Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

Re: North-South Rail Link

The entire region very urgently needs both, along with electrification of much of the system. He's not arguing for one before the other (which I could understand even if it might not be the best staging), he's pitting one against the other. This is very bad for MA politicos to be dividing North side versus South side on this. We'll end up with neither, which will thrill DeLeo and like-minded shitheads and will screw the rest of us to transit death slowly but inexorably. All MA pols at congressional level on down need to get on board, Moulton and Warrant et all at the fed level doing whatever they can with the Clinton administration to pry the postal property from the Postal Service, and everyone at all levels putting heads together to figure out the best staging, and how to fund it and so on.

Moulton is not being a team player at the necessary level of "team", he's being a typical Massachusetts politician, failing to look beyond the end of his nose, and cutting it off while thinking he's defending it.

ETA: While not in his district and therefore not following him as closely as I might, I've thought generally very positively about Moulton so far, he's seemed like a good rep. This stance is disappointing.

West -- While I have no knowledge of his plans -- I suspect he's thinking of the Governorship and that means he's staking out a position at odds with Governor Baker who of course wants the South Station Expansion. If in addition that it is viewed favorably by the people in his district well for him that's a bonus since Governor Baker is one of his constituents.

But as pointed out by others -- very few of the CR lines are realistic candidates for pass-throughs -- simply because the vast majority of CR traffic is commuters in-bound in the AM and outbound in the PM
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

But as pointed out by others -- very few of the CR lines are realistic candidates for pass-throughs -- simply because the vast majority of CR traffic is commuters in-bound in the AM and outbound in the PM

As has been said again and again and again, this misses the biggest point of the NSRL. The big deal isn't about getting passengers from Lowell to Providence, or Salem to Wellesley. It's about getting passengers from Lowell to Ruggles, about getting passengers from Providence to North Station.

It's the "last mile" problem, particularly a big deal for increasing access to the southern end of the Financial District and Seaport (from South Station), to the John Hancock and Prudential (from Back Bay) and to Longwood (from Ruggles and maybe someday from Yawkey).

And then there are trickle-down benefits-- satellite nodes such as Cambridge, Somerville and Waltham become feasibly accessible from the Southside, which has potential to reduce traffic on 128. And yes, opportunities for "reverse commuting" do increase, which has the potential to create a virtuous cycle feedback loop. But whether that actually materializes is beside the point, since the Big Deal is addressing the last mile problem, providing alternatives to the Orange and Green Lines which are close to, if not already, maxed out.

You're not wrong that only a few lines are viable candidates for service through the tunnel (I figure on Providence and Worcester for the south, Lowell and possibly the Eastern Route in the north), but that's dependent on electrification, not on which routes have viable ridership for Providence-Lowell-style runthrough trips.

Talking about the NSRL as if it's about those kinds of commutes is a canard and a strawman.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

As has been said again and again and again, this misses the biggest point of the NSRL. The big deal isn't about getting passengers from Lowell to Providence, or Salem to Wellesley. It's about getting passengers from Lowell to Ruggles, about getting passengers from Providence to North Station.

It's the "last mile" problem, particularly a big deal for increasing access to the southern end of the Financial District and Seaport (from South Station), to the John Hancock and Prudential (from Back Bay) and to Longwood (from Ruggles and maybe someday from Yawkey).

And then there are trickle-down benefits-- satellite nodes such as Cambridge, Somerville and Waltham become feasibly accessible from the Southside, which has potential to reduce traffic on 128. And yes, opportunities for "reverse commuting" do increase, which has the potential to create a virtuous cycle feedback loop. But whether that actually materializes is beside the point, since the Big Deal is addressing the last mile problem, providing alternatives to the Orange and Green Lines which are close to, if not already, maxed out.

You're not wrong that only a few lines are viable candidates for service through the tunnel (I figure on Providence and Worcester for the south, Lowell and possibly the Eastern Route in the north), but that's dependent on electrification, not on which routes have viable ridership for Providence-Lowell-style runthrough trips.

Talking about the NSRL as if it's about those kinds of commutes is a canard and a strawman.

Exactly -- it is a major enhancement of the core subway network connectivity -- taking a lot of pressure off of the overburdened central transfer stations by getting Northern, Western and Southern commuters closer to their real destinations. Virtually every commuter rail line benefits from through-running to at least the opposing terminus, part of the time.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

As has been said again and again and again, this misses the biggest point of the NSRL. The big deal isn't about getting passengers from Lowell to Providence, or Salem to Wellesley. It's about getting passengers from Lowell to Ruggles, about getting passengers from Providence to North Station.....

Talking about the NSRL as if it's about those kinds of commutes is a canard and a strawman.

Riverside -- you can easily get from Lowell to Ruggles via the Orange Line {North station to Ruggles] from North Station or from Providence to North Station via the Orange Line [Back Bay to North Station]

The rest is a smoke screen with hypothetical reductions in Traffic on Rt-128

No what it really all about is the "Dukakoid" concept of environmental justice and "One Seat Rides" which collapses because of the "Tyranny of Numbers." Precisely the reason that Telephone Networks using Telephone Switchboards were developed to replace myriads of telephones with direct lines.

I'll stipulate that Boston is hopelessly backward in not having the N-S Rail Link -- but so apparently are London and Paris where people routinely transfer from a CR or Trans EU Train to the T [Metro or Tube] and then if needed back to ordinary rail
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

As has been said again and again and again, this misses the biggest point of the NSRL. The big deal isn't about getting passengers from Lowell to Providence, or Salem to Wellesley. It's about getting passengers from Lowell to Ruggles, about getting passengers from Providence to North Station.

It's the "last mile" problem, particularly a big deal for increasing access to the southern end of the Financial District and Seaport (from South Station), to the John Hancock and Prudential (from Back Bay) and to Longwood (from Ruggles and maybe someday from Yawkey).

And then there are trickle-down benefits-- satellite nodes such as Cambridge, Somerville and Waltham become feasibly accessible from the Southside, which has potential to reduce traffic on 128. And yes, opportunities for "reverse commuting" do increase, which has the potential to create a virtuous cycle feedback loop. But whether that actually materializes is beside the point, since the Big Deal is addressing the last mile problem, providing alternatives to the Orange and Green Lines which are close to, if not already, maxed out.

You're not wrong that only a few lines are viable candidates for service through the tunnel (I figure on Providence and Worcester for the south, Lowell and possibly the Eastern Route in the north), but that's dependent on electrification, not on which routes have viable ridership for Providence-Lowell-style runthrough trips.

Talking about the NSRL as if it's about those kinds of commutes is a canard and a strawman.

Someone who knows more about railroad ops will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the #1 benefit of the NSRL isn't even the North Side connections to SS, BBY, et al, or that it takes pressure off the GL and OL (though those are both big bonuses) but that it's a capacity expander for the rail system. SS and NS can handle more trains per hour when some trains run through instead of all of them having to turn around and clog up the interlockings outside of the station.

Is it possible to make full use of our infrastructure and rail right-of-ways, turning the commuter rail system into a real regional rail system without the NSRL? It doesn't seem like it.

Also, while full electrification of the entire MBTA rail system may be a pipe dream, you could run dual-mode locomotives on non-electrified routes through the electrified tunnel. The lines that are most likely to be excluded from the NSRL are the Fitchburg Line (because it needs a separate portal/approach because of the angle of the tracks) and the Old Colony Lines (because spending money on a separate approach for them seems wasteful until and unless the single track issues in Dorchester and Quincy can be resolved).
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I'll stipulate that Boston is hopelessly backward in not having the N-S Rail Link -- but so apparently are London and Paris where people routinely transfer from a CR or Trans EU Train to the T [Metro or Tube] and then if needed back to ordinary rail

But both Paris and London have addressed at least part of the problem of multiple train stations.

Paris has the major TGV station right in Charles de Gaulle Terminal 2 which means that for many regional routings you do not need to do the RER, Metro, RER, TGV connection. (Does not solve commuter issues).
https://www.trainline.eu/station/aeroport-paris-roissy-charles-de-gaulle-cdg

London has the Crossrail under construction that connects major heavy rail to the Underground network at more than a dozen new points. Significant network enhancement.
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I want to point out that is argument of no one needs to from Lowell to Providence was already discussed back on page 18. With the same rebuttals of it's not about Lowell to Providence but Lowell to Ruggles.

I hate when arguments goes in circles. I like when I see a good back of forth of arguments and counter-arguments. So it really annoys me that instead of seeing a counter-counter argument to the rebuttal of it's about Lowell to Rugges, that original argument is just repeated 10 pages and a year later.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Riverside -- you can easily get from Lowell to Ruggles via the Orange Line {North station to Ruggles] from North Station or from Providence to North Station via the Orange Line [Back Bay to North Station]

By most reports, it's not easy, at all. It's crowded, slower and adds extra wait-times and opportunities for delay. And your point also doesn't address lack of access to the Seaport/"Innovation District" nor the improved access to the core of the CBD which would be provided.

I'll stipulate that Boston is hopelessly backward in not having the N-S Rail Link -- but so apparently are London and Paris where people routinely transfer from a CR or Trans EU Train to the T [Metro or Tube] and then if needed back to ordinary rail

As Jeff pointed out, London/Paris are the least useful examples to support your argument, since both have or are building cross-city rail-links. In London's case, in particular, Crossrail is very much analogous to the NSRL, in that it's being built to improve access to Canary Wharf from the western end of the area, and to relieve pressure on the east-west Central line.

Anyway, ant8904 is right, we're basically rehashing old ground, so I digress.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Exactly -- it is a major enhancement of the core subway network connectivity -- taking a lot of pressure off of the overburdened central transfer stations by getting Northern, Western and Southern commuters closer to their real destinations. Virtually every commuter rail line benefits from through-running to at least the opposing terminus, part of the time.

That was a good succinct point and really boils down the argument to a couple sentences.

But I think the NSRL debate has suffered from the lack of a simple elevator pitch type cost benefit analysis that can be boiled down to it will cost $X and will save commuters $Y in hours wasted per year in the current system and enable $Z additional economic development over the next 30 years.

I don't think anyone has done the math on that yet and until they do it is hard to say whether it is worth doing at $3 Billion or only worth doing at $2 billion or whatever it works out to be.

Otherwise you are talking about benefits without knowing whether they are worth the cost.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

SS and NS can handle more trains per hour when some trains run through instead of all of them having to turn around and clog up the interlockings outside of the station..

Yes, it appear that NSRL as currently envisioned would have most trains completely bypass the current platforms of North Station and South Station and stop at new underground stations.

NSRL+Profile-VHB+DEIR-MIS+Fig.+2.5-7.jpg


Basically North and South Station would only serve intercity trains for Amtrack and all the commuter rail would run through and stop at new underground stations...

Probably should rename those underground stations since they are pretty far away from the existing North and South Stations.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Yes, it appear that NSRL as currently envisioned would have most trains completely bypass the current platforms of North Station and South Station and stop at new underground stations.

Basically North and South Station would only serve intercity trains for Amtrack and all the commuter rail would run through and stop at new underground stations...

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe I have heard either of those assertions from any credible source. Where have you heard that?

My understanding is that many if not most trains will continue to terminate at the surface stations. I believe I got that impression from F-Line, but I'm not certain.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

F-Line did an excellent analysis (upthread?) that showed NSRL only serving lines that merited electrification costs...the busy ones on both sides But its very much an 80/20 kind of thing--the busy lines revolutionize travel for the most people and generate the most connections and relieve the core subway the most. Good bang for buck without having to tunnel a portal for every minor line.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't believe I have heard either of those assertions from any credible source. Where have you heard that?

My understanding is that many if not most trains will continue to terminate at the surface stations. I believe I got that impression from F-Line, but I'm not certain.

"While a few trains will continue to use the existing surface terminals, most will run through the city, stopping at new underground rail stations built adjacent to the Red & Silver Lines, Blue Line and Green & Orange Lines. Cross-platform connections will allow convenient transfers between any of the lines at these downtown stations."

http://www.northsouthraillink.org/alignment/
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Yes, it appear that NSRL as currently envisioned would have most trains completely bypass the current platforms of North Station and South Station and stop at new underground stations.

NSRL+Profile-VHB+DEIR-MIS+Fig.+2.5-7.jpg


Basically North and South Station would only serve intercity trains for Amtrack and all the commuter rail would run through and stop at new underground stations...

Probably should rename those underground stations since they are pretty far away from the existing North and South Stations.

South Station Under would be offset from the main station under Dot Ave. Means the lobby hookup to the rest of the station is going to be the Red/Silver mezzanine, not the main terminal building. But that's why the new Red/Silver top mezzanine was built so absurdly spacious.

NS slots much closer to the surface platforms. Basically straddles the offset Green/Orange superstation and the commuter rail tracks. Main disconnect is simply depth, so like SS Under it's a long enough escalator ride that you're not exactly equipped to hop platforms between an underground train and a surface train in anywhere less than 5 minutes, making coordinated transfers a little impractical. But that's raw engineering, not lack of foresight. It doesn't exist at all if it isn't that deep.


The main thing Moulton--who's just parroting Dukakis' outburst from a couple months ago without reading up--misses is the frequency issue. They're making the SEPTA fallacy about this being a 1:1 replacement for surface capacity and run-thru being the primary demand driver. Not true.

  • There is fuckall commuter demand for Franklin-Rockport, because nobody commutes from bedroom community to bedroom community during rush hour. We also don't need to be seeking run-thrus on too many lines if frequencies are robust enough systemwide that transferring line-to-line doesn't require waiting more than 15 mins. for the next terminal departure rather than 0:45-1:30. So you better be driving this frequencies, frequencies, frequencies-first as a systemic solution where 1 tunnel's worth of steel-and-concrete monument building is but one part of what's real-world mainly an RER-like service plan across the whole Purple spider map.

  • 128-to-128 is where demand exists in numbers. But to the extend run-thru schedules from 495-land serve that, it's ridership overchurn within 128 and at the terminals that make the 128-to-128 trip a whole new set of riders unto itself. There will rarely, if ever, be a need to run 495-to-495 on a regular commuter slot...just 495 to opposite-side 128 a portion of the time, but not all the time.

  • Outer 'burb schedules can't absorb 128-to-128 demand totally tucked inside themselves, because there is a 4-on-2 mismatch of northside vs. southside Indigo routes to match up: Waltham, Woburn, Reading, Salem vs. only Riverside and Fairmount/Dedham. Needham's still long gone to Orange + Green because of NEC congestion, and the Old Colony main--even if Savin Hill single-tracking gets fixed--still has unfixable single-track in Quincy, 3 branches to feed, a super-long branch ride to Hyannis, and redundant Red Line to Braintree. Going to be a mix-and-match fest, and some intra-128 destinations are going to get the short end of the stick on run-thru slots needing short-turn supplementals to balance the ledger. There's going to eventually need to be some major executive decisions made on some rapid transit expansions up north to fix the disparities. Stuff like Orange eating the Reading Line or a second-wave Blue extension from Lynn to Salem.

  • Local pols severely underestimate the regional intercity component, to their detriment. They're still swallowing the logic from 15 years ago that this is primarily a Massachusetts joint. What's happened in 15 years since NSRL got its last serious study effort? The Downeaster happened; the Virginia NE Regionals happened; Hartford Line commuter rail happen(ing)ed; RIDOT intrastate predicated on easy transfers to Boston or New Haven got greenlit; the tri-state Inland Route/New England Intercity study happened; and Providence, Portland, Worcester, and Lowell in varying degrees started to catch a growth wave towards bona fide reverse-commute and reverse-travel markets. Amtrak looms a lot larger across New England today than it did 15 years. MA's #2, 3, 4 largest cities loom a lot larger today than they did 15 years ago. The largest cities of our immediate neighboring states loom a lot larger today than they did 15 years ago.

  • The value proposition of the likely $8B total price tag isn't floated by a 1:1 terminal replacement. Not even close. The tunnel does not have the same natural capacity as the current surface terminals. Running thru increases capacity, but in this case the increase is only to bring the tunnel's limitations up to par with not-real-impressive 2016 throughput schedules at the terminals. The tunnel's got hella steep grades making for slow-crawl, single-file speeds. Unlike SEPTA Center City, these 4 thru tracks are going to be a little constipated. There's only up to 8 platform tracks at NS Under and SS Under, and an inadequate 6 at Central Station. Throw in the escalator ride from 100 ft. down and there's a very finite capacity limit. If you can't increase frequencies...there's no reason to spend this when you can spend a fifth as much improving rapid transit between NS and SS.

  • We physically can't electrify everything. It is with 90% certainty physically impossible on the Haverhill Line and Downeaster where double-stack freight cars will be roaming in 5-7 years and an extra 2-1/2 feet for wires isn't available underneath the Downtown Lawrence street grid and I-495 at the Merrimack River. And it is with 90% certainty too cost-prohibitive to maintain wires for South Coast Rail, Middleboro-Hyannis, and some more diffuse-service branchlines where service levels either can't be frequent enough or will never have much demand outside of conventional peak commute hours. It's also a plank of the SEPTA Fallacy that their 100% electrification is aspirational. SEPTA whacked all of their I-495 equivalent diesel routes in prep for Center City and crippled their own system to point where outside of the Amtrak overlap all of their routes are a bunch of Fairmounts.


Therefore, you have to utilize the best of all worlds. The native capacity of most of the mainline trunks out of Boston can only be tapped by double-barreling the terminal districts so Cove Interlocking at SS and Tower 1 at NS aren't the systemwide limiters. The B&A, NH Main, Eastern Route, Midland Route, and Fitchburg Main can handle silly-higher service densities if it weren't for the terminal mash-ups. The NEC can handle silly-higher Amtrak frequencies. Only the Old Colony and inner-half Western Route are hobbled by native constraints not much better than today. This was the downside all of the 19th-century RR's accepted when they combined their individual terminals into union stations; someday they'd scrape the caps of the terminal district. 1:1 trading Cove and Tower 1 for Cove Under and Tower 1 Under just means all that silly-unused spoke capacity remains just as silly-unused. If we want RER-level service carrying us from 2040 to the turn of the 22nd century, it has to involve North and South Station surface terminals as part of the century-level solution. Otherwise it's just an $8B vanity project or the SEPTA Fallacy gruesomely repeating itself.


And this notion that we have to STOP...EVERYTHING on SSX right now and drain it of all funding for another study on something that can't feasibly be built in less than 15 years needs to die with an ice pick to the head. SS is over-capacity today. You will never get +2 Worcester and Providence trains added at 5:00pm cattle corral to relieve the standing room-only overcrowding on 7-8 car trains without fixing the terminal...TODAY. You can only fix the terminal by moving USPS and spreading out the switches to fix the cross-movement traffic conflicts. Postponing the 2019 fix for something that won't happen before 2030 means commuter mobility into Boston gets choked off for the balance of the 2020's, slows the economy, and makes it harder to justify paying for an $8B investment in an era of growth leveling off. Is that worth it? Is that worth waiting out the leveling-off...for the $8B investment that can't happen for 15 years...and then not seeing a frequencies increase offering up new growth? Learn to walk and chew gum at the same time, political hacks.

What price for conceptual perfection, Seth? FFS, don't ever go full-SEPTA on anything. Phone up Salvucci before opening your mouth if you need the Cliffs Notes version explained to you as bottom-line political capital in under 5 minutes.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Is there any part of NSRL like say, the portals, that would be physically easier to build before SSX? Rather, would it become harder to build after SSX? I'm thinking about Hudson Yards, where the portal for the future Gateway tunnels was built before the air rights developments, because waiting would have made it much more difficult and expensive.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Thinking this through though what is the point of NSRL if you decide to dead end most of your indigo service at North and South Stations? Sure, that is where your established commuter patterns mean most people want to go, but you lose the network effects if you force a lot of transfers or wait for infrequent n-s service versus just running most of the trains trains through.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Is there any part of NSRL like say, the portals, that would be physically easier to build before SSX? Rather, would it become harder to build after SSX? I'm thinking about Hudson Yards, where the portal for the future Gateway tunnels was built before the air rights developments, because waiting would have made it much more difficult and expensive.

What about doing SSX as the underground platform which you would do for NSRL? So, SSX becomes a phase I for NSRL. Probably would increase the cost of SSX, but it reduces the cost of NSRL and literally and figuratively puts NSRL on the right track.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

By most reports, it's not easy, at all. It's crowded, slower and adds extra wait-times and opportunities for delay. And your point also doesn't address lack of access to the Seaport/"Innovation District" nor the improved access to the core of the CBD which would be provided.



As Jeff pointed out, London/Paris are the least useful examples to support your argument, since both have or are building cross-city rail-links. In London's case, in particular, Crossrail is very much analogous to the NSRL, in that it's being built to improve access to Canary Wharf from the western end of the area, and to relieve pressure on the east-west Central line.

Anyway, ant8904 is right, we're basically rehashing old ground, so I digress.

Riverside -- actually CrossRail is the total antithesis of the NS Rail Link concept

several key points:

  • CrossRail is a new Line which starts well beyond Heathrow in the suburbs does cross under the core of London and through Canary Wharf but then it continues far out into the suburbs.
  • while passing though London Proper it connects with several of the busiest of the Tube stations and also builds several new ones -- But it doesn't connect directly except by passageways and escalator banks with any of the existing major rail hubs
  • Most of it is above ground the tunneling while interesting is just a small piece of the project
  • its Big dig like in costs $15B Pounds [but insured against inflation and contingency]
  • Most importantly -- its a private corporation Crossrail, Ltd. which is building the project -- not the government although there are government funds involved
  • finally
    ABOUT CROSSRAIL LTD
    Crossrail Limited, established in 2001, is the company that has been set up to build the new railway that will become known as the Elizabeth line when it opens through central London in 2018.

    It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL) and is jointly sponsored by TfL and the Department for Transport. Once the railway is complete it will be handed over to TfL and run as part of London’s integrated transport network.

see http://www.crossrail.co.uk/ or the very good recent Nova Program available on the pbs.org webs sitehttps://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/super-tunnel.html
crossrail-route-map-geographic-outline-interchange.gif


To be like CrossRail the project in Boston would look as follows:

Start in say Reading [coincidentally the beginning of CrossRail's Elizabeth Line]
Pass through Lynn, on to Logan go under the harbor to the Seaport then under South Station under Chinatown under Park Street continue under Beacon Hill under the Charles River then under Kendall under Central under Watertown, surfacing somewhere by the Arsenal and going through Waltham and ending up in Sudbury or maybe even Marlborough
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Is there any part of NSRL like say, the portals, that would be physically easier to build before SSX? Rather, would it become harder to build after SSX? I'm thinking about Hudson Yards, where the portal for the future Gateway tunnels was built before the air rights developments, because waiting would have made it much more difficult and expensive.

No, because there's absolutely nothing to pre-prep with something so thoroughly subterranean. The surface impacts are going to be virtually nil to the city. The space for the main bore already exists in the fill under 93, the lead tunnels all stay 100% below the footprint of existing terminal-district CR tracks, 4 of 5 portals themselves either are right across the tracks from Boston Engine Terminal or Amtrak Southampton Yard, and the last one is in the NEC pit under the Washington St. bridge completely unaffecting any Pike air rights slapped over the pit. The hard parts are the union stations themselves, especially that offset SS Under and Dot Ave. trajectory that has to straddle Ft. Point Channel.

What about doing SSX as the underground platform which you would do for NSRL? So, SSX becomes a phase I for NSRL. Probably would increase the cost of SSX, but it reduces the cost of NSRL and literally and figuratively puts NSRL on the right track.

No, it doesn't reduce the cost at all. Because the mainline tunnel under 93 is far and away the cheapest segment (esp. if Central Station gets the axe), SS Under far and away the most expensive, and the lead tunnels collectively the longest segments of the whole works by pure tunneling feet. You would spend two-thirds or more of the total project cost for 8 measly platforms that take an excruciating-slow crawl to reach, and require the same service outages to change ends on the platforms. Remember, thru-running is the way you get equal throughput out of way fewer platforms. +13 stub tracks at SSX on fully level ground adds effectively 2-2.5x as much total capacity as +8 stub tracks underground when you factor in the constraints of very slow-speed grades and long escalators up from underground. There is literally, absolutely no reason to turn a shovel unless you're planning to dig all the way and tap all the benefits of thru-running.


Keep in mind in context of Moulton's bogus SSX rant...+13 platforms and relocating USPS are not where the SSX sticker shock is coming from. It's the terminal amenities and surrounding development. USPS is simply a kick-the-can game between city, state, and fed agencies with nobody willing to take the lead on breaking the stalemate. If they truly wanted to Phase I/Phase II it they could get that over with and just build the final-designed track structures first and quickly. Then be done with the everything that would ever matter to train service and some bleary-eyed schlub wanting to get to work with enough extra crowd-swallower schedules that he doesn't have to stand in the aisles every morning. Bare-ass platform slabs with shitty aluminum shelters dumping out into a weather-unprotected open egress, and track spacing to permit future air rights like the anchoring stumps that have been between all the other platforms since 1989. That's it. It's an isolated fraction of the whole package because track switches and 800 ft. platforms are all fixed-cost construction increments. But that alone is the perma-fix on the ops side.

Nobody's proposing shearing it off like that because it's less-sexy train ops stuff and not instant-gratification glass headhouses, public boating on the Channel, and row buildings on Dot Ave. When the pols who control the purse strings never need to commute to the actual thing they're building or have any of their insider peers who do either, it becomes all about the edifice and not the function. Hence, you get people like Moulton giving a soundbite freak-out about "why this edifice and not that???" without acknowledging what the hell either is supposed to do. And making the public wonder if anyone truly knows what it is they're trying to spend money on.

They can completely separate the form from function on SSX by only a handful of years on the construction schedule at zero change to the final product. At this point it's probably the best overall plan to bake in a mid-act intermission to recharge the budget so they can get this show on the road. They refuse to do so because to them it's all about the edifice and not the mundane function of a fucking train station cattle-corralling people into the city with some degree of efficiency that scales to growth. Same myopia that gets NYC pols trying to one-up themselves with grander Penn-Moynihan Station amenities that nonetheless leave those narrow, claustrophobic platforms and exit stairs at Penn just as narrow and claustrophobic as they've been the last hundred years.

Thinking this through though what is the point of NSRL if you decide to dead end most of your indigo service at North and South Stations? Sure, that is where your established commuter patterns mean most people want to go, but you lose the network effects if you force a lot of transfers or wait for infrequent n-s service versus just running most of the trains trains through.

Well, yeah...that's exactly it.

1) As mentioned, 128-to-128 service is going to be the primary driver for this, not 495-to-495. And on the other end, intercity is being significantly undervalued vs. 495-to-495 park-and-rides. So the assumptions of traffic proportions and weighting need to be adjusted in the next scoping study vs. what they were assuming 15 years ago in a completely different era.

2) The 4-on-2 Indigo mismatch north-vs.-south is going to need some rapid transit builds so you DON'T have to short out northside Indigo routes. 3-on-2 would probably work just fine if the pairs got artfully alternated, but something on one of the color lines is likely going to need to swallow that 4th north schedule. I'm guessing Reading is the easiest target, because the inner Western Route is a capacity gimp as a thru route and the required money to add tracks and eliminate crossings is roughly par whether it stays CR or flips Orange.

3) To get the full benefit of the network effects you need to get everything calibrated and clean up the mismatches like #2, or else it's not going to fire on all cylinders. Keep in mind this is a seismic change in transportation patterns never seen in the 180 years of Boston's mainline rail spoke network. It's not enough to build the thing, but the follow-through on cleaning up the minor service inequities and making a sea change out in the 'burbs with last-mile bus feeders are just as important as the $8B in steel-and-concrete. This is another warning of the SEPTA Fallacy of it being a drop-in replacement terminal. It's not. It's horrible value-for-money if the same-old, same-old runs underground without giving treatment to the whole Eastern MA multimodal network. And since it creates some new winners-and-losers inequities like that 4-on-2 Indigo mismatch, its value for delivering on what's promised hinges on secondary adjustments throughout the network.


In that sense it's way more than an $8B project. It's one neverending service-oriented investment of incalculable $B's spread over many decades incorporating other realms far flung from rail. Because it's going to change the demographics of Greater Boston and how they use all manner of infrastructure. It's sort of like the Big Dig in that the $14B (and rising) CA/T is the biggest steel-and-concrete monolith you can see with your own eyes, but 20 years of growth and investment therein of all the things we talk about on the AB Dev forum--total non-transpo things--have direct coattails from it. "New Boston" itself is the neverending, half-century level continuation of the Big Dig...now spread out so umpteen degrees-of-separation from the $14B CA/T to stuff like the petty arguments in the Aquarium Garage thread. And in some critical cases, boomeranging right back on the transpo network because of the threat the overload this torrid growth throws on the subway poses to further growth if the powers-that-be don't do anything. Debates about supertalls and new neighborhoods and the BRA don't draw from the same funding source as the CA/T...but it's the same economic engine chugging along that's building all this stuff, bringing in the private money that returns in-profit that brings more private money, and posing the next set of existential dilemmas. History irrevocably changed because of the network effects of the CA/T.

That's how you need to frame the NSRL and the mobility debate writ-large. If the Big Dig's economic engine was the half-century of continuous action for securing Boston's prospects, 1990-2040...then think of this (i.e. NSRL and associated rapid transit + last-mile feeder consideration) as the follow-up economic engine covering 2040-2090. Not a monolith. The network effects have to be framed in similar "New-New Boston" terms fanning all the way out to what developers are going to be building what where, how that positions Boston to take advantage of employment changes beyond the current tech/innovation era, what demographics that's going to attract. To a much wider region than just the CBD this time.



For whatever reason, pols have no trouble explaining the network effects of the Big Dig in terms of "New Boston" coattails. It's the same narrative that needs to push the NSRL. Justification for the $8B tunnel/terminals (past the skittishness of "Can we keep it on-budget, with oversight, and free from criminal enterprise this time?") isn't hard to find if you spin the same way as Big Dig and New Boston: the neverending investment that secures 50 years of good times. They know how to do that; it's been the mantra for 20 years now. For whatever reason the messaging here just hasn't congealed and they're not talking enough beyond the $8B tunnel + terminals and show-me gimmicks like "Look!...Fitchburg-Greenbush!" animated GIF maps. Of course it's going to look like a raw deal if no picture is being painted other than "Same old commuter rail, expensive new digs." That's not how they justified greenlighting the CA/T, and not how they can plain-English explain the enduring net-positives to the economy in spite of the damage all the project corruption caused. Chalk it up to that same Penn-Moynihan myopia of pols fighting to one-up each other on pork but coming from a closed-rank class that has no awareness of the function of what they're fighting for. Maybe Seth should stop flying to New York when Acela first-class is sold out and try taking a Regional for a change.
 
Re: North-South Rail Link

Riverside -- actually CrossRail is the total antithesis of the NS Rail Link concept

Let's see.

Crossrail uses existing stations outside London, NS Rail would use existing stations outside Boston.

Crossrail builds new platforms in London. NS Rail builds new platforms in Boston.

How are these the antithesis of each other?

Most importantly -- its a private corporation Crossrail, Ltd. which is building the project -- not the government although there are government funds involved

That is just plain false. You even quote.

It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London (TfL)

Transport for London is part of the government. It is an agency within the Greater London Authority, which is the government of London. I don't see how you can claim it is a "private corporation".
 

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