Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

He's long ago descended into self-parody.

Or, he's merely descended into Kabuki theater-style calisthenics, telegraphing his desire to run NU's Dukakis Center once he leaves Congress? (just a guess; zero insider knowledge)

Landsmark turns 79 next May.

Anyway, I'm just as disgusted as you, at least in terms of the flagrant puff piece-nature of this article. (A "massive" proponent.) That it's a puff piece tells us how fundamentally unserious his advocacy is. If he was advocating for it a non self-serving fashion, then obviously he would have asked the Globe to hold off on publishing anything until there was tangible progress to announce that would generate meaningful momentum.

But there of course there is no progress to announce, so how can one interpret as anything other than "look at me! I'm eligible, once I return to the dreaded private sector" Kabuki theater.
 
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According to the Kennedy School analysis, South Station Expansion — SSX – would likely cost $4 billion and return about $7 billion in benefits after 20 years. Those benefits include increased fare revenue, saved commuter time, and carbon reduction. They estimate it would increase ridership by 6 million trips per year.

A four-track Rail Link would cost $7.9 billion but the study calculated its benefits at upward of $31 billion over those 20 years. That’s because an efficient regional rail system would spur way more housing and development, and grow ridership by 86 million trips per year.
Woohoo!

(~$1B per mile for the win!)

a true regional rail network that would allow you to get everywhere from everywhere. Lynn to Braintree? Worcester to Rockport?
Booooooo! Why are we still talking about it like this?
  • Lynn to Braintree Longwood
  • Braintree to Lynn Bulfinch Triangle
  • Worcester to Rockport Sullivan Sq/Assembly
  • Rockport to Worcester fricking Back Bay
The article doesn't mention the Orange Line once.

I really really really appreciate the tireless advocacy for NSRL. I just really wish they would change how they talk about it.

Also:

1718548928489.png


Alright, I'm adding "new North South Rail Link diagram" to my to-do list.
 
Booooooo! Why are we still talking about it like this?
  • Lynn to Braintree Longwood
  • Braintree to Lynn Bulfinch Triangle
  • Worcester to Rockport Sullivan Sq/Assembly
  • Rockport to Worcester fricking Back Bay
The article doesn't mention the Orange Line once.

I really really really appreciate the tireless advocacy for NSRL. I just really wish they would change how they talk about it.
Fully agree. Even in an NSRL world, not every branch will get through-running trains to every other branch on the opposite side, so Lynn having a one-seat ride to Braintree means it loses one-seat rides to Worcester, Providence, etc. (Granted, it offers a much more convenient transfer than the status quo, but it's still not what this kind of advocacy makes it out to be.)

This is far from the worst thing in the world, but it opens the door for critics like "why are we spending multi-billion dollars so that a couple dozen people can go from Rockport to Worcester faster?"
 
Booooooo! Why are we still talking about it like this?
  • Lynn to Braintree Longwood
  • Braintree to Lynn Bulfinch Triangle
  • Worcester to Rockport Sullivan Sq/Assembly
  • Rockport to Worcester fricking Back Bay
I think better yet: "One seat ride from Salem to Fenway! Braintree straight to the Garden!"
Not the most practical. But people might care more.
 
I’m on my phone, so the screenshot is low-res, and it’s still in progress/a proof of concept, but…

1718558107842.jpeg


(I have higher hopes for modifying the official Commuter Rail map.)
 
What sway does he have if the Governor and legislature don’t openly endorse it? I think using the bully pulpit of a House Rep to bring attention and pressure to get the state behind it is the best that he can do. It would be better if he, Markey, Warren, and others were openly calling out the Governor to endorse it. I don’t think he is likely to directly disparage the Governor without more backing.
The problem is Moulton used the bully pulpit on this a lot in his first term in office (see the link in my last post for the discussion on this thread 8 years ago re: that), and that was all well and good. But then he got sidetracked by quixotic challenges to the Speaker, quixotic Presidential bids, and running his lucrative PAC. There was a solid half-decade where he wasn't saying boo about local transit, so that passion apparently only ran skin-deep. Now he's doing it loudly again, presumably because he doesn't have a national attention angle and needs to shore up his local cred. He's been loud, but inconsistent *at best* in effort. And that hurts when it's a long-game, multi-Administration advocacy effort like this. He simply wasn't there for most of the last decade. Markey, honestly, has been more year-in/year-out consistent in his NSRL advocacy. He just doesn't have a bullhorn for a mouth like Moulton does to apparently grab the short-attention span of the Globe.

Good on him if he's going to be serious about keeping this up. But forgive me if I'm a little pessimistic given his history of dissapearing for years on-end.
 
Booooooo! Why are we still talking about it like this?
  • Lynn to Braintree Longwood
  • Braintree to Lynn Bulfinch Triangle
  • Worcester to Rockport Sullivan Sq/Assembly
  • Rockport to Worcester fricking Back Bay
The article doesn't mention the Orange Line once.

I really really really appreciate the tireless advocacy for NSRL. I just really wish they would change how they talk about it.

I'd be really interested in some focus group data on this. I think for transit advocates and people who work in government this framing is an obvious better statement of the benefits for the region and the long term macro economy. But then I was thinking how when I was regularly commuting Quincy-Lynn that transit was an absolute non-starter...and then how awful it was trying to take transit to Salem that one time...and then that other time to Swampscott...or how I didn't even bother trying to get to my friend's wedding in Portland that way because of bad past experiences...and then how getting to Worcester for a conference was going to take double the time on the CR. Whereas I wouldn't think twice about Quincy (Adams, mind you, so basically Braintree) and any of those destinations you mentioned. All of those you mentioned are already pretty straightforward two seat rides. I don't think telling someone they're going to knock a few minutes off a trip they're already making is as compelling to the average voter as "these places that you would never even consider going to by rail will now be open to it."
 
I'd be really interested in some focus group data on this. I think for transit advocates and people who work in government this framing is an obvious better statement of the benefits for the region and the long term macro economy. But then I was thinking how when I was regularly commuting Quincy-Lynn that transit was an absolute non-starter...and then how awful it was trying to take transit to Salem that one time...and then that other time to Swampscott...or how I didn't even bother trying to get to my friend's wedding in Portland that way because of bad past experiences...and then how getting to Worcester for a conference was going to take double the time on the CR. Whereas I wouldn't think twice about Quincy (Adams, mind you, so basically Braintree) and any of those destinations you mentioned. All of those you mentioned are already pretty straightforward two seat rides. I don't think telling someone they're going to knock a few minutes off a trip they're already making is as compelling to the average voter as "these places that you would never even consider going to by rail will now be open to it."
The narrative is missing the frequency angle. Yes, there are some useful one-seat rides enabled by run-thru. But it's the combination of Regional Rail frequencies + NSRL that enables a whole universe of grab-and-go two-seat rides that puts once out-of-reach destinations within reach. The transfer utility cranks up to the moon. But if you don't emphasize that the frequencies are going to be dense to begin with (by implementing Regional Rail on the existing system), then a whole lot denser when NSRL doubles-up the terminal district's capacity, yeah...that "Worcester! Rockport!" sloganeering falls on deaf ears because people will just assume it's no better than hourly-at-peak and that you have to get lucky to hit a useful transfer from one part of the unified system to the next.

Unfortunately the official political advocacy has been whiffing on this very key point for 20 years now.
 
I'd be really interested in some focus group data on this. I think for transit advocates and people who work in government this framing is an obvious better statement of the benefits for the region and the long term macro economy. But then I was thinking how when I was regularly commuting Quincy-Lynn that transit was an absolute non-starter...and then how awful it was trying to take transit to Salem that one time...and then that other time to Swampscott...or how I didn't even bother trying to get to my friend's wedding in Portland that way because of bad past experiences...and then how getting to Worcester for a conference was going to take double the time on the CR. Whereas I wouldn't think twice about Quincy (Adams, mind you, so basically Braintree) and any of those destinations you mentioned. All of those you mentioned are already pretty straightforward two seat rides. I don't think telling someone they're going to knock a few minutes off a trip they're already making is as compelling to the average voter as "these places that you would never even consider going to by rail will now be open to it."
I think you raise great points, and I also would love to get some real focus group data. The point about the full range of non-Boston-centered commutes that become viable via transit with a 1SR/2SR NSRL is well-taken -- not necessarily a particularly singular node, but definitely a wide spread.

The examples I gave could indeed all be covered by 2SRs, although from Braintree we would have to cheat -- Bulfinch Triangle is only a 2SR via the Red Line. A more pertinent example might be "Brockton <> Bulfinch Triangle". But, two points for further consideration:

First, IIRC there is data suggesting that there are meaningfully distinct "North Station" and "South Station" job markets. That suggests that even though something like Lynn -> North Station -> Longwood via CR + Orange looks like a reasonable 2SR, it might still be unpalatable to some commuters.

Anecdotally: for a while I worked in the Financial District, about a 12 minute walk from South Station. Now, coming from Providence my overall commute was already pretty long, but that 12-minute walk was one last turn of the screw -- I would not have considered taking a job further north in downtown due to the reduced connectivity from Southside CR.

Which, coincidentally, brings us to my second point: the Orange Line does a lot of heavy lifting to handle that "last 2 miles" problem. Again, anecdotally: occasionally, when it was raining or snowing, I would alight at Back Bay instead of South Station and (try to) take the Orange Line. Routinely, a train would arrive packed to the gills... you could maybe squeeze on, but that's a big maybe. Sometimes I would let the train pass and wait for the next... only to find the same condition there. This is what I mean about the Orange Line being "the original North South Rail Link"; our modern system's reliance on legacy ROWs combined with the age of downtown Boston's density creates a gap in an otherwise relatively robust network, right in the heart of the city.

As a thought exercise, I imagined iterations of the legacy network where a cross-downtown tunnel was built early on. I then imagined a network with two such tunnels, and suddenly we've got something that looks very similar to a NSRL RER network + a fantasy-level expanded Orange Line:

1718567976896.png


Ironically, I think that one of the other maps I drew -- imagining a single tunnel and the ensuing capacity/frequency constraints -- is more illustrative here:

1718568016034.png


The point being that there's a huge span of territory in Metro Boston that gets funneled in to the modern Orange Line, which is forced to carry all but the Fitchburg, Fairmount, and Old Colony Line, almost exclusively on its shoulders. (The Green Line debatably shoulders this burden as well, though I'd argue less so.)

tl;dr: Two-seat-rides sometimes are okay, and sometimes they really suck, especially if the second seat is on the Orange Line. A full-build North-South Rail Link would drastically relieve the Orange Line, provide speedy 1SRs for all to Back Bay, South Station, and North Station, provide speedy 1SRs to Longwood Back Bay for many, and provide easy 2SRs to Longwood [for most] and the Seaport for all.

(I know I'm preaching to the converted here, and like I said I share your interest in which message resonates more. Probably in reality the most effective iteration would be a combined one.)
 
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1SRs to Longwood for many
I'm going to have to dispute this. In terms of serving Longwood, Ruggles/Lansdowne aren't bad but they're also not close, and the 47 bus shows a pretty clear flow from Ruggles to Longwood. If we accept dropping people almost a mile away as a 1SR then sure, but I don't think that's what most people have in mind. Urban Ring is what's needed for Longwood and anything else is a pretty distant second.
 
A full-build North-South Rail Link would drastically relieve the Orange Line, provide speedy 1SRs for all to Back Bay, South Station, and North Station, provide speedy 1SRs to Longwood for many, and provide easy 2SRs to Longwood and the Seaport for all.
Correction: The Old Colony Lines, as well as the northside trains that through-run to Old Colony, won't have Back Bay access.

I'm going to have to dispute this. In terms of serving Longwood, Ruggles/Lansdowne aren't bad but they're also not close, and the 47 bus shows a pretty clear flow from Ruggles to Longwood. If we accept dropping people almost a mile away as a 1SR then sure, but I don't think that's what most people have in mind. Urban Ring is what's needed for Longwood and anything else is a pretty distant second.
Are you talking about the last-mile ride from Ruggles to LMA, with the possible additional connections at Lansdowne/West Station and somewhere on the Old Colony line?

Long story short, I think that's likely one of the few (if not only) ways that Urban Ring is relevant for mainline rail access to LMA. I can't imagine northside riders preferring it over the Green Line at North Station, and possibly a reconfigured Green Line at South Station.
 
You’re both totally right. It’s a 2SR to Longwood for all except OC, and it’s a 2SR for OC to Back Bay. With regard to Back Bay, I was thinking about the improvement specifically for riders who currently use the Orange Line to make the final leg of the journey — for them, it’ll be an OSR. But totally right that Longwood is a 2SR at best (until/unless the Gold Line/GLR concept comes to fruition).
 
I can't imagine northside riders preferring it over the Green Line at North Station
Assuming 20 MPH speeds, the Inman/Harvard route and a new Community College superstation, travel time would be about 18 minutes from CC to LMA, compared with 23 minutes today from North Station to LMA (E Branch). With a new, more central LMA station and a transfer at CC that's a lot better than the North Station transfer I think it would be at least quite competitive, although it would definitely depend on where your final destination was. (Via GJ and bypassing West Station it's more like 12 minutes, for reference. In this case I think it's fair to say that it's the clear winner.)
and possibly a reconfigured Green Line at South Station.
If an UR transfer is available at Widett Circle it would probably be faster every time. If it's not, then yes Fairmount and OC would be better served by GLRC.
 
Assuming 20 MPH speeds, the Inman/Harvard route and a new Community College superstation, travel time would be about 18 minutes from CC to LMA, compared with 23 minutes today from North Station to LMA (E Branch). With a new, more central LMA station and a transfer at CC that's a lot better than the North Station transfer I think it would be at least quite competitive, although it would definitely depend on where your final destination was. (Via GJ and bypassing West Station it's more like 12 minutes, for reference. In this case I think it's fair to say that it's the clear winner.)
Edit: I only found out after writing this comment that I didn't assume GL Reconfiguration to begin with, so comparisons to the E branch streetcar can still make sense. I do maintain that building GLR is at least as reasonable as building an Urban Ring.

Original comment:
I'm not sure why we're comparing a 20 mph* grade-separated Urban Ring to a streetcar past Symphony, when it's much easier to grade-separate the E branch than to build any Urban Ring, especially one through Harvard (extremely roundabout but at least not uncommon in proposals) and Community College (I haven't seen anyone else other than yourself calling for it). When comparing travel times to a Longwood/Huntington station (the E's LMA today), the Huntington subway and other improvements from GLR should easily bring up the E to the 18-min figure that you mentioned, if not even faster. At least, in terms of distance, the E should be easily shorter than any Harvard ring.

You do have a good point about the location of the LMA station itself, but as you mentioned, that's also highly dependent on the exact location within LMA. Plus, not all Urban Ring proposals have a centrally located LMA station, especially those that are uncomfortable with a deep bored tunnel under Longwood Ave. (The official Urban Ring Phase III alignment does use Longwood Ave, but the station is as far east as Louis Pasteur, which almost washes out any time savings.)

* I also don't think any subway line in Boston achieved 20 mph pre-Covid except the ultra-long-spacing sections of the Red Line, and having such stop spacings on the UR is clearly undesirable.
 
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Edit: I only found out after writing this comment that I didn't assume GL Reconfiguration to begin with, so comparisons to the E branch streetcar can still make sense
I was assuming GLRC but didn't say it so that negates this I guess? Anyways, new travel time comparison:
I'm not sure why we're comparing a 20 mph* grade-separated Urban Ring to a streetcar past Symphony
Fair enough. I'm instead going to use the existing travel time to Boylston and then assume 20 MPH average to LMA, which brings travel times down to about 17 minutes. Nice to know I'm alright at guesstimating I suppose. Overall still pretty close and I think it would still really depend on where your final destination was exactly. You're right that it's a shorter distance, but North Station to Boylston, and particularly Haymarket to Park St, will probably always be quite slow unfortunately.
* I also don't think any subway line in Boston achieved 20 mph pre-Covid except the ultra-long-spacing sections of the Red Line, and having such stop spacings on the UR is clearly undesirable.
According to the TM data the historical max speed on the BL was 20.5 mph.
(The official Urban Ring Phase III alignment does use Longwood Ave, but the station is as far east as Louis Pasteur, which almost washes out any time savings.)
That's still at least a 5 minute walk from Huntington, it's not nothing, especially when it's really cold.

Anyways, UR is really important for LMA and any future discussion (and this message too now that I think about it) should probably go to another board.
 
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Assuming 20 MPH speeds
I hate to rehash this, but this is a very strong claim to imply an average speed of 20 mph is possible here. I went looking outside of Boston to get a couple of broader examples:

average speedaverage stop spacing
WMATA Red, Fort Totten <> Union Station (4 stops)22.8 mph1 mile
NYCMTA 1, 125 St <> Times Sq (11 stops, local)16.8 mph0.41 miles
NYCMTA 5, 125 St <> 59 St (2 stops, express)24.4 mph1.6 miles

And like Teban54 said, the numbers are lower here:

Red Line's highwater mark was 21.2mph, averaging 17.5:
1718643062134.png


Orange was 18mph, averaging 16mph:

1718643082134.png


Blue's was 20.5mph, averaging 18.9:
1718643136708.png


In all three cases, the max occurred during the first covid lockdown. By my eyeballing, the historical max for all other times was about 1 or 1.5mph slower.

Your Harvard/Inman route looks like it has stop spacing of about .66 miles, while your GJ route has spacings of .44 miles. The only scenario I've seen so far where the average (not maximum) speed hits 20+mph is when the stop spacing is at least 1 mile. For the conditions you are describing, something in the neighborhood of 17mph seems much more reasonable.
 
I'll reply to the rightfully relocated Urban Ring discussion in that thread. Going back to the Regional Rail discussion, though: it occurs to me that in a post-NSRL (non-Urban Ring) world, the Orange Line would be relieved of most of its cross-core responsibilities, with Regional Rail directly serving Downtown and Back Bay, and serving Longwood and Seaport via a short transfer/long walk. Assuming no Urban Ring, that leaves two of the largest remaining cores -- Kendall, and Harvard -- accessible only by transfer to the Red Line, in much the same way that Back Bay is accessible to today's Northside riders only via transfer to the Orange Line.

This is another illustration of how today's system recapitulates the idiosyncrasies of the mid-18th century moment, freezing in time the particular geographies that existed 175 years ago. The physically older parts of the region -- Downtown, Boston Neck, Cambridge, even Charlestown and Southie -- are the ones avoided by legacy railroad ROWs, and thus dependent on grade-separated rapid transit infrastructure (most of which dates from 120 years ago, but also frozen in time).
 
So this mentions that the full NSRL report would be released Monday, but has anyone seen that? Know where to find it? I've only seen some slides and press release.
 
So this mentions that the full NSRL report would be released Monday, but has anyone seen that? Know where to find it? I've only seen some slides and press release.

I think I found the same slides as you. Not much here besides an alignment endorsement but I am not super familiar with eg. if the "advocates" long settled on the artery alignment.

I know the deep underground stations are a cost driver but 2.9 miles of TBM, come on! at this point hire a european country to do it and pay them 2x of whatever it costs them to do it. Just get it done.

1718724580991.png
 

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