Ride & Car Sharing: Uber, Lyft, Sidecar, Zipcar, Relay Rides

[Arlington]

Since ride sharing and car sharing are increasingly part of the urban transit ecosystem, I thought they should have their own thread. Here it is.

Ride Sharing = Car that comes with a driver (e.g., Uber, Lyft, Sidecar)
Car Sharing = Short-term car rental (e.g., Zipcar & Relay Rides)

Of immediate interest is the push and pull of regulation in Cambridge, where an attempt last year to impose taxi controls was struck down, but a new movement was afoot to (effectively) ban Uber. I went to the overflow meeting @ 851 Mass Ave (02139) last night, and the overflow of people in the hallway looked like a lot of techhies who would be up in arms if Uber were curtailed.

It isn't a total, straight Free Markets vs Taxi Luddites, but IMO, it sure is close. If traditional Cambridge "Liberals" can't deliver pro-consumer competition here, this could be that moment the Libertarians have been waiting for.

The complaint of a blind patron (with guide dog) who is denied rides on the {ride}-shares should make us see the value of some pro-consumer regulation here.

But beyond that, you have regulators who forget whom "the meter" and "the receipt" were designed to protect (consumers) and need to be shown that Uber's hailing, tracking, metering, payment, pricing, price-alternatives, and receipt are kick-ass pro-consumer reasons why Uber has taken 30% to 40% of the cab business (but also, I suspect, grown the market by as much as it has taken from cabs--I give Uber trips that I'd have NEVER given to a taxi).

Nice summation from David Harris of the BBJ from his larger article Why Cambridge must adapt to Uber, Lyft and other ride-sharing services.

And although License Commission members were clear at the hearing that no rules were final and that no votes would be taken, the draft rules were labeled as being products of Luddites by at least two Uber supporters who spoke at the hearing.

And, at certain times, that disconnect was clear.

Gerald Reardon, the city's fire chief and a member of the License Commission, asked an Uber representative if Uber vehicles were capable of spitting out paper receipts, which drew laughter in the crowd. But the point was clear that a chasm exists between those who are tasked with crafting regulations and those who are championing technological innovation within the Commonwealth.

Some other good reading:
http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/b...ger-he-citys-not-trying-to-make.html?page=all

 

[Matthew]

The complaint of a blind patron (with guide dog) who is denied rides on the car-shares should make us see the value of some pro-consumer regulation here.

You already mixed up your terminology

BTW, Sassy (who spoke) is great. I got to meet her at an MBTA public hearing, after she tore into the T for their idiotic front door policy and the way it impedes service for their vision-impaired customers.

 

[Arlington]

You already mixed up your terminology

<sigh> and I had tried so hard. Well, I've fixed it to {ride}-shares, but am happy to be corrected in the record.

 

[Tombstoner]

It's hard to sympathize with the taxi industry. I don't blame the drivers, but someone is making a buttload of $ off metro consumers or it is highly inefficient. Bring on the competition!

 

[matredsoxfan]

I agree and I am a taxi driver in Waltham. I do agree with the taxi industry though that each of the vehicles needs livery/taxi plates and licenses. It infuriates me when a vehicle with regular passenger plates picks someone up. They get plates they can operate as much as they want until then they need to stay away.

 

[statler]

If this all gets settled in Uber's favor, what would the advantage be to buying a medallion? Why would anybody be a cab driver with all the associated costs and regulations when you can do the same thing with a fraction of the overhead?

 

[mass88]

Unless Uber has their sometimes crazy surge pricing, I haven't used a cab in months in Boston in months. Uber has come in an offered a much better product than cabs, imo. No need to worry about taking out money, no need to worry about getting attitude when you say you're paying with a card, or being told they don't want to take you somewhere.

 

[MBTAddict]

Unless Uber has their sometimes crazy surge pricing, I haven't used a cab in months in Boston in months. Uber has come in an offered a much better product than cabs, imo. No need to worry about taking out money, no need to worry about getting attitude when you say you're paying with a card, or being told they don't want to take you somewhere.

That's not always the case. I don't use UberX, but I do use UberTaxi, and I'd say 1 out of every 10 times I request a taxi, I'll get a call asking where I am going, then when the driver hangs up, they cancel the ride.

I'd say this is the only way UberTaxi isn't as good as a cab. When I hail a taxi on the street and get in, it's a hell of a lot more difficult for the driver to not go where I tell him.

I think what Uber is really capitalizing on is how segmented the metro area is. If we had a regional cab system that allowed taxis to pick up and drop off in more than one municipality, I think it would go a long way to bringing some better service to residents.

 

[choo]

Is UberTaxi actually just hailing city cabs? I use uberX and uber but never have used ubertaxi- why would you? The rates are local cab rates and if they are in local cabs both are worse than uberX. Your example seems to highlight that cabs suck. Uber actually is regional, which does go a long way to cut down the problem.

 

[Arlington]

...each of the vehicles needs livery/taxi plates and licenses.

What's so magical about a license plate? A far as I can tell, they have as much benefit to driver and passenger as Dumbo's Magic Feather did. Name one/some/any consumer benefit that a license plate delivers that cannot be delivered by the supercomputers that passenger and driver both now carry with Uber.

Should drivers be not-psycho? Sure. Require background checks
Should drivers know how to get there? Sure. Require GPS
Should metering be honest? Sure. Audit the software
Should receipts be provided? Sure. Uber sends me one that shows the route we took
Should price, supply, and quality fluctuate with demand? Sure. Taxi's response is to make you share rides or pay a Snow Emergency surcharge. Uber's is to make you pay a surge price for a ride alone. Basically the same thing.

Thus far, the experience is equal or better on Uber without the magic of hackney plates. Now lets try:

Should you know when a cab is coming? Yes. Uber shows me live. Taxi dispatchers say "10 to 15 mins" and hang up.

Should you be able to get a price estimate in advance? Yes. Uber makes it easy. Dispatchers? They'll only quote the Airport.

Should taxis take credit cards? Yes. Uber always does.

Should drivers cheat by going the long way? No. Let's discourage that by requiring receipts to show the route you took (Uber does, cabs don't)

Should cars be in good condition and safe?
- my Ubers are newer
- my Ubers have seatbelts
- my Ubers are quiet, have trunks that latch, and don't have visible parts missing
-my Ubers have Mass plates so they are insured and annually inspected (which can be manipulated, sure, but I assume taxis play that game at least as often)

And with Uber, it is all being reviewed by every rider--every passenger is a hackney inspector with a camera and instant-ratings power.

Taxi licenses made sense when, to keep customers safe, you needed a whole bunch of paperwork. But now passengers have a fricken supercomputer on them. As a practical matter, Uber riders, once the background check on the driver is done have everything they need: 911 Fire, 911 Police, 911 Text silent alarm, Live map, GPS tracking, Cashless payment, still camera, hidden mike, video recorder, and instant feedback.

If you ask me which "system" is more likely to "fail" a passenger, it is the licensing system, not the Uber system.

 

[Arlington]

Surge pricing is good. If you believe in supply and demand, your way of demanding more supply is to offer a price high enough to (1) entice new suppliers and (2) discourage non-critical trips.

Paying more is consumer-empowerment when it is used to say to drivers "get in your car and come get me now, this trip is important".

As noted above, the taxi counterpart is the snow emergency surcharge or when they force you to share a ride with a stranger and give you no discount.

Both are legitimate incentive and capacity-allocation plans, and each will have its fans. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

 

[MBTAddict]

Is UberTaxi actually just hailing city cabs? I use uberX and uber but never have used ubertaxi- why would you? The rates are local cab rates and if they are in local cabs both are worse than uberX. Your example seems to highlight that cabs suck. Uber actually is regional, which does go a long way to cut down the problem.

I use UberTaxi for regular taxis because then I don't have to try and figure out if the taxi approaching me has a fare already or not, I don't need to compete with a lot of other people in the same spot trying to get a cab, and I know they won't give me a hard time about using my card.

My example was more to highlight that Uber doesn't magically erase the issue of rides being denied, that's all. Overall I prefer UberTaxi to just going out and trying to hail one on the street or calling ahead for one.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

Did anyone try UberBoat?

 

[Matthew]

Is UberTaxi actually just hailing city cabs? I use uberX and uber but never have used ubertaxi- why would you?

UberTaxi is exactly the same as hailing a taxicab except that the payment is processed through Uber and you can track the car on your smart phone. The fare is determined by the meter, not GPS, and the cost is just the ordinary taxi fare that the driver plugs into the app after the ride is finished.

UberX and UberBlack adjust prices to match demand, whereas UberTaxi does not adjust prices and is therefore often short on supply -- also only a few taxis participate. But UberTaxi could be viewed as the "fixed price" alternative to the variably priced UberX and UberBlack, especially if more taxis participated in it.

I think that at around 1.8-2.0X surge pricing the taxi pricing starts to look better than UberX. Of course, that's usually the same time that no taxis are available anyway.

(For all that people whine about surge pricing, I find it fascinating from an economics nerd perspective. For a nation that supposedly prides itself on capitalism, Americans are a bunch of fucking communist bastards when it comes to transportation.)

 

[Arlington]

(For all that people whine about surge pricing, I find it fascinating from an economics nerd perspective.

They complain, yes, but I'm hoping its more like complaining about the weather: not really thinking that somebody should make it different than it is.

Is Uber surge pricing a smooth curve or a step function (like variable tolls going in nickel increments)? If a step function, how big are the jumps?

 

[statler]

So if a Uber driver rips off a passenger or turns into a pycho, what recourse does the passenger have?
If there is no medallion to take away, what stops them from taking passengers?

 

[Matthew]

They complain, yes, but I'm hoping its more like complaining about the weather: not really thinking that somebody should make it different than it is.

I dunno. Unlike the weather, some populist politician could step in and make a regulation that affects surge pricing. And there is no shortage of stupid politicians, nor shortage of short-sighted selfish constituents for them to pander to. Just look at what happens when there is a gasoline shortage, for example. NJ/NY had a case recently during the hurricane, where all the morons like Christie got up and grandstanded about cracking down on "price gougers". Nevermind that there was a tremendous shortage of fuel, with inability to resupply, the politicians forced all the gas stations to run dry. And was there any reflection on the outcome? No, of course not.

As far as I can tell, Uber surge pricing works in increments of 25%: 1.0, 1.25, 1.50, 1.75, 2.0, etc. I've seen 4.0x during a terrible snowstorm, heard of 8.0x in other places. Whatever it is, Uber always makes you type in the multiplier with your phones keypad and agree that you understand before you are able to proceed. Which should be sufficient notice to just about anyone, but I guess there are a lot of idiots out there.

I noticed that in new markets like Pittsburgh and Worcester there is no surge pricing, so you could wait upwards of 20 minutes (or just get nothing) for a pick up.

 

[Matthew]

So if a Uber driver rips off a passenger or turns into a pycho, what recourse does the passenger have?
If there is no medallion to take away, what stops them from taking passengers?

Presumably, Uber stops allowing them to respond to ride requests, since they have to have an account in good standing with the company. I suppose this is something that needs to be tested more, but it seems to work so far. Payment and tracking is handled by Uber, not the driver, so he can't rip you off that way. Of course if the driver does something truly criminal that's what the police are for: just like being in any public space, FWIW.

Whenever you finish a ride, the app asks you for a rating (1 to 5) and comments. If a driver gets enough bad ratings then Uber supposedly suspends their account. You can respond to the email receipt to report lost items or other problems. The one time I wrote to customer service (just to change my payment method, not a problem) they responded within an hour or two and fixed it.

I think the rating system is a good idea and keeps drivers more honest than taxicabs, who get away with some truly atrocious behavior.

I waited a long time before trying the Uber app, I don't think I started using it until late last year. I use it about twice a month now, on average. I haven't had any regrets about it, but I am interested in checking out some of the competition like Sidecar. My friend has a Lyft driver account and seems to do alright, but I really hate their shtick with the pink mustache, so I refuse to use it.

 

[Arlington]

Lets help Statler with this hypothetical. If you are a crook or a psycho, do you prefer the "your word against his" environment of a cab or the fully-documented / tracked workplace of an Uber? I'm thinking nice drivers would gravitate to the nice car and the "transparent" workplace and "the best" are limo/black car drivers and the next tier of nice people (generally more-recent immigrants, it seems) work for Uber, and few went into taxis (or left as soon as they could). Both Uber drivers and passengers feel watched in ways that you just don't in a taxi. Generally people behave better when they feel they're being watched.

So if a Uber driver rips off a passenger..., what recourse does the passenger have?

It depends on the ripoff. If the ripoff rises to the level of being criminal, bring a criminal charge. That's always going to trump licenses.

If it is an an ordinary consumer ripoff, first let's stipulate that all the tracking that Uber offers should make ordinary consumer ripoffs (like paying $30 for what should have been a $20 ride) harder, less likely, and not a good strategy
1) Dispute the credit card charge--that's how you paid.
2) Give low rating--the buttons are right there in the app.
3) Complain to Uber--you've got the documentary proof

Uber makes ride sharing a "repeated game" where in each round you carry forward a little bit of "how you behaved" in the round before. In such "games" the optimal strategy is to cooperate, and you're less likely to cheat (passengers can't stiff on tips, either). Regular cab rides are too often like a single Prisoner's Dilemma, where both sides optimal approach is to cheat--the driver wants to go the long way, and the passenger wants to stiff on tip.

If you like having the option of stiffing on the tip, you take a cab. If you believe that feedback is a more powerful weapon than tips, you take an Uber (or Black Car)

So if a Uber driver turns into a pycho, what recourse does the passenger have?

It depends on the psycho too. Please give us a scenario to respond to and show how a hack license is a shield against psycho.

 

[JumboBuc]

I use UberX somewhat regularly, and on two occasions the driver didn't quite know where he was going and ended up taking a route that cost more than it should have. Both times I replied to Uber's receipt email with my complaints, and each time they promptly refunded me the difference in price between the optimal route and the route the driver took. There is NO WAY you'd ever get that kind of service in a traditional cab. I hear a bunch of worries about Uber and their like (sketchy drivers, unsafe cars, unfair billing) and I can never figure out how each worry doesn't apply even more so to traditional taxis.

I have a friend who drove for Sidecar for a bit, and I've tried using them, but I've never been able to find an available driver. Uber is clearly the biggest player in this space, and now network effects are working in their favor so that other players are having a hard time catching up. Passengers want to ride with Uber because they have the most drivers, and drivers want to drive for Uber because they have the most passengers. It's a self-fulfilling cycle that results in Uber growing and growing.

I also think it's interesting how Uber is helping people go car-free or car-lite. There was an interesting piece about this in the NY Times last week...

Also, discussions about Uber are frequently framed in the context of them destroying the traditional taxi business. This simply isn't the case. Uber may be growing incredibly quickly, but traditional taxis are still a MUCH larger business. And Uber may be popular among young, wealthy, tech-savvy urbanites, but most people aren't young, wealthy, tech-savvy urbanites. In fact, in the face of competition from Uber, Boston taxi medallion prices are steadily rising! Prices are up about $100k in the last year! If Uber and other services like it were truly crushing the traditional cab business, the price of traded medallions would be falling, not rising. I think a lot of Uber's business comes from induced demand, where Uber is so convenient that people use it for trips they never would have used a cab for previously...