Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

[bigeman312]

Re: North-South Rail Link

So a passenger can easily travel from Edinburgh to Paris by changing trains only once in London, and he or she never needs to take the Tube or even step outside. This is a MUCH easier transfer than Boston North Station to Boston South Station.

Exactly. This pretty much describes the situation that WOULD exist after the N-S Link is built, and does not resemble the current situation in Boston at all.

 

[Semass]

Re: North-South Rail Link

The point is also to keep lots and lots of people arriving by commuter rail OUT of the subway. Right now the transfers from Back Bay to Orange, South Station to Red, and North station to Green/Orange suck tons of capacity out of the subway system. If you can get more people to destinations on a single mode without transferring to a second mode you bought yourself a bunch of space on the overloaded core.

 

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

The point is also to keep lots and lots of people arriving by commuter rail OUT of the subway. Right now the transfers from Back Bay to Orange, South Station to Red, and North station to Green/Orange suck tons of capacity out of the subway system. If you can get more people to destinations on a single mode without transferring to a second mode you bought yourself a bunch of space on the overloaded core.

^ Zactly. the NSRL serves *all* of:

A SMALL NUMBER OF HIGH-VALUE "Big Ticket" TRIPS
- Amtrak, NH & Maine (whose support we'll need)
- Woburn, Lowell, Haverhill, & Gloucester people who want to get to NY
- Inland and NEC <-> Northside
- Logan Airport passengers who'll get more direct flights to more secondary and global destinations as "boring" NEC trips (&park+fly trips) switch to rail as Amtrak is able to operate more frequencies on the NEC&Inland.

A MODERATE NUMBER OF MODERATE "CR-Fare" VALUE TRIPS
- through commuters (who many not really materialize),
- Two-seat commutes that become 1 seat (that Semass cites)

A HUGE NUMBER OF DAILY "Transit-Fare" TRIPS
- Red & Orange & Green commutes that shift entirely to NSRL
- CR-connections that stop clogging the core RL/OL/GL (that Semass cites)
- A huge boom in the speed & efficiency of core RL/OL/GL trips (that Semass notes, above)

In this way, NSRL is a huge collateral win for Brookline, Longwood, and Cambridge as their preferred lines become able to power both faster growth and faster trips because "others" have given up their seats.

 

[tangent]

Re: North-South Rail Link

^ Zactly. the NSRL serves *all* of:

A SMALL NUMBER OF HIGH-VALUE "Big Ticket" TRIPS
- Amtrak, NH & Maine (whose support we'll need)
- Woburn, Lowell, Haverhill, & Gloucester people who want to get to NY
- Inland and NEC <-> Northside
- Logan Airport passengers who'll get more direct flights to more secondary and global destinations as "boring" NEC trips (&park+fly trips) switch to rail as Amtrak is able to operate more frequencies on the NEC&Inland.

A MODERATE NUMBER OF MODERATE "CR-Fare" VALUE TRIPS
- through commuters (who many not really materialize),
- Two-seat commutes that become 1 seat (that Semass cites)

A HUGE NUMBER OF DAILY "Transit-Fare" TRIPS
- Red & Orange & Green commutes that shift entirely to NSRL
- CR-connections that stop clogging the core RL/OL/GL (that Semass cites)
- A huge boom in the speed & efficiency of core RL/OL/GL trips (that Semass notes, above)

In this way, NSRL is a huge collateral win for Brookline, Longwood, and Cambridge as their preferred lines become able to power both faster growth and faster trips because "others" have given up their seats.

Assuming all that value is created, and I agree there is a lot of value there, the flip side of the coin is how do you keep costs down? We are talking about a bit over a mile of tunnel under part of the densest most complicated (underground and above) part of the city.

I thought when they dropped N-S Link from the big dig planning that they somehow accounted for/accommodated some N-S tunnel. Is there some tunnel right of way that has already been identified and is already planned for that could be leveraged to keep costs down?

All those utilities got moved and upgraded as part of the big dig, so I really really hope that they had a detailed plan for adding the N-S link that we can just dust off now and utilize new tunneling technology and techniques to move the rocks and dirt. So question: What planning/design work from the CA/T project can be leveraged?

 

[citylover94]

Re: North-South Rail Link

As has been mentioned many times before the path under the CA/T was cleared and then filled with dirt and is the path the link would follow that has been decided for a very long time. The tunnel should not cost more per mile than the second avenue subway which yes is outrageously overpriced but assuming the same cost per mile the Link Tunnel would cost about 6.9 billion at 2.3 billion per mile this includes the portals in the length of the tunnel. At high costs on other similar tunnels around the world it would cost about 3 billion at 1 billion per mile.

 

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I thought when they dropped N-S Link from the big dig planning that they somehow accounted for/accommodated some N-S tunnel. Is there some tunnel right of way that has already been identified and is already planned for that could be leveraged to keep costs down?

Yes they did. There was a void left (generally between the inner slurry walls of the tunnels we drive) that was completely excavated and utilities relocated. I think of it as the tunnel having three boxes: Southbound, NSRL, and Northbound but the NSRL box has only dirt on its top and bottom (except that the top has utility ducts across it and the bottom has the Blue Line tube under it. It was then backfilled with what F-Line describes it as "clean fill" (dirt free of boulders or toxins). A standard earth tunneling machine (that builds and lines its tunnel as it goes) should handle it.

The path is pretty winding, both horizontally (arcing under the Rose Kennedy Greenway) and vertically (it has to pass over or under or alongside a series of obstacles like the Red, Silver, & Blue tunnels (just like the highway has to).

All this incline-decline (which highway traffic takes in stride but engine-pulled trains don't like) is what mandates electrification and comes close to mandating EMU (a motor on every axle) to have the power/weight ratio sufficient to climb in and out.

The tricky bit is the approaches which must be done at North Station (around the Green & Orange & under the CR, Zakim, Charles River, and Northside rail throat) and at South Station (under the surface rails and, if you want to get to the Old Colony I think it has to go under the Fort Point Channel I-90 tunnel, which is pretty close to having its roof on the bottom of the Channel in front of Gillette)

Maybe F-line will say how much fore-construction and void-leaving went into the approaches. My sense is that they left themselves lots of options but no pre-dug path.

 

[tangent]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Yes they did. There was a void left (generally between the inner slurry walls of the tunnels we drive) that was completely excavated and utilities relocated. I think of it as the tunnel having three boxes: Southbound, NSRL, and Northbound but the NSRL box has only dirt on its top and bottom (except that the top has utility ducts across it and the bottom has the Blue Line tube under it. It was then backfilled with what F-Line describes it as "clean fill" (dirt free of boulders or toxins). A standard earth tunneling machine (that builds and lines its tunnel as it goes) should handle it.

The path is pretty winding, both horizontally (arcing under the Rose Kennedy Greenway) and vertically (it has to pass over or under or alongside a series of obstacles like the Red, Silver, & Blue tunnels (just like the highway has to).

All this incline-decline (which highway traffic takes in stride but engine-pulled trains don't like) is what mandates electrification and comes close to mandating EMU (a motor on every axle) to have the power/weight ratio sufficient to climb in and out.

The tricky bit is the approaches which must be done at North Station (around the Green & Orange & under the CR, Zakim, Charles River, and Northside rail throat) and at South Station (under the surface rails and, if you want to get to the Old Colony I think it has to go under the Fort Point Channel I-90 tunnel, which is pretty close to having its roof on the bottom of the Channel in front of Gillette)

Maybe F-line will say how much fore-construction and void-leaving went into the approaches. My sense is that they left themselves lots of options but no pre-dug path.

Interesting. So would N-S actually be able to stop at North or South Stations? Thinking about that a bit more and it seems like you can't get the train into either Station because of the grade changes. In which case you lose a lot of selling points for the link if it is just a bypass.

 

[Arlington]

Re: North-South Rail Link

The NSRL has always assumed a multi-track multi-platform cavern deep under both North and South stations with elevators/escalators for easy connection to all other lines. A deep "Central Station" is an option at State Street with connection to Aquarium/State.

The cavern platforms are why Dukakis touts it as an alternative to SSX@USPS as a way of adding CR platform capacity

 

[Semass]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Interesting. So would N-S actually be able to stop at North or South Stations? Thinking about that a bit more and it seems like you can't get the train into either Station because of the grade changes. In which case you lose a lot of selling points for the link if it is just a bypass.

You would indeed get on the NSRL trains at North or South Station, just underground. Like at Penn or Philly. Some trains would still and always be surface ending trains. Old Colony lines and Fairmount do not justify run-throughs so they would dead end at SS, for example.

 

[tangent]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Okay, that makes sense. As does a connection to an existing station in the middle.

 

[whighlander]

Re: North-South Rail Link

This is quibbling over the details, but:

-Most trains from Edinburgh to London arrive at Kings Cross Station. Some also arrive at Euston Station.
-Trains from London to Paris leave from St Pancras Station.
-Kings Cross and St Pancras are actually joined together and share the same connected Tube stop. Moving between the two is probably easier than moving between the train and bus terminals at South Station.
-Euston is only 400 meters (and one Tube stop) down the road from Kings Cross St Pancras.

So a passenger can easily travel from Edinburgh to Paris by changing trains only once in London, and he or she never needs to take the Tube or even step outside. This is a MUCH easier transfer than Boston North Station to Boston South Station.

EDIT: If you had chosen a different UK city for your starting point--say, Cardiff or Portsmouth--your point would have much more validity. Those trains would arrive at Paddington and Waterloo, respectively, and would require a cross-city transfer in London.

Jumbo -- point taken -- if I'd picked someplace obscure such as Oxford where you alight at Paddington, etc.

The relevant point is that there a plenty of places considered by most here to be transit and rail friendly where there are no concerns over one-seat rides

As you pointed out -- if you can walk under cover [St. Pancras to Kings Cross] or take a moving sidewalk or a short high frequency rail [e.g. Orange Line from N Station to DTX then Red to South Station] for the commuter you have nearly just as convenient a trip as a "one-seat-ride"

I will admit that for a long distance traveler with a lot of baggage [mid 19th to early 20th-Century style] then you need a cab to get you and your baggage from train to train

But in a lot of transit and rail friendly cities people seem to cope without one-seat rides

e.g. Paris: how to get from Garre du Nord [connections to London] to the other stations inside Paris

Gare du Nord train station serves the northern suburbs
around Paris, Lille, London, Brussels, Amsterdam, Cologne...

Gare du Nord TGV, Paris RER, Metro train station. See TGV ticket prices, schedules and reservations at www.bonjourlafrance.com
Courtesy SNCF


Click for a full screen France Map with thousands of French Services

From Gare du Nord to other mainline Train Stations:

Metro and RER from Gare du Nord to other Paris mainline Train Stations

Gare du Nord

TGV
Eurostar
Thalys
Corail
European
Night Trains

: Northern France, Lille
: London,
: Belgium Germany (Cologne, Dusseldorf), Holland
: Picardie : Amiens, St-Quentin, Boulogne-sur-mer
: Germany : Hamburg, Berlin

Suburban
RER

: Northern suburbs
: Lines B (Airports),
D (Gare de Lyon)
E (St Lazare)

Metro

: Gare du Nord is on lines 4 and 5. To travel to other
stations in Paris, assuming departure from Gare du
Nord:


For Gare de Lyon:
either RER on line D2 or D4 which is a direct service
or Metro line 5 direction: Place d'Italie to Bastille
then change to line 1 direction Chateau de
Vincennnes and alight at the first stop, Gare de
Lyon.

For Paris Austerlitz:
Metro line 5 direction: Place d'Italie direct to Paris
Austerlitz.

For Gare de l'Est:
Metro line 4 direction: Porte d'Orleans
or Metro line 5 direction: Place d'Italie direct
or you could walk as it is only 800 yards in a
southeasterly direction

 

[393b40]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I'm still completely unconvinced the NSRL does anything beneficial for Boston other than make it a pass through.

 

[citylover94]

Re: North-South Rail Link

It would essentially function as another subway because the trains running through it would be at a high enough frequency just counting commuter lines that in the central portion it could be used like the subway so instead of taking the Orange line from North Station to Back Bay someone could also choose to take the "Purple line" and as such it would help spread the load. In reality it will probably actually help Boston more than the suburbs especially if the DMU plans turn into EMU at rapid transit frequencies.

 

[393b40]

Re: North-South Rail Link

So this thing which is massively expensive doesn't even become useful until the T invests and completes a shit ton of money and work into electrification. Got it. This whole thing belongs in Crazy Transit Pitches besides the fact it's already a crazy transit pitch IRL.

 

[WormtownNative]

Re: North-South Rail Link

I'm still completely unconvinced the NSRL does anything beneficial for Boston other than make it a pass through.

Aside from what citylover explained, it greatly benefits the region. And it doesn't seem like it, but anything that benefits the region as a whole (which the N-S link WILL), it will benefit Boston greatly, even if indirectly.

 

[Matthew]

Re: North-South Rail Link

The T should be investing money into electrification (or at least plans to when the current batch of locomotives is nearing end of life). Electrification and system-wide level boarding are precisely what any passenger railroad looking to improve itself should be aiming to do. It's not crazy, it's literally the most sensible and reasonable thing that they could do.

So it probably won't happen.

 

[whighlander]

Re: North-South Rail Link

You would indeed get on the NSRL trains at North or South Station, just underground. Like at Penn or Philly. Some trains would still and always be surface ending trains. Old Colony lines and Fairmount do not justify run-throughs so they would dead end at SS, for example.

Semass -- that connectivity issue is the reason why this is a Dukakoid Scheme rather than a sound plan

It sounds great and it might make sense for Amtrak to run on through

But for the CR after you do the few reasonable links of:

• Manchester, Nashua, Lowell to Providence
• Worcester to Salem

then what Fitchburg to Worcester -- not likely; Plymouth to Newburyport?

and even for the quasi reasonable links -- the timing is wrong unless you run the trains 18 hrs/ day at high sustained frequency -- otherwise you end up shuttling trains ineffeciently to meet the primary requirement of rush hour service in-bound to Boston

Its basically a political soundbite proposal "One Seat Ride" -- as Shakespeare once wrote -- — Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 26-28)

....It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

 

[citylover94]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Why not runs trains frequently for 18 hrs/day?

That is the first question to ask especially if short turn portions were created that were for the thru-running trains with the full length mostly terminating as they do now. By short turning some trains the most frequent portion of each line could be kept to just the densest segment of each line.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Semass -- that connectivity issue is the reason why this is a Dukakoid Scheme rather than a sound plan

It sounds great and it might make sense for Amtrak to run on through

But for the CR after you do the few reasonable links of:

• Manchester, Nashua, Lowell to Providence
• Worcester to Salem

then what Fitchburg to Worcester -- not likely; Plymouth to Newburyport?

and even for the quasi reasonable links -- the timing is wrong unless you run the trains 18 hrs/ day at high sustained frequency -- otherwise you end up shuttling trains ineffeciently to meet the primary requirement of rush hour service in-bound to Boston

Its basically a political soundbite proposal "One Seat Ride" -- as Shakespeare once wrote -- — Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 26-28)

Simply put No! No! No! No! No!

The thru running benefit is spreading North Side trains on to South Station and Back Bay; and South and West Side trains up to North Station.

This DRAMATICALLY increases the effective capacity of the central subway system by spreading the load of all those commuter rail riders who have to transfer through the central subway to get to their workplace today.

This is not rocket science, just basic network capacity planning.

 

[underground]

Re: North-South Rail Link

Whighlander: "No one needs a one seat ride from Lowell to Providence!"

Everyone Else: "It's not about through running one seaters."

Whighlander: "WHY DO YOU KEEP HARPING ON ONE SEATERS?!?!?!"