Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

The commuter rail ridership is roughly back to pre-covid levels and the highways are similarly packed with stop and go traffic.

Certainly doesn't seem like it given the funding problems. I think it would work as a Inner Core subway relief valve but sure also seems like the Pols don't have that vision.

Time is definately a big problem too. How long you'd think it'd take? Pretty much every Pol will be long gone by the time it would be finished.
 
Certainly doesn't seem like it given the funding problems.

Commuter rail has always been the biggest financial loser of the MBTA's portfolio. It was just a week or two ago @Riverside was pointing to the bluebook data about how the red line gets more ridership than the entire northside. Commuter rail ridership would need to be massively higher than pre-covid in order to make a significant positive impact on the T's finances.
 
Commuter rail has always been the biggest financial loser of the MBTA's portfolio. It was just a week or two ago @Riverside was pointing to the bluebook data about how the red line gets more ridership than the entire northside. Commuter rail ridership would need to be massively higher than pre-covid in order to make a significant positive impact on the T's finances.
I mean, no public transit system operates without subsidy, but are we sure about that? I've always been under the impression that The RIDE was the big cost center / fare recovery hole. The thing about the CR system is that it doesn't cost a huge amount to operate, and because it has high ticket prices it generated a fair bit of revenue for the T, and has historically had a better fare recovery rate than the Green line or Buses. Basically, despite having a fraction of the riders, thanks to the length of the trip, it carried them far further than the heavy rail system resulting in more passenger miles traveled on the CR system than Red/Orange/Blue combined, and with the distance based zone system...

Back in 2019 at least, the CR had a fare recovery ratio of ~62% which beat out everything except the ferry and heavy rail. (The fy22 NTD data isn't particularly useful since it doesn't capture the 96% ridership recovery, but I'm waiting for the fy23 agency profiles to be released.) At the moment, given its ridership recovery I'd venture to assert that the CR system is probably doing better financially than the rest of the system. At a minimum, it's probably not adding significantly to the T's fiscal pressures in the same way that depressed heavy transit ridership has.

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I've always been under the impression that The RIDE was the big cost center / fare recovery hole.
You are 100% correct, though I don't think that's a fair comparison because it's a specialty service for a specific and limited demographic. It's not government-Uber.

But that's also different than I what I was talking about. I mean it costs more for us to have, operate, and maintain the commuter rail system. I don't see why capital costs should be ignored. You are correct that the CR doesn't take a lot to operate, but its cost is in being an expansive system that needs significant more milage maintained. Factor in use of capital funds and my statement is correct, no service ran a bigger aggregate deficit. Though I would certainly grant the deficit per passenger mile is much better than bus and light rail, what is more important, by passenger mile, or by passenger served? Seems like valuing the former over the latter is punishing efficiency in land use.
 
You are 100% correct, though I don't think that's a fair comparison because it's a specialty service for a specific and limited demographic. It's not government-Uber.

But that's also different than I what I was talking about. I mean it costs more for us to have, operate, and maintain the commuter rail system. I don't see why capital costs should be ignored. You are correct that the CR doesn't take a lot to operate, but its cost is in being an expansive system that needs significant more milage maintained. Factor in use of capital funds and my statement is correct, no service ran a bigger aggregate deficit. Though I would certainly grant the deficit per passenger mile is much better than bus and light rail, what is more important, by passenger mile, or by passenger served? Seems like valuing the former over the latter is punishing efficiency in land use.
I would agree generally with respect to the Ride, but the T does seem to have a fairly inefficient cost structure compared to other RTAs.

As for the CR system, a not insignificant portion of reported CR capital spend in recent years that has been for expansion or mandated projects -SCR and PTC, which may not be appropriate to include for this purpose. I acknowledge that capital spend should not be excluded overall, but I don't have the patience to sift through the CIP. Granted you probably have access to better numbers than I do, but if the CNAI is an appropriate proxy for capital / asset efficiency, If 74% of CR assets has needs 7.9B, overall the entire system is worth 10.6B, whereas 14.6B at 61% the transit system has total assets of ~24B. (Mild conflation here since the T also includes Green which NTD breaks out.) CR may have a lot more trackage and station assets, but until electrification /NSRL happen it's generally simpler assets - no tunnels after all.

As for the relative importance of passenger mile vs passenger served, this is probably something that people have differing opinions on depending on what they see as the benefit of public transit. To me, it's getting folks out of cars, and it feels like the CR system has a bigger impact in diversion from POV use, and that every mile a passenger takes the T is a mile they're not driving. Though I certainly take your point on density, in a dense environment if you're not taking the Red Line from Davis to Kendall you could be riding an bluebike, PEV or walking. You're not doing that to downtown from Natick or Andover.
 
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I'm going to have to dispute this. In terms of serving Longwood, Ruggles/Lansdowne aren't bad but they're also not close, and the 47 bus shows a pretty clear flow from Ruggles to Longwood. If we accept dropping people almost a mile away as a 1SR then sure, but I don't think that's what most people have in mind. Urban Ring is what's needed for Longwood and anything else is a pretty distant second.
Ruggles<->Longwood is served by the 8,19,47, CT2, CT3, Longwood Collective buses, and various other shuttle buses. Theres also many bus connections to get to the industrial and warehouse jobs in between Dorchester, Roxbury, and the South End. On top of that, the station sits on Northeastern. Getting more regional rail trains to Ruggles is far more important than I think people realize. Thats not only including Northside terminating trains but also the Old Colony Lines that can run select rush hour trips bypassing South Station and through onto NEC routes.
 
Thats not only including Northside terminating trains but also the Old Colony Lines that can run select rush hour trips bypassing South Station and through onto NEC routes.
South Station >>> Ruggles as a destination.

And besides, if we're in NSRL world aren't we service-dense enough across the Purple Line that the two-seat rides are super easy like we've been talking about these last 2 pages??? What's stopping a South Shore rider from hopping platforms at South Station Under to pick up an NEC train bound for Ruggles that's running every few minutes? It'd be even easier than transferring to the Orange Line at North Station/Haymarket because the walk between platforms would be shorter.


EDIT: Hell, we don't even need NSRL. Systemwide Regional Rail makes hopping platforms at current SS to change directions enough of a breeze to beat rapid transit handily on a Ruggles <> South Shore trip.
 
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So I have a regional rail question. It seems like these new trips are very useful in the metro for making weird connections within the area for commutes. North to south etc. but it seems like getting from X suburb to Y suburb still requires the dreaded “all the way in and all the way out” trip, it just means that if one suburb happens to be on the other side of Boston that’s faster.

My personal example is that I live in Cambridge and don’t own a car and sometimes for work have to go to the suburbs, for example Wilmington, and I get a rental car comped. Now I obviously need to rent a car since there’s zero last mile transit to the place I need to go and I’d rather it not take me 1:30 to go 13 miles. But maybe with regional rail that calculus becomes easier. But if for example I lived in Lynn Interim, MA to commute to my downtown job, There’s no universe where I should take the train, even with regional Transit Matters rail. I don’t even know how you solve something like this beyond building an 1800s style web of railroads.

To me the conclusion is that at the end of the day the place thats served best by transit is dense cities and travel within them and their immediate. And so while I am 100% for RER and think CR is worth it on the whole, we’d be better off with it being possible for everyone who wants to live in the metro be able to live there for cheap and see to what extent other places die on the vine without highway subsidies.
 
So I have a regional rail question. It seems like these new trips are very useful in the metro for making weird connections within the area for commutes. North to south etc. but it seems like getting from X suburb to Y suburb still requires the dreaded “all the way in and all the way out” trip, it just means that if one suburb happens to be on the other side of Boston that’s faster.

My personal example is that I live in Cambridge and don’t own a car and sometimes for work have to go to the suburbs, for example Wilmington, and I get a rental car comped. Now I obviously need to rent a car since there’s zero last mile transit to the place I need to go and I’d rather it not take me 1:30 to go 13 miles. But maybe with regional rail that calculus becomes easier. But if for example I lived in Lynn Interim, MA to commute to my downtown job, There’s no universe where I should take the train, even with regional Transit Matters rail. I don’t even know how you solve something like this beyond building an 1800s style web of railroads.

To me the conclusion is that at the end of the day the place thats served best by transit is dense cities and travel within them and their immediate. And so while I am 100% for RER and think CR is worth it on the whole, we’d be better off with it being possible for everyone who wants to live in the metro be able to live there for cheap and see to what extent other places die on the vine without highway subsidies.
Regional Rail doesn't fire on all cylinders unless you substantially expand suburban bus routes and microtransit. That's a wrinkle not all advocates are keen on, but we basically need to also fund a 'Marshall Plan' of suburban bus expansion and RTA funding for the last-mile trips if we're truly going to break the dependency on cars. Rail can only go where the tracks go, and that's not everywhere.
 
^^Don't forget, too, that the last-mile issue has 2 very cheap and efficient solutions that can be provided for very, very cheaply: walking and rolling (bike, wheelchair, etc.). Maximizing people's comfort with those mixed mode trips--with better infrastructure, and as often, frequent and reliable rail/bus--is important.
 
^^Don't forget, too, that the last-mile issue has 2 very cheap and efficient solutions that can be provided for very, very cheaply: walking and rolling (bike, wheelchair, etc.). Maximizing people's comfort with those mixed mode trips--with better infrastructure, and as often, frequent and reliable rail/bus--is important.
I believe the best local case study for this at the moment is Sharon(?) - they got a grant for a set of 20 bikeshare e-bikes based at the CR station & community center for tourists to ride around town a couple of years ago. I can't track down the post about it at the moment, but that part failed. What didn't fail is that locals and commuters have instead proven to be the primary users of that for their last mile connectivity. Folks need a way to get where they're going once they get off the train, and I think bikeshares and bike infrastructure (lanes and secure cages for locals to leave their personal rides) is a good way of providing that in the ≤5 mile ring.

Edit: post here:
Was in a meeting with staff from the Town of Sharon today where I learned about a really cool program they're running. They bought 20 e-bikes with the intention of doing this e-tourism program where people would take the train to Sharon and ride around this route with route to hit all their parks and Lake Massapoag and stuff. The program as intended was a flop, but it turned out there was a lot of demand from Sharon residents to rent the bikes (which were split 10/10 between the train station and the community center) for just normal travel. They're now re-tooling the program and pricing mechanics to be more oriented for resident use and making first/last mile connections to the train station.

I'll be following this closely as they re-tool the program. Would love to see this as proof-of-concept for limited bike share programs in the burbs in town centers and transit nodes. E-bikes really change the game here in making it viable.
 
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I believe the best local case study for this at the moment is Sharon(?) - they got a grant for a set of 20 bikeshare e-bikes based at the CR station & community center for tourists to ride around town a couple of years ago. I can't track down the post about it at the moment, but that part failed. What didn't fail is that locals and commuters have instead proven to be the primary users of that for their last mile connectivity. Folks need a way to get where they're going once they get off the train, and I think bikeshares and bike infrastructure (lanes and secure cages for locals to leave their personal rides) is a good way of providing that in the ≤5 mile ring.

Edit: post here:
I heard about the Sharon example. but I am really confused about how bikeshare can work to provide last mile train to home connectivity on a suburban setting.

Bikeshare at the station: cool. I get off of my train and grab a bike.
Ride bike 2-3 miles home: cool. Particularly nice if there is bike infrastructure.
Now the bike is at my suburban home: tilt? Does it stay there until I ride back to the station tomorrow? Do I get charged for the bike for the full overnight? Bikes would not see many trips per day?

I just don't see how this works?
 
I heard about the Sharon example. but I am really confused about how bikeshare can work to provide last mile train to home connectivity on a suburban setting.

Bikeshare at the station: cool. I get off of my train and grab a bike.
Ride bike 2-3 miles home: cool. Particularly nice if there is bike infrastructure.
Now the bike is at my suburban home: tilt? Does it stay there until I ride back to the station tomorrow? Do I get charged for the bike for the full overnight? Bikes would not see many trips per day?

I just don't see how this works?
I think in this case if you are going to the train station regularly you're looking at owning an e-bike. Instead of 3 cars (mom, dad, kid) a family might own 2 cars (mom, kid) and dad bikes to the train station and borrows car as necessary. Since a bike is cheaper than a car this works out.

Bikeshare I see as better for reverse commutes, and other trips where you start and end at the city center.
 
I heard about the Sharon example. but I am really confused about how bikeshare can work to provide last mile train to home connectivity on a suburban setting.

Bikeshare at the station: cool. I get off of my train and grab a bike.
Ride bike 2-3 miles home: cool. Particularly nice if there is bike infrastructure.
Now the bike is at my suburban home: tilt? Does it stay there until I ride back to the station tomorrow? Do I get charged for the bike for the full overnight? Bikes would not see many trips per day?

I just don't see how this works?
I'd second that if you're in the burbs, you'd more likely own one to park at the station, and why I think secure bike parking is needed everywhere on the system. That said, I've heard about two models for that.

1) in lower demand areas, you don't rent a bike by the minute, it's per hour or day. They're less concerned about utilization since there's less demand, so you basically treat it like a library - you would check one out for a period of 4, 6, 12 hours. Frankly, you'd probably need to do this anyways if your goal is reverse commuters; your bike is going to be at your office away from the docks at the station.
2) There's an example somewhere in France that does it as a hybrid model; same fleet, but you can take one out of the dock or pay for a personal bike as a monthly subscription. The French have a study out there that says something like 30% of commuters eliminate daily car commutes after having access to an e-bike for 3 months. Keep in mind it's France, so it's denser than a place like Sharon, but combined with e-bike subsidy it's lowering the barrier to trying it, so people are like "huh, this is nice" then they go buy their own to park at the station.
 
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I heard about the Sharon example. but I am really confused about how bikeshare can work to provide last mile train to home connectivity on a suburban setting.

Bikeshare at the station: cool. I get off of my train and grab a bike.
Ride bike 2-3 miles home: cool. Particularly nice if there is bike infrastructure.
Now the bike is at my suburban home: tilt? Does it stay there until I ride back to the station tomorrow? Do I get charged for the bike for the full overnight? Bikes would not see many trips per day?

I just don't see how this works?
I don't think it's something you're meant to do forever. But if you're visiting someone and want to go by transit, or maybe your car broke down and you need an alternative for a couple days, or maybe you just want to give it a try, now there are e-bikes at a convenient location you can use. No it's not going to solve every problem with last mile transit, but it also shouldn't be expected to.
 
I don't think it's something you're meant to do forever. But if you're visiting someone and want to go by transit, or maybe your car broke down and you need an alternative for a couple days, or maybe you just want to give it a try, now there are e-bikes at a convenient location you can use. No it's not going to solve every problem with last mile transit, but it also shouldn't be expected to.
Understood, but you flipped the ridership scenario back around to visitors (the original intent) not residents of Sharon. I don't see how it works for residents to accomplish last mile trips.
 
Understood, but you flipped the ridership scenario back around to visitors (the original intent) not residents of Sharon. I don't see how it works for residents to accomplish last mile trips.
One of the examples was visitors, the other two are more applicable to residents. They're e-bikes that are just rentable from a convenient location, what you choose to use them for is up to you.
 
Some context, the Sharon program broke even in it's first year even with demand being different than expected. Buying a dozen or so e-bikes is a miniscule transportation investment. So as others have said you don't need huge ridership to make it work, and it's easier to scale as demand grows.

Also yes they are reframing the pricing model so people rent by the hour/day and can bring the bikes home.
 
The battle is joined!

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/06/24/opinion/north-south-rail-link-transportation-william-straus/

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/06/24/opinion/north-south-rail-link-benefits/

I'm intrigued to hear any fellow ABers opine on Straus' criticisms that a.) the NSRL tunnel would just be too damned submerged to be of any practical use to users (to which I might respond--has he ever clocked the amount of time it takes an average Porter Sq. user to ascend from the bowels of that station--escalator or otherwise?) and, b.) the Central Station infrastructure is exceptionally vulnerable to damage from rising sea levels...
 
> Cape bridge replacements should take priority

Talk about a windshield perspective!

But more seriously, it reads like a person who doesn't really understand the situation, and doesn't want to research it in depth. Just sort of skimming over talking points people already familiar with the debate know. Doesn't help that it's basically a high schooler's five paragraph essay (probably is, given that I bet it was written by a staffer)
 

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