Rose Kennedy Greenway

FYI the fountain is fixed and working great....

In fact it looks like they upgraded the system. (or maybe it's just my imagination)

But the jets of water were shooting out of sidewalk to a height of nearly 20 feet....and it seemed to be working at a much more rapid pace.
 
It only cost the TAXPAYERS 20 Billion for a strip of concrete.

Thanks to the State officials for all their positive changes to this city.
 
It only cost the TAXPAYERS 20 Billion for a strip of concrete.

Thanks to the State officials for all their positive changes to this city.

The Big Dig is not just a positive change to this city, it's a huge change to this city! Call me a cheerleader when it comes to the Dig but I love the tunnels (and there are miles of them), I love the Zakim, I love the fact that you can actually drive through the city or to Logan (I rarely do..always use the Silver Line/Commuter Rail when I fly in/out of town) and the fact that the central artery is torn down. What would you have done Rifleman? The artery was crumbling, that was a fact, it had to come down! Thus, the big dig and the city is much better for it. I totally agree that the Greenway needs much improvement, that the greed of contractors and politicians upped the price by billions, but the region got much more than a strip of concrete. The Big Dig was one of the best things that has ever happened to Boston.
 
I have a possible thought. Well, I wouldn't know what to do differently with the artery. That did need help.


However, it is arguable that the 20 billion could have been used better. I recall once a person argued that it could been used to build the best light rail system in America.

That got me thinking though How much would it cost to build the Blue line to Salem and Charles MGH, Orange Line south, electrify and install the Indigo line, Green Line conversion to heavy rail (this have alot of variables with the question of the northern extension, but I think the surface can act like the Mattapan line), a part-heavy/part-light rail urban ring, and the north-south rail link?

I know 600 million is the cost for Green line north extention and I would probably ball park 6 billion for the north south thing.
 
Wasn't it closer to $30b? And yes, with that kind of money, couldn't we have the best light rail system in the world? Probably. But we also could have a the best light rail system, at least in America, if the Big Dig had been done efficiently, on time, and on budget, by comprehensive contractors, suppliers, and designers. But that's in fantasy land.
 
In retrospect, the better alternative might have been what San Francisco did after the Loma Prieta quake: take the elevated highway down, and don't replace it with any new highway at all.
 
^^ Exactly. Which is precisely what would have turned all of today's (toll-free) Zakim-tunnel-parkinggaragers into overnight transit enthusiasts.
 
The Big Dig is not just a positive change to this city, it's a huge change to this city! Call me a cheerleader when it comes to the Dig but I love the tunnels (and there are miles of them), I love the Zakim, I love the fact that you can actually drive through the city or to Logan (I rarely do..always use the Silver Line/Commuter Rail when I fly in/out of town) and the fact that the central artery is torn down. What would you have done Rifleman? The artery was crumbling, that was a fact, it had to come down! Thus, the big dig and the city is much better for it. I totally agree that the Greenway needs much improvement, that the greed of contractors and politicians upped the price by billions, but the region got much more than a strip of concrete. The Big Dig was one of the best things that has ever happened to Boston.


20 or 30 billion whatever the final cost of the big dig was. The taxpayers got scammed. I'm not saying the Big Dig didn't have a great vision. I'm saying the taxpayers got scammed out of billions of dollars. Alot of companies and politicians stole money and bidd rigging scams. Companies were stealing the materials (steel) and shipping it to the Chinese.

20 or 30 billion could probably rebuild the entire midwest of the United States especially in the 80's. My point is if they should have prepared for worst case and best case scenarios with the best most reputable construction & engineering companies in the world for infrastructure building.

Letting city officials be involved in the BIG DIG was a mess until the Federal Govt. finally stepped in and said enough is enough.
 
In retrospect, the better alternative might have been what San Francisco did after the Loma Prieta quake: take the elevated highway down, and don't replace it with any new highway at all.
Even before Loma Prieta, San Francisco was a city replete with freeways that were never completed; from a traffic standpoint, these truncated stubs of highways became expendable.

The expressway over the Embarcadero was never essential to going between point A and point B in San Francisco. The northern section of the Central Freeway was never linked to other freeways, because the latter were never built. So, post earthquake, demolishing these two elevated frreways really had no great impact on San Francisco traffic flow.

The surface boulevards and streets that replace the Embarcadero and Central Freeways are wider than what was there before.

This is the last section of the Central Freeway to come down, near Octavia Boulevard.

central-freeway_11stbryant1.jpg


This is the new surface Octavia Boulevard, which a few have taken to calling the most dangerous street in San Francisco. Constructed circa 2005.

San_Francisco-Octavia_Boulevard.jpg


There are several sections of the new Octavia Boulevard that are nicer, but
for those who would replace the Greenway with a center strip of asphalt, have a look. Octavia Boulevard handles about 40,000 cars a day.
 
Mmm. I see stuff to like and stuff not to like.

The "like" part includes the automatic sprinklers. Nice.

Re: San Francisco. We lived out there for ten months back in 1992. At the time, they were arguing over plans to run the trolleys down Market Street. There were grand designs floating around of palm trees up and down the street.

You think nothing ever gets done in Boston, well in SF, nothing gets done, times 100. Everyone is so fucking neurotic.

At least, in most cases. When I left, I said, "God, nothing will ever come of this," regarding the Market Street plans.

As most of you know, they DID do the project and it looks fantastic. To some degree, the streetcars are redundant (the MUNI runs below it along the same route, if I'm not mistaken, from Castro to Civic Center) but people use them, tourists and locals, alike. More importantly, the landscaping along Market Street was done just right. If memory serves, there is much more retail activity along the dead area near Church Street.

We were in SF in 2007 and the waterfront / Embarcadero definitely could use some life but it still seems brighter and more pedestrian-friendly than what was there, before.
 
The Big Dig didn't cost nearly $30B. The total comes from things like "The Charles River Skate Park" that is largely unused, the "Northpoint Park System" which is largely unused. And the Commuter boat dock at Lovejoy Wharf, which is actually boarded up and abandoned - never used. And the master plans for the area south of the Leather District - which cost a lot, and accomplished nothing. And the planning for wildly expensive, whimsical, Quixotic "Gardens under Glass" and cultural institutions perched precariously and expensively over highway ramps that only a moron would think is a reasonable idea. And the cost of the Big Dig included brand new offices for the Mass Pike Authority, with all Class-A amenities. And don't forget that the cost of the Big Dig also included massive "linkage" payments to Southie. And a train to Scituate that is largely unused. And a completely and totally unused and unnecessary, beautifully-landscaped little park at the corner of I-93, the Broadway Bridge, train tracks and hell.

Mike Dukakis & Salvucci created the Big Dig with a great vision in mind, yet with no managerial fortitude to see that vision through. They let every special interest group get their fingers in the pie, and in the largest failure imaginable, the actually forfeited the right for this project to pay for itself. Sitting on a legitimate goldmine, they said "no thanks" and barred development on the land they were creating. Genius. Thirty years after their hair-brained scheme was cooked up, we are literally bankrupt because of it.

Digging the Big Dig was great, and didn't have to be such a mess - but the plan as outlined by the ridiculous Dukakis administration left the whole thing wide open to thievery, mismanagement and precluded the very real chance that the Big Dig might have actually turned a profit.

Here is an abandoned, boarded-up, five-year old ferry dock. No plans to re-open. It was a bone thrown to the public transit fascists to shut them up.

Lovejoy.jpg


Here's a little slice of industrial hell in Southie, magically transformed into a money pit (BTW it's much nicer and greener in person, this pic is early spring):
Park.jpg


And here's a very big, very, very expensive park (complete with elaborate and pricey tiled mosaics, and large monumental decorations) that is usually empty - even on beautiful days.

park2.jpg


Here's some of that expensive ceramic mosiacs that we paid for (in this beautiful, but largely unused park):

paulrevere3.jpg


paulrevere-3.jpg


paulrevere-2.jpg


Creating the new highway system did not cost $30B. We were doomed and bankrupted by poor financial planning from the very beginning start, the slew of special interest "mitigation" projects crammed into the project, and the shoddy and dangerous union labor that was used.

BTW, In 2001, George Bush lifted the restriction that said union labor had to be used on federal highway projects. But in Mass, the legislature wouldn't hear of it. A huge cost-savings was given to us, and we said "no thanks"

We deserve to be bankrupt.

The Big Dig should have been a new highway system, with the real estate created to pay for itself. Not dog parks in Charlestown or new community centers in Southie. Not trains to Scituate, not landscaping along industrial culverts. Just a new highway system that could have paid for itself.
 
Pelham, that was an excellent little piece. Usually I find myself disagreeing with you, but right here, you're spot on.
 
My favorite part was the "b...b...but Dukakis", while completely ignoring the fact that the bulk of the overruns and surface level planning happened during the Weld/Cellucci/Swift/Romney administrations.
But otherwise, spot on.
 
The Charles River Skate Park exists in the sense that it was planned, architecturally drawn, large funky lights lead you to where it should be. Plenty of people shook money out of that project - architects, engineers, marketing people, PR consultants, etc. The fact that it doesn't exist makes the money sink even worse, huh?

My point about Dukakis was that he is the one who made the two fatal flaws that doomed everyone and anyone who touched the project going forward:

1) Decreeing that 75% of the goldmine being created wouldn't be used to produce revenue.

2) Forging all the agreements for "mitigation" with all the special interests - tying the hands of every subsequent administration

The Dukakis legacy was a restriction on revenue, and the creation of massive costs. We were screwed before the first shovel hit the ground.

The only ray of hope we got was Bush's lifting of the union labor requirement on federal highway projects in 2001 (I think), and the Massachusetts legislature laughed the huge cost savings off. Their reason? Union labor is safer!

This was before the tunnel collapsed and killed a woman.

All I'm saying, is that "$30B" figure being bandied about is probably $15B in projects that aren't related in any manner to the burying of I-93 and the extension of I-90 to the airport.

---

I work in the North Station area. It was a beautiful day out there today - here's the Big Dig "Paul Revere Park" in Charlestown at lunch (1pm).... empty:

IMG_0429.jpg


Here's a playground at this Big Dig park - I've never seen anyone here but homeless people. Note the graffiti all over it:

IMG_0430.jpg


It's garbage-strewn, and those jersey barriers have been there since forever. I literally think some construction company trashed them there. It's a Big Dig park, nobody cares or wonders why the concrete garbage is sitting there. To the left, look at the graffiti all over the expensive ceramic mosaics:

IMG_0431.jpg


And probably the only real use of this park is for shady politician "types" to park here for free:

IMG_0432.jpg


This park cost millions. Multiply it by all the other garbage that encompasses "the Big Dig" and you can see the problem.

It did not cost $30B to build the highway system.
 
"The only ray of hope we got was Bush's lifting of the union labor requirement on federal highway projects in 2001"

Unfortunately President Obama immediately reversed that policy upon taking office.

I don't understand how discriminating against non-union companies is legal. Prevailing wage laws, which effectively bar competitive labor salaries within contracted companies, don't help either.

The Big Dig as one of the largest construction projects had plenty of time, money, and scope to pencil in every flaw in government sponsored construction administration.
 
And the Commuter boat dock at Lovejoy Wharf, which is actually boarded up and abandoned - never used

The ferry dock was used during several years at the height of the Big Dig, for boats between North Station and the Charlestown Navy Yard. I think some boats may also have gone out to the Fan Pier courthouse. The passenger load was not sufficient to sustain the operation once the Big Dig subsidy ended.

The skate park is to be built with private money raised by the Charles River Conservancy.
 

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