Rose Kennedy Greenway

[KentXie]

So let me get this straight, since the tax is voluntary, only some will contribute to the tax. How do they discriminate between those who paid and those who didn't? As in, won't those that didn't pay enjoy the benefits as long as their neighbors participate?

 

[datadyne007]

So let me get this straight, since the tax is voluntary, only some will contribute to the tax. How do they discriminate between those who paid and those who didn't? As in, won't those that didn't pay enjoy the benefits as long as their neighbors participate?

Huh? The voluntary tax is for corporate businesses to opt into. Everyone ends up enjoying it (as much as possible...) in the end... and the CEOs go skipping down the Greenway holding hands.

 

[TheRifleman]

It clearly says "voluntary tax." They're not shoving it down people's throats. They're giving people the option to help support it if they truly believe in it.

I don't see why people are getting their panties in a bunch over this.

"Voluntary Tax" Then why is the city giving tax breaks to certain companies like Liberty Mutual, Vertex and not others?

That is the issue if you need tax's you should not be giving tax breaks. You need to balance your budget then come up with ideas and community help then.

In reality they are taxing everybody they don't like and the people that vote them in get the tax breaks. That does not sound like accountability or transparancy anymore. Thats sounds like us vs them.

It sounds like if you don't give us money we will cut services in that area. The city officials have become a legalized Mob.


You must be a commie

 

[Sicilian]

They're all valid points (such as locked gates and poor upkeep), but I don't really see how it could happen with the Greenway. It's literally in the middle of the road as opposed to the public plazas that got privatized in NYC. The strip of the Greenway doesn't provide access to any buildings because no buildings actually front it.

Idk, maybe I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, but I don't see how the businesses could screw it up "more than it already is" (subjective).

I don't expect many to agree with me, and realize that the influence of private sector on public space can seem subtle. But it exists, often in the enforcement of regulations regarding the approved and disapproved uses of the space.

The first observation one notices when visiting a privately managed public space is the enforcement of various regulations which are geared toward attracting a particular type of user, and dissuading another. I don't think I want to get into a massive debate about who the "public" is, but privately managed public spaces benefit the abutters if they differentiate between one type of user and another.

As for streets separating RKG from abutters, that has little to do with the private management of space. Post Office Square serves its location incredibly well. But to suggest it is managed as a public space no different than Boston Common is incorrect. Park activities in Post Office Square are highly regulated and enforced to match the needs of abutters and their target users.

 

[datadyne007]

"Voluntary Tax" Then why is the city giving tax breaks to certain companies like Liberty Mutual, Vertex and not others?

That is the issue if you need tax's you should not be giving tax breaks. You need to balance your budget then come up with ideas and community help.

In reality they are taxing everybody they don't like and the people that vote them in get the tax breaks. That does not sound like accountability or transparancy anymore.

It sounds like if you don't give us money we will cut services in that area. The city officials have become a legalized Mob.


You must be a commie

I didn't say that supporting it was justified. My post simply said that if they want to support it, they can. I also did not say the budget was anywhere near perfect (it's not, the article that noted the Conservancy Exec makes WAY more than the Governor and Mayor is disgusting), which leads back to if businesses want to support something with a disaster of a budget, then so be it. It's their own choice.

 

[KentXie]

Huh? The voluntary tax is for corporate businesses to opt into. Everyone ends up enjoying it (as much as possible...) in the end... and the CEOs go skipping down the Greenway holding hands.

Which means that most if not all corporate businesses will opt not to in hopes that some other company forks over the money.

 

[datadyne007]

I don't expect many to agree with me, and realize that the influence of private sector on public space can seem subtle. But it exists, often in the enforcement of regulations regarding the approved and disapproved uses of the space.

The first observation one notices when visiting a privately managed public space is the enforcement of various regulations which are geared toward attracting a particular type of user, and dissuading another. I don't think I want to get into a massive debate about who the "public" is, but privately managed public spaces benefit the abutters if they differentiate between one type of user and another.

As for streets separating RKG from abutters, that has little to do with the private management of space. Post Office Square serves its location incredibly well. But to suggest it is managed as a public space no different than Boston Common is incorrect. Park activities in Post Office Square are highly regulated and enforced to match the needs of abutters and their target users.

I think the location and scope of the public area the RKG spans is critical in this case. Post Office Square is very much like a NYC-style plaza and hence it has been subtly tweaked to cater toward a certain user.

How do you even define a target user on the RKG? I'm not really combating your points about how plazas fall victim to privatization, but you just seem to keep bringing it up instead of relating it to a space that's similar to the RKG (is there even one?).

 

[TheRifleman]

I didn't say that supporting it was justified. My post simply said that if they want to support it, they can. I also did not say the budget was anywhere near perfect (it's not, the article that noted the Conservancy Exec makes WAY more than the Governor and Mayor is disgusting), which leads back to if businesses want to support something with a disaster of a budget, then so be it. It's their own choice.

The city really should selloff the Greenway parcels to the private sector with some special percs maybe some tax benefits to the companies that maintain them yearly. The tradeoff would be the landlords can maintain the parcels and design them at their own expense with sometype of small city guidelines.
This is how you eliminate maintenance costs per year to help you balance budgets. The problem is there is massive power struggle for the Greenway. The politician?s views and private sector or developers view.
Personally I would rather let the developers take over because the city really needs to start cutting expenses, unless the Kennedy family wants to start paying for some of the Greenway?s costs. The sad part is wasn?t Rose Kennedy a Florida resident so she could avoid paying Ma tax?s?

If Rose really did this ......talk about being Hypocrites to the taxpayers of Ma. We end up building a park to someone that avoided paying Massachusetts taxes.

 

[Sicilian]

I think the location and scope of the public area the RKG spans is critical in this case. Post Office Square is very much like a NYC-style plaza and hence it has been subtly tweaked to cater toward a certain user.

How do you even define a target user on the RKG? I'm not really combating your points about how plazas fall victim to privatization, but you just seem to keep bringing it up instead of relating it to a space that's similar to the RKG (is there even one?).

Again, my point is subtle and not widely shared.

I'll try to give you an example, albeit not a glaring one.

The influence of the Friends of the Public Garden over the public space is an example. I've walked by on many evenings in which a tent was erected, hosting a private event arranged by the Friends and/or other approved private parties. On a City's "public garden," this activity sends a message that the space endorses a societal recognition of haves and have-nots, a subtle message to society that the public spaces are not truly democratic. This message is carried forward in other facets of society.

Boston in particular has a reputation for treating insiders as a special class.

I think the point about private influence over public space is an important one, and one that Boston has not addressed well, particularly along the Waterfront.

 

[statler]

I see what you are saying, but to play the devil's advocate there is a flip side to that as well. The best example would be the North End. It is comprised of almost all 'private' space and yet is still one the most beloved area of the city. Another example would be City Hall Plaza. Wholly public, wholly terrible.
That's not to say we should privatize spaces like the Common or the Esplanade, but the lesson to be learned is that there is no 'one size fits all' answer to what is best for any given space.

 

[Sicilian]

Agreed, Statler.

And the RKG is large enough to manage a variety of influences.

That said, I am wary about the abutters of RKG. I attended many meetings hosted by the BRA and Equity Office, the prior owner of Atlantic Wharf (when it was still Russia Wharf). The BRA convened a panel to determine the best and highest use of civic and public space abutting the project. Since it was on tidelands that once were in the public trust, there was an obligation to consider the best and highest use of groundfloor and outdoor spaces (including potential for commercial uses).

The pressure by that property owner to develop spaces that would predominately serve the buildings users, rather than consideration of a wider audience, was quite intense ? sometimes hostile to members of the panel. In the end, I can tell you than few if any of the recommendations of the panel were adopted..

 

[statler]

The pressure by that property owner to develop spaces that would predominately serve the buildings users, rather than consideration of a wider audience, was quite intense ? sometimes hostile to members of the panel. In the end, I can tell you than few if any of the recommendations of the panel were adopted..

This sounds like a bigger concern. I'm not anti-private space, but that private space should carry a public benefit, if that make sense.

To drag in an argument from another thread. I'm in favor of leasing a small part of the Common to a private restaurant that serves the public. But if someone proposed (and no one has) a private function hall, I would be opposed to that.

 

[datadyne007]

This sounds like a bigger concern. I'm not anti-private space, but that private space should carry a public benefit, if that make sense.

To drag in an argument from another thread. I'm in favor of leasing a small part of the Common to a private restaurant that serves the public. But if someone proposed (and no one has) a private function hall, I would be opposed to that.

That was going to be my next point actually. Some privatization might actually help it because it will at least give the functionless space some sort of meaning. City Hall Plaza instantly came to my mind too. Wholly public, wholly horrible.

 

[Sicilian]

^data and ^statler

City Hall Plaza fails for many reasons which might lead one to argue it is too public. I'd rather suggest it's simply too vast, and the hardscape is too cold to invite compelling public uses. So, I would totally support a review of its public realm that included the possibility of including development.

As for the restaurant on the Common, I'm on the fence, but agree with your comparison with a function hall. I think a restaurant could have merit, and think I once enjoyed a meal somewhere in the middle of Central Park. But again, for the young citizen who turns to his father and says, "Dad, why can't we afford to eat in that restaurant?" sited on Boston Common, that is the subtle societal impact I don't like.

Public space has an important role in telling our young citizens that regardless of affordability, etc., they are equal to everyone else. Idealistic, yes, but something to think about.

 

[statler]

Public space has an important role in telling our young citizens that regardless of affordability, etc., they are to be treated equal to everyone else. Idealistic, yes, but something to think about.

Slight correction, but I get what you are saying...

I having a feeling others....might not agree.

 

[datadyne007]

I'd rather suggest it's simply too vast,

So is the Greenway.

and the hardscape is too cold to invite compelling public uses.

Yes, that is pretty much the real reason for CHP's failure. The bricks are cold, uneven, and downright dangerous. It also floods horribly. Ok, the Greenway is extremely lush and landscaped unlike CHP. That is one difference.

I'm on the same page with you on the rest of your ideas. I agree that if it is to be privatized it should be accessible to all in terms of access, cost, etc.

I honestly wouldn't be opposed to City Hall Plaza becoming Bank of America Plaza or something stupid like that if they actually funded a greening/terracing project for all to enjoy... or if they wanted to sponsor something on the Greenway, the Bank of America Tulip Garden or something.

 

[PaulC]

Ever wonder why the state transportation building is all brick? Dukakis won the endorsement of the brick layers union. Maybe the same thing with city hall plaza

 

[Sicilian]

I'm not really combating your points about how plazas fall victim to privatization, but you just seem to keep bringing it up instead of relating it to a space that's similar to the RKG (is there even one?).

FYI, thanks to the Conservancy and business interests, organized athletics are prohibited anywhere on the Greenway.

No ultimate frisbee. No pickup soccer games.

And that's where the regulations start. The allowable uses are those which suit the abutters, not necessarily those that suit the general population who paid for the park.

A BID tax will only increase the tension between public and private interest.

Conservancy Guidelines for the RKG

 

[Ron Newman]

I wouldn't call a pickup soccer game or ultimate frisbee "organized", so it wouldn't be covered by the rules.

 

[TheRifleman]

Drove down the RKG today. Atlantic Wharf project does nothing to justify the connection to the Greenway. I'm not saying Atlantic Wharf looks terrible, I don't mind what the building looks like but does nothing to connect to the Greenway.

Chiofaro/Pru have the most important parcel on the Greenway's at this point. In the end whatever he proposes will be the key to activating the Greenway to the Waterfront.

Without anything of real value built in that area I don't see how the Greenway will be a success in the future. It will be the most overvalued & overrated Median Strip in the country.

Also drove by City Hall, & Congress St Garage and can't believe how ugly those structures are.