuming NSRL would cost $8B and the Dig cost $24B, NSRL would benefit more users per dollar spent, and that does NOT account for the increased ridership that would result. Surely the Central Artery counts were lower than 185k/day pre-dig, because you couldn't squeeze that many through the old system no matter what you did.

 

[nico]

Re: North-South Rail Link

In addition to commuters, I thought there were additional freight benefits to a N-S link?

Also, is there any truth to the cost savings that Dukakis & Weld discuss in their Globe Opinion piece?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...h-rail-link/Q8F7VVAOFPl55HOf48JrEP/story.html

 

[deh74]

Re: North-South Rail Link

In addition to commuters, I thought there were additional freight benefits to a N-S link?

Also, is there any truth to the cost savings that Dukakis & Weld discuss in their Globe Opinion piece?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...h-rail-link/Q8F7VVAOFPl55HOf48JrEP/story.html

There wouldn't be any freight in the NSRL if it ever gets built since the link would likely be electrified and so diesel freight wouldn't be allowed in there because of the fumes that the locomotives would generate. I think this is the reason anyway.

 

[nico]

Re: North-South Rail Link

^Thanks. And for the cost savings?

"it will save the nearly $2 billion that we are now told will be needed to expand South and North Stations and the millions more for layover facilities in South Boston and Allston because of the growing congestion both stations face"