Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

bakgwailo said:
We'd need to follow JR's path in this: massive up front investment to shore up all the infrastructure and state of good repair, spin off the lines into their own quasi public/private companies and grant them essentially unlimited eminient domain rights around their stations/row, along with full control/build as of right on their properties. At which point we could eventually spin them off into private companies as lines become profitable. Except, that was at the Federal level in Japan, not the prefecture, and will almost certainly never happen here. Although, I do think the MBTA needs to be reimagined and giving them by right development powers around stations makes a ton of sense, as long as they are land leasing for development and not just selling it off.

Probably be able to fund a decent chunk of electrification and station upgrades in that model, but the $4-10 billon NSRL? That's not very feasible.
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What % of CR stations are not in NIMBY controlled suburban towns with hyper restrictive zoning? Any funding plan like this would be tied up in courts for decades.
 
JeffDowntown said:
What % of CR stations are not in NIMBY controlled suburban towns with hyper restrictive zoning? Any funding plan like this would be tied up in courts for decades.
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Like I wrote, you would need to give this agency by right zoning on it's land to supersede local zoning, and, again, even just that is going to be pretty tough unless the State has some pretty heavy handed measures for non compliance for cities and towns. Not saying it is easy, just a proven model around the world that seems to work for public transit.
 
While we're at it, can I have a pony, too?? (not a dig at @bakgwailo, just trying to echo the point about how unspeakably tough this would be to pull off in the current environment. In 30 years, however...)
bakgwailo said:
Like I wrote, you would need to give this agency by right zoning on it's land to supersede local zoning, and, again, even just that is going to be pretty tough unless the State has some pretty heavy handed measures for non compliance for cities and towns. Not saying it is easy, just a proven model around the world that seems to work for public transit.
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bakgwailo said:
Like I wrote, you would need to give this agency by right zoning on it's land to supersede local zoning, and, again, even just that is going to be pretty tough unless the State has some pretty heavy handed measures for non compliance for cities and towns. Not saying it is easy, just a proven model around the world that seems to work for public transit.
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Does the T really have enough developable land sitting around CR stations to make this effort worth the legal costs? The CR stations I am most familiar with on the North Shore are pretty land-locked with minimal parking and that is about it. Those small parking lots are not going to be a development bonanza.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Does the T really have enough developable land sitting around CR stations to make this effort worth the legal costs? The CR stations I am most familiar with on the North Shore are pretty land-locked with minimal parking and that is about it. Those small parking lots are not going to be a development bonanza.
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There's really not many places where there is a significant amount of land up for development around the CR. Obviously there's plenty of stations where you could fit a condo building here, an apartment block there, etc, but that's way to minor to justify significant top-down zoning enforcement. I would say that the large parcel shortlist is:
  • Wonderland Racetrack (But this also applies to BLX or a cross Chelsea line to avoid increasing travel times on the CR)
  • River Works (Again, also applies to BLX and arguably makes more sense to be paired with that and have the CR stop removed)
  • Widett Circle, but development costs are going to be quite high here
  • Anderson/Woburn and Mishawum, I would consider this the best option on this list
  • Dedham Corporate Center
  • Mansfield Industrial Park
  • Maybe Littleton/495 or Canton Center but those are both pretty sizable ifs
It's also worth noting that most of these sites are directly adjacent to a highway, they haven't been developed heavily for a reason.
 
TheRatmeister said:
There's really not many places where there is a significant amount of land up for development around the CR. Obviously there's plenty of stations where you could fit a condo building here, an apartment block there, etc, but that's way to minor to justify significant top-down zoning enforcement. I would say that the large parcel shortlist is:
  • Wonderland Racetrack (But this also applies to BLX or a cross Chelsea line to avoid increasing travel times on the CR)
  • River Works (Again, also applies to BLX and arguably makes more sense to be paired with that and have the CR stop removed)
  • Widett Circle, but development costs are going to be quite high here
  • Anderson/Woburn and Mishawum, I would consider this the best option on this list
  • Dedham Corporate Center
  • Mansfield Industrial Park
  • Maybe Littleton/495 or Canton Center but those are both pretty sizable ifs
It's also worth noting that most of these sites are directly adjacent to a highway, they haven't been developed heavily for a reason.
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For the two North Shore on your list:

Wonderland Racetrack -- site had been up for constant debate in Revere for a decade or more. Current push is to put a new high school there -- not really very CR facing as a development.
River Works -- Lynn has a planning grant to study moving the station about 0.3 miles into West Lynn and then surrounding it with TOD. Lynn Mayor Nicholson is all over this project and wants to see it happen.
itemlive.com

Lynn receives grant to upgrade MBTA Commuter Rail station

LYNN — Moving the River Works commuter rail station a third of a mile north of its present location and making it accessible to the public is a big part of a new vision for public transportation in West Lynn. In recent weeks, it was announced that the city had received $561,000 through the U.S. […]
itemlive.com itemlive.com
 
TheRatmeister said:
There's really not many places where there is a significant amount of land up for development around the CR. Obviously there's plenty of stations where you could fit a condo building here, an apartment block there, etc, but that's way to minor to justify significant top-down zoning enforcement. I would say that the large parcel shortlist is:
  • Wonderland Racetrack (But this also applies to BLX or a cross Chelsea line to avoid increasing travel times on the CR)
  • River Works (Again, also applies to BLX and arguably makes more sense to be paired with that and have the CR stop removed)
  • Widett Circle, but development costs are going to be quite high here
  • Anderson/Woburn and Mishawum, I would consider this the best option on this list
  • Dedham Corporate Center
  • Mansfield Industrial Park
  • Maybe Littleton/495 or Canton Center but those are both pretty sizable ifs
It's also worth noting that most of these sites are directly adjacent to a highway, they haven't been developed heavily for a reason.
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Isn't the land around Anderson/Woburn practically a Superfund site?

Plus most of those are all in millenial-unfriendly areas.
 
JeffDowntown said:
River Works -- Lynn has a planning grant to study moving the station about 0.3 miles into West Lynn and then surrounding it with TOD. Lynn Mayor Nicholson is all over this project and wants to see it happen.
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Maybe they should wait until GE inevitably leaves... although not sure how developable the land is.
 
jklo said:
Isn't the land around Anderson/Woburn practically a Superfund site?

Plus most of those are all in millenial-unfriendly areas.
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Look I didn't say these were good ideas, especially the second half of the list.
JeffDowntown said:
Wonderland Racetrack -- site had been up for constant debate in Revere for a decade or more. Current push is to put a new high school there -- not really very CR facing as a development
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You're right, and this is part of why I generally think it fits better into a cross Revere-Chelsea line. But it is next to the CR so it does get a spot on this list since it is at least an option.
JeffDowntown said:
River Works -- Lynn has a planning grant to study moving the station about 0.3 miles into West Lynn and then surrounding it with TOD. Lynn Mayor Nicholson is all over this project and wants to see it happen.
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Agreed, I just think it makes more sense as a BL station that connects to Revere and East Boston.
 
TheRatmeister said:
Agreed, I just think it makes more sense as a BL station that connects to Revere and East Boston.
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I figure for Lynn, CR now, BLX later, so long as the design is future proofed.

We've only been talking about BLX for what, 60 years? No one in Lynn believes it is happening in our lifetime.
 
IMG_0364.jpeg


https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/...9 CIP - April Full Board as of 2024-04-24.pdf
 
themissinglink said:
www.bostonglobe.com

Boston could transform its disjointed rail system with a connection that runs through North and South stations - The Boston Globe

Congressman Seth Moulton has become a massive proponent of an almost 3-mile stretch of tunnel that would connect the north and south sides of our severed commuter rail system.
www.bostonglobe.com www.bostonglobe.com
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Moulton has been flapping his gums for 8+ years now about needing to "go big" on NSRL. It's yet to translate into any legislative action whatsoever on his part. He's long ago descended into self-parody.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Moulton has been flapping his gums for 8+ years now about needing to "go big" on NSRL. It's yet to translate into any legislative action whatsoever on his part. He's long ago descended into self-parody.
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What sway does he have if the Governor and legislature don’t openly endorse it? I think using the bully pulpit of a House Rep to bring attention and pressure to get the state behind it is the best that he can do. It would be better if he, Markey, Warren, and others were openly calling out the Governor to endorse it. I don’t think he is likely to directly disparage the Governor without more backing.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Moulton has been flapping his gums for 8+ years now about needing to "go big" on NSRL. It's yet to translate into any legislative action whatsoever on his part. He's long ago descended into self-parody.
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He commissioned this report from the Kennedy School. The thin details released so far make it seem like a direct refutation of the 2019 Reassessment's cost estimates. Moulton's report puts quad-tracked NSRL at $7.6 billion, instead of ~$18 billion. It's explicitly calling out the misleading way the 2019 Reassessment inflated the price by including other costs like electrification and a new fleet of trains. And this new report looks like it will go into detail on the economic benefits of NSRL.

So I don't know, this seems good. One member of our congressional delegation is actually advocating for NSRL. I'm not sure what legislative action you think would have been possible for him in the past 8+ years. But this report seems like he's using his office to build support around the project.
 
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