Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

[ritchiew]

Lynch: West-East Rail More Important than Boston North-South Rail Link

A top local congressman says he thinks pursuing the North-South Rail Link between Boston's busiest commuter rail hubs may be a waste of time.

bankerandtradesman.com

So if we put our project forward and say ‘We want $20 billion for a tunnel so people don’t have to change trains’ — we lose, we lose, we lose,” Lynch said.

Holy crap. So our guy in congress is showing up to committee meetings, drastically exaggerating the costs of NSRL and underselling the benefits? Then gets frustrated we can't win federal money for some reason? wtf?

 

[Balerion]

Lynch: West-East Rail More Important than Boston North-South Rail Link

A top local congressman says he thinks pursuing the North-South Rail Link between Boston's busiest commuter rail hubs may be a waste of time.

bankerandtradesman.com

It's tough when even the guy in favor of the NSRL can only articulate secondary benefits of the project (e.g. Salem-to-South Shore travel) and not the main purpose of it (speed & frequency of service).

 

[Aprehensive_Words]

It's tough when even the guy in favor of the NSRL can only articulate secondary benefits of the project (e.g. Salem-to-South Shore travel) and not the main purpose of it (speed & frequency of service).

And when he's not exactly gone out of his way to make himself the most-loved member of the Democratic caucus.

 

[thepixelnation]

Lynch: West-East Rail More Important than Boston North-South Rail Link

A top local congressman says he thinks pursuing the North-South Rail Link between Boston's busiest commuter rail hubs may be a waste of time.

bankerandtradesman.com

I feel like that first quote you included seems like a bad faith argument. All of the other examples can also be explained away with "it's just another tunnel" for New Jersey, "another highway expansion" for Arizona, "another airport expansion" for Chicago. All of these projects would make travel more efficient in each of these places, just like it would do with the NSRL.

We want $20 billion for a tunnel so people don’t have to change trains’ — we lose, we lose, we lose,” Lynch said.

You are going to lose if you say you want $20 Billion for a tunnel so people don't have to change trains. NSLR could potentially change a 4-train journey to a 1-train journey, will unite the North and South shores. But it will also connect Connecticut and Rhode Island with Maine and (potentially) New Hampshire. I wish some of those states would throw their hats in the ring to support the NSRL, but that's a tough sell as well.

I don't like Moulton, but bringing down a 2-hour journey to a 40 minute journey is the real argument here. That's what another tunnel can do for New Jersey, what more highway can do for Arizona.

 

[bigpicture7]

I can fix this for all of our esteemed congresspersons:

"Boston NSRL - a way to ensure less traffic and speedier highway travel in cars for those who opt to drive in the entire metro region!"

 

[thepixelnation]

And when he's not exactly gone out of his way to make himself the most-loved member of the Democratic caucus.

I think it's time for Mass to find a new Rail representative. A lot of people who push for progressive transit law are the same people pushing for trans rights, esp in the Boston area. I definitely retreated from support for Moulton after his comments, and I assume a lot of others too.

 

[samsongam]

“Think about the allocation of transportation money within our state,” Lynch said Monday. “We have spent tremendous amounts of money in the eastern — speaking to the choir I guess — in the greater Boston area. With the Big Dig, all the money we spent, the $18 billion there. We have spent nothing on the rest of the state.”

I love it when my congressman advocates for other districts' constituents rather than his own. Especially when we have close to the highest traffic and lowest affordability in the nation. The Big Dig fixed everything, we are way too spoiled.

For real though, is it even close comparing the "impact" of NSRL and East-West Rail?

it will also connect Connecticut and Rhode Island with Maine and (potentially) New Hampshire.

Exactly! Think about all the other districts with their own congresspeople that Lynch could advocate for. Seems like NSRL would directly and significantly improve rail transit in all Massachusetts districts aside from maybe Neal's.

 

[TheRatmeister]

(speed & frequency of service)

This is a benefit of electrification, not NSRL.

But it will also connect Connecticut and Rhode Island with Maine and (potentially) New Hampshire. I wish some of those states would throw their hats in the ring to support the NSRL, but that's a tough sell as well.

Until some neighboring states can get on board it's not happening, and I would argue that the effort would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[thepixelnation]

This is a benefit of electrification, not NSRL.

Until some neighboring states can get on board it's not happening, and I would argue that the effort would be better spent elsewhere.

I think it'll be if/when the Northeast Megalopolis solidifies, the NSRL will be a no brainer. Obviously looking to the far future here, but NSRL is a future proofing scheme. As temperature rises, we'll have more people move to NH and Maine, who will probably look at NSRL more positively than others.

 

[RandomWalk]

In a world of Congressional horse trading, what do MA or New England politicians have to offer politicians from other regions for their votes to fund NSRL?

Absent that, what alternatives are available that don’t involve Fed funding?

 

[FK4]

He’s right about how it would be perceived at the Federal level.

I think our best chance for Federal money that improves the Commuter Rail system (like we got for North Station Draw) would be for smaller (than NSRL) projects like Old Colony Double Track.

Yeah, because US citizens don’t have the ability to visualize dynamic situations. The NSRL isn’t important for its direct benefits but for what it opens up in the long run. It’s a gift that keeps on giving as each development shapes further developments. But shortsighted pols and citizens are too blinded by greed and ignorance to understand this. Plus, the east west rail is really more popular because it steers money to multiple districts, let’s be honest here. NSRL is a project that only benefits Boston workers; the East West rail puts money in the pockets cities and towns from Boston to Springfield, even if it’s a lot less dough. So pathetic how this system fails.

 

[sean99090900]

I probably shouldn’t be saying this as a member of the delegation from Boston, but let’s be fair, and let’s try to get the most impact

It's not really in the article, but I can't help thinking about what a national politician might see when they think about maximizing impact. If we are up against a project in Arizona, which 1) is electorally significant, 2) builds housing like there's no tomorrow, and 3) has significantly cheaper construction costs, we lose on all three fronts from a benefit per federal dollar spent calculation.

I think NSRL would be much more clearly a no-brainer if especially the outlying communities affected were clearly willing to build out like the Phoenix suburbs. As it stands now, it's controversial to do the bare minimum MBTA communities rezoning. As for 1 and 3, I don't know if anything can be done to improve our case lol.

 

[737900er]

Until some neighboring states can get on board it's not happening, and I would argue that the effort would be better spent elsewhere.

Yeah, I think Maine and New Hampshire are the main ones. The benefits to the Downeaster are obvious and similar benefits could accrue to other NER services in those states, kind of like the Virginia services today.

 

[lainpimicaja]

Holy crap. So our guy in congress is showing up to committee meetings, drastically exaggerating the costs of NSRL and underselling the benefits? Then gets frustrated we can't win federal money for some reason? wtf?

Yeah, I read this and thought "well, it sounds like Lynch isn't cut out for being in Congress anymore if he can't fight for major projects in his district." So much for seniority in Congress equaling clout.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Maybe we need to break the mindset that all transportation infrastructure needs to be paid for by sucking at the Federal teat.

The East Boston Rail tunnel and the Sumner tunnel were paid for locally, by the Commonwealth and the City of Boston. Even the Callahan tunnel only had modest Federal support, most came from the Commonwealth. If we want nice things maybe we need to pay for them.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Ironic that the first post on this very long thread 18 years ago was a Globe op-ed by Lynch advocating for NSRL.

That pungent smell is somebody persisting long past their expiration date.

 

[BosMaineiac]

Ironic that the first post on this very long thread 18 years ago was a Globe op-ed by Lynch advocating for NSRL.

That pungent smell is somebody persisting long past their expiration date.

There really needs to be a new type of messaging (or new messenger) to get people excited for this type of project, and transit projects in general. Looking at the sentiment for the BHA bus lanes, for example, and you hear the same old tropes about traffic concerns and that adding travel lanes will help that. The sentiments go deep, too, with echoes inside government agencies.

How do you fix traffic problems in Boston? More transit, plain and simple. You see the chaos that shutting down the red line causes. Traffic is bad but without the T it’s absolute gridlock. Communicating that transit expansion and luring people out of their personal cars (not forcing) is the solution needs to be loud and clear.

 

[Riverside]

Lynch: West-East Rail More Important than Boston North-South Rail Link

A top local congressman says he thinks pursuing the North-South Rail Link between Boston's busiest commuter rail hubs may be a waste of time.

bankerandtradesman.com

“Having sat on the Transportation Committee, being a party to the debate that goes on between states that we negotiate with: New Jersey has a tunnel they want; Arizona wants to add 500 miles of highway. There are all these competing — Chicago wants to expand their airport — we’re competing for dollars. We sit as a committee and we review the impact. So if we put our project forward and say ‘We want $20 billion for a tunnel so people don’t have to change trains’ — we lose, we lose, we lose,” Lynch said.

“I probably shouldn’t be saying this as a member of the delegation from Boston, but let’s be fair, and let’s try to get the most impact. That argument would be valid in Congress, and I think would be a winning suggestion, especially with Congressman Neal if he comes chair of Ways and Means. That’s something that is near and dear to his heart. He would like to see the infrastructure and the rail capacity increased,” Lynch said.

Alright, well, I guess I'm gonna grab the third rail here: Lynch is right. West-East Rail is more important than the North South Rail Link.

In an ideal world, these projects would not be in competition. But they are. West-East Rail is less expensive, easier to build incrementally, has a broader constituency, and expands service to new places. W-E has also seen actual movement and momentum in the last five years; we've been trying to push the NSRL boulder up the hill for 30 years, and it hasn't moved an inch. Advocating for "the North South Rail Link" has proven ineffective. There are other projects worthy of attention, and in terms of federal funding, I would absolutely prioritize multiple projects ahead of NSRL, including:

• East-West Rail
• Regional rail electrification (a prequisite for NSRL anyway)
• Blue-Red
• BLX to Lynn
• A greenfield subway that serves a transit desert, whether that's something circumferential, or something to Nubian or Chelsea or Allston
• A third bore for the Ted Williams Tunnel for transit

 

[themissinglink]

There are other projects worthy of attention, and in terms of federal funding, I would absolutely prioritize multiple projects ahead of NSRL, including:

• East-West Rail
• Regional rail electrification (a prequisite for NSRL anyway)
• Blue-Red
• BLX to Lynn
• A greenfield subway that serves a transit desert, whether that's something circumferential, or something to Nubian or Chelsea or Allston
• A third bore for the Ted Williams Tunnel for transit

I'd also add replacing the Needham Line with the OL and a branch of the GL, and maybe Cape Cod Commuter Rail, but SCR has kinda screwed that one up.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Alright, well, I guess I'm gonna grab the third rail here: Lynch is right. West-East Rail is more important than the North South Rail Link.

In an ideal world, these projects would not be in competition. But they are. West-East Rail is less expensive, easier to build incrementally, has a broader constituency, and expands service to new places. W-E has also seen actual movement and momentum in the last five years; we've been trying to push the NSRL boulder up the hill for 30 years, and it hasn't moved an inch. Advocating for "the North South Rail Link" has proven ineffective.

The official talking points on NSRL have been crap for about 20 years now, and don't capture the purpose-and-need well at all. Lots and lots about "One-mile gap!" as if one-seat to North Station from the south and South Station/Back Bay from the north is the be-all/end-all when people can't perceive not taking the subway to get around the CBD, and lots of very muddled prognostications about run-thru like "Worcester to Rockport! Fitchburg to Greenbush!" as if there's gigantic end-to-ender audiences hiding under a rock. Blame the loud Dukakis/Weld/Salvucci lobby for that messaging FAIL, as those old fossils simply can't perceive of a system that operates differently from the 9-5'er, suburban park-and-rides to CBD status quo. And then there's the equally loud Seth Moultons of the world who are all "Stub-end ops is icky and 19th century!" as if modernization can't be done without an $8B tunnel, when that just flies over the heads of nearly all constituents who can't even perceive what ops reform even looks like much less how it benefits them and whose only concrete reference point for the run-thru revolution is...SEPTA, which slashed its system to near-uselessness in coverage and frequency when it opened its expensive run-thru tunnel and saw ridership crater for 40 years as a result.

Not once are "Frequencies! Frequencies! Frequencies!" mentioned. Not once are "new intermediate-to-intermediate origins and destinations expanding the job market vs. housing options" mentioned. Not once is "new means of car-free or car-few living and working" mentioned, or "cascading wave of suburban connecting transit expansion" mentioned. Not once is "cascading wave of reconfigured downtown and radial transit to redistribute (over)loads" mentioned. Not once is "traffic relief for our daily living-hell commutes" mentioned. Not once is "new means of easy-grab non-work trips" mentioned. Not once is "expansion of the intercity map to new destinations in Northern New England and new trans-region access to an expanded Eastern Seaboard network" mentioned. Not once is "if you think Regional Rail as proposed is gonna be fan-fucking-tastic, just wait till you see what's in store for the encore!" mentioned.

No. It's all "same park-and-ride, same need to check-check-check that paper schedule, different landing spot in the CBD (where you still probably have to take a subway line or two to get to final destination), stars-align chance you might get to live in a different suburb or work in a different Gateway City if the right pair-match happens to come to your line (and if not...status quo)". And that's a shitty, shitty whiff on the messaging. I absolutely believe that NSRL is the most transformative transportation project the entirety of New England can mount. Easily. The East-West comparison is silly-trivial compared to the coattails of the Link. Like...shouldn't even be in the same universe. One is an incremental and lower-impact enhancement opening up of beneficial out-of-region opportunities several times a day, one is knitting Greater Boston (and out-of-region destinations) together exponentially tighter than ever before all day long at maximal economic impact. But we're reduced it to an unfavorable direct comparison because no one in a seat of power can @#$% explain what NSRL does. They can explain what East-West does more or less. They can't with NSRL. Therefore even with cavernous differences in scope and impact, NSRL pans out unfavorable.

It's not because the project itself is unfavorable. It's because nobody can give a straight answer on what it bloody is and bloody does. A purpose-and-need statement is the #1 step to mounting any initiative. And despite all the information out there (especially with the fast-rising Regional Rail talking points), those in leadership positions simply cannot get their stories straight enough to make a case. It's a colossal failure with a whole generation (or two or three) of Massachusetts leaders. And it's probably not going to get better until we clean house of all the old fossils like Lynch and the misguided Moultons and get some people who can straight-talk the run-thru and capacity-increase benefits like the Regional Rail advocacy has been able to straight-talk the general ops reform benefits. It's still a #1 transformational project target; that's never changed. The messaging needs to change, and who's talking about it clearly needs to very much change.