Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Sure. Send the GL down to the Southie bus terminal at East 1st Street across from the park and send the SL1 to Logan.

I like this idea. It would also be a catalyst for further replacement of the SL in the future.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I like this idea. It would also be a catalyst for further replacement of the SL in the future.

Well you'll never replace the SL1 because they're never going to build a transit tunnel next to the Ted. We're stuck with the SL1 being our South Station connector to Logan. Linking the Transitway to the Green Line network has been discussed at length in the various transit pitch threads, and is probably the best way to get meaningful rail service to the seaport. But again, no one official is discussing it, so even it does happen someday, it won't be for several more decades.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

And as for the traffic concerns, if everyone who worked there didn't ignore the massive I-90 onramp smack in the middle of the area and instead sit in traffic to get onto the greenway, there would be no traffic. I can't have any empathy for people who are.... too stupid to look at a map for five seconds and see the duh obvious alternative of getting on I-90 at B street.

Greenway also leads to 93, 1, and Storrow/Memorial. 90 leads to tolls. Pretty sure this alternative ramp has no access to the aforementioned roads. I took it once by mistake, hoping for access, and instead ended up out by the airport.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Greenway also leads to 93, 1, and Storrow/Memorial. 90 leads to tolls. Pretty sure this alternative ramp has no access to the aforementioned roads. I took it once by mistake, hoping for access, and instead ended up out by the airport.

Case A in not consulting a map. You got on going the wrong way.

You want this sign.

Getting on 90W dumps you in the turbine south of south station, giving you access to both 93 north and south. 93 N of course getting you to every road you listed.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Case A in not consulting a map. You got on going the wrong way.

You want this sign.

Getting on 90W dumps you in the turbine south of south station, giving you access to both 93 north and south. 93 N of course getting you to every road you listed.

Oh yeah I wasn't right at that spot. I think I was a couple roads over, maybe A Street then got stuck on the bypass road or something. Whatever it was, it felt like I was caught in some endless loop and eventually I just went the wrong way on 90.

Didn't know about this exact ramp you posted, but usually I try to park on Summer St if anything, which forces me back to the greenway (or out near the carson beach/umb rotary, or maybe mass ave exit if I knew where I was going) anyway.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

And as for the traffic concerns, if everyone who worked there didn't ignore the massive I-90 onramp smack in the middle of the area and instead sit in traffic to get onto the greenway, there would be no traffic. I can't have any empathy for people who are 1) too self indulged to consider mass transit as an alternative and 2) too stupid to look at a map for five seconds and see the duh obvious alternative of getting on I-90 at B street.

Isn't the traffic from people trying to get onto I-93 North, not I-90? At least, that's what seems to back up the Seaport Blvd bridge. Your point remains though - there's an I-93 ramp just off Congress Street.

EDIT: DaveM beat me to it.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

This whole neighborhood reminds me of the Galleria district in Houston. Plenty of pleasant, high-end retailers to visit and lots of Class A office. But just not geared towards livability. Maybe the additional residential units will change that.
Quick anecdote: I was in the Galleria district for work a couple years ago. I asked the bell hop where I should head for dinner. Then we had this exchange:
Bellhop: The Galleria Mall is a few blocks north. I'll get you a cab.
Me: Can't I just walk it?
Bellhop: I guess, but it's like a half mile. I should get you a cab.
Me: I'll just walk.
Bellhop: Ok. But like I said, it's probably a half mile away!
He was right though. It took me ~30 minutes to walk the half mile because I had to wait at so many pedestrian crossings of 6 and 8 lane "boulevards" (which of course were all timed with cars in mind).

I don't think it's going to be quite that bad. The Sunbelt cities are horrid when it comes to walking. I've had similar experiences even in the "walkable" areas of Atlanta like Buckhead and Downtown (though Five Points wasn't bad). I think the amount of residential, along with cutting up some of the mega blocks in the larger developments like Fan Pier/Seaport Square will make this much more walkable than what you'll find in Houston. The blocks on the Seaport are larger than what we're used to in Boston, but they're still far smaller than your average Houston block.

It's certainly not a walkable area right now, but it's also just getting filled in. Once it's better developed, I have confidence it'll be much better. It's not going to be Back Bay, but it's going to be better than anything in the Sunbelt...it's going to be far denser than the Galleria in Houston.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The blocks on the Seaport are larger than what we're used to in Boston, but they're still far smaller than your average Houston block.
That's unfair to Houston. The blocks in downtown Houston are actually decently sized. About 350 ft on a side.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

That's unfair to Houston. The blocks in downtown Houston are actually decently sized. About 350 ft on a side.

Very true. I should have been more specific and said the Galleria area of Houston.

That said, I think the built-out Seaport will be more walkable than downtown Houston given the density of residential and lack of parking lots.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

So I'm not usually a big fan of interstate signs on our local streets, but perhaps a big I-93 sign at Seaport Blvd/Congress St at B street would help alleviate the traffic issue? As far as I can tell Congress Street only has a faded one, on the right side of the street, and Seaport Blvd has none. Hang a big sign on the traffic light gantry, see what happens. Perhaps a bit of public outreach to the parking garage owners to inform their clients there is a closer option would help as well.

People at Fan Pier and Seaport Square are always going to opt for the greenway ramps, but if you can get everyone east of B street to take that onramp it would alleviate traffic considerably. I'm not really sure what you can do about Summer St access, since it requires three lefts to get to B St (although Summer - D St - Congress - B St still seems preferable to fighting through Dewey Square, and they do all have left turn lanes).

Also, for some reason, there's not a dedicated left turn signal for B Street off of WB Seaport Blvd. They should fix that.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

So I'm not usually a big fan of interstate signs on our local streets, but perhaps a big I-93 sign at Seaport Blvd/Congress St at B street would help alleviate the traffic issue? As far as I can tell Congress Street only has a faded one, on the right side of the street, and Seaport Blvd has none. Hang a big sign on the traffic light gantry, see what happens. Perhaps a bit of public outreach to the parking garage owners to inform their clients there is a closer option would help as well.

Maybe the DeltaBravo hanging whiny signs all over the neighborhood can do something positive and hang the I93 sign for us.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Very true. I should have been more specific and said the Galleria area of Houston.

That said, I think the built-out Seaport will be more walkable than downtown Houston given the density of residential and lack of parking lots.

Maybe. Certainly being in Boston is much nicer (IMO!) in many ways.

But I do give Houston credit for running one of the best new light rail systems in the country, doing it cheaply, efficiently, and effectively. And they're expanding, adding two new branches. And since Houston land use laws are more malleable than our crusty old NIMBY-encumbered zoning regime, they have a lot of potential to redevelop all those parking lots in a friendly way. Also the consistent 350' x 350' block size is a real boon for anything that happens in the future.

But it's still Houston ;)

I do think we could learn a thing or two from them. Like how to build and operate modern light rail that passes through a busy urban area. And to do it in such forbidding political terrain! The Silver Lie has no excuse.

The newer parts of the Seaport desperately need more small streets to break up the blocks, just like the older section of Fort Point has.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yea, I'd love to see that...and I'd love to see the Silver Line go rail around both the Seaport and South End. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be likely at this time though.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Well, really it doesn't matter whether it's rubber or rail. The Silver Line could still use the same techniques that make MetroRail so effective: proof of payment, all-door boarding, signal priority, dedicated lanes, mostly straight and direct routing.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

That's true too. I definitely would like to see the all-door boarding become I thing. I remember being annoyed as hell trying to get on the Green Line during the winter out at Packard's Corner and having to wait as everyone pays their fare (though obviously a lot of people skipped paying).
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

It's always been planned to be able to sink tracks in the Transitway and run both BRT and LRT through it. They should have started the planning process for hooking up the Green Line last decade at the earliest, but of course that didn't happen. Green Line will be the best way to effectively hook up the Seaport to the rail system, and it's not even on DOT's/MBTA's radar.

Well, Silver Line Phase III doing a big fat belly-flop on feasibility is going to force some self-reflection on the modal alternatives whether they like it or not. Just because they stuck their heads in the sand after the project cancellation doesn't mean the looming crisis is going to infinitely delay another round of conceptual studies (shovels in ground...that's a different matter).


The easiest way this'll work is:
-- A rail-only connector tunnel merging into the Transitway where the non-revenue bus loop currently makes a sharp turn. On SL III the thru connection would've turned down Essex St. while the current dead-end loop stayed under Summer on the East St. block. So you'd be recycling the Surface Rd.-Summer St. SL Phase III alignment. Those 2 blocks were clean-roomed during the Big Dig and subsequent building construction, so feasibility there isn't in much doubt. It's Chinatown Park and points west where the last plan completely fell apart.

-- Rails in pavement. Where the current bus turnouts exist at the stations, probably also a set of matching trolley turnouts. Redundancy for both modes to pass disabled vehicles.

-- Trolleys take over the overhead wire (same voltage as the Green Line). Wire just needs to be re-hung with pantograph-compatible clips instead of trolley pole clips.

-- Probably won't have both share the wire, which is technically feasible but kind of a maintenance-intensive hack not needed anymore the way battery-hybrid buses are fast-evolving. Next-gen SL vehicles will have long beforehand ditched the Frankenstein trackless trolley-stitched-to-diesel engine build with unwieldy semi-duplicate systems. In favor of a much simpler "Prius bus" setup where the battery and engine trade off on the fly in a less complex unified system, and E mode is possible in small bursts on the surface too like pulling into bus stops. This way the on-wire travel in the tunnel no longer is the propulsion source but just a linear battery charger. Do that and when the trolleys eventually come the wire's no longer mandatory for buses. They can charge the battery on the surface in diesel mode, switch strictly to battery power in the tunnel, and pause on the wires in the bus-only loop to re-juice the battery for the outbound trip. Or...perhaps replace the whole trolley pole setup entirely and have the buses pause over metal induction-charge plates in the pavement as they pass through the loop.

-- Trolleys loop at Silver Line Way with a very small Lechmere-esque storage yard. Buses loop at South Station. Overlap is only at the 3 stops in the middle. Platform heights are already at what they'd be for Green, and platforms are already long enough for a bus and trolley to simultaneously load.

-- Both would operate on the same traffic light-style wayside signal system. If the Green Line gets some sort of future CBTC or automated signal system, the co-mingling would just be a switch back to wayside rules and human control like the B/C/E surface routes will always be human control obeying traffic signals.


It's not conceptually difficult at all once you're in the Transitway. That part's very easy to rig up and would probably result in zero disruption to SL service if the LRT modifications were confined to overnights and weekends. You just have a nice little megaproject ahead of you to square digging that LRT tunnel connection to the Green Line and finishing the job the bigger BRT tunnel (and possibly the whole Essex St. routing between Tremont St. to Surface Rd. itself) was too infeasible to finish.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

^ I still think that a green line connection via Essex Street, going under Boylston Station and merging with the westbound side of the GL in the old portal area along Bolyston Street (between Charles Street South and Arlington) is well worth the investment.

We need to get out of the mode of thinking about cost per mile (it would be a very expensive tunnel and station interface at Boylston), but instead think about cost for functionality.

GL branch from West to Seaport, without using the central subway tunnel -- more capacity across town.

New GL to RL connection at South Station -- divert South bound RL Riders out of Park Street transfers.

Real LRT service to Seaport, connected to some of the burbs.

GL, GL transfer at Boylston is not very different that B,C,D,E transfers people make at Park

A very worthwhile project, and a really concentrated construction impact zone (a pain, yes, but functionally enormous).
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

^ I still think that a green line connection via Essex Street, going under Boylston Station and merging with the westbound side of the GL in the old portal area along Bolyston Street (between Charles Street South and Arlington) is well worth the investment.

We need to get out of the mode of thinking about cost per mile (it would be a very expensive tunnel and station interface at Boylston), but instead think about cost for functionality.

GL branch from West to Seaport, without using the central subway tunnel -- more capacity across town.

New GL to RL connection at South Station -- divert South bound RL Riders out of Park Street transfers.

Real LRT service to Seaport, connected to some of the burbs.

GL, GL transfer at Boylston is not very different that B,C,D,E transfers people make at Park

A very worthwhile project, and a really concentrated construction impact zone (a pain, yes, but functionally enormous).

See here for a description why that's structurally impossible: http://www.archboston.org/community/showthread.php?t=3664&page=122.


In short, it's not Essex...it's how you get into Boylston. Silver Line Phase III died more because of what destruction it would wreak underneath the Common carving out a Boylston Under than for what surprises lurked under Essex. A trolley hook-in can't punch through the wall at-grade without destroying Central Subway service, so the only tie-in is an at-minimum 1-block-south jog around the block. And then as you narrow down the ham-fistedness of that insertion point and fact that it's not so easy to do the Orange transfer station there...you start reaching a block further and a block further.

Until you're at Marginal St., hooking into the tail end of the abandoned trolley tunnel, and doing an offset Tufts Green Line station connected inside fare control with a walkway to the Orange concourse and free transfer. You can play with it yourself on a map and watch the least-impactful routings for equal functionality start to converge there. That is the bang-for-buck routing with the fewest compromises on speed/throughput and transfer options. Because arrow-straight was never a problem with Essex...it was a problem with can't-get-there-from-here at Boylston station and/or tearing up the Boston Common burial grounds.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

See here for a description why that's structurally impossible: http://www.archboston.org/community/showthread.php?t=3664&page=122.


In short, it's not Essex...it's how you get into Boylston. Silver Line Phase III died more because of what destruction it would wreak underneath the Common carving out a Boylston Under than for what surprises lurked under Essex. A trolley hook-in can't punch through the wall at-grade without destroying Central Subway service, so the only tie-in is an at-minimum 1-block-south jog around the block. And then as you narrow down the ham-fistedness of that insertion point and fact that it's not so easy to do the Orange transfer station there...you start reaching a block further and a block further.

Until you're at Marginal St., hooking into the tail end of the abandoned trolley tunnel, and doing an offset Tufts Green Line station connected inside fare control with a walkway to the Orange concourse and free transfer. You can play with it yourself on a map and watch the least-impactful routings for equal functionality start to converge there. That is the bang-for-buck routing with the fewest compromises on speed/throughput and transfer options. Because arrow-straight was never a problem with Essex...it was a problem with can't-get-there-from-here at Boylston station and/or tearing up the Boston Common burial grounds.

F-Line, you are missing the point of my concept.

You do not clusterfuck under the Common. You do not merge with the Tremont street tunnel. You do not turn around at Boylston.

You go straight under Boylston, and merge with the Boylston Street tunnel Outbound West, Inbound to Seaport only in the wide, underutilized former portal space between Charles Street South and Arlington Street.

Someplace in the route you also create a deep connection station, but you find the most benign place to do that and punch up access to Boylston and Chinatown (maybe). Perhaps with long underground pedestrian tunnels -- too bad if the connection is a bit of a walk. Ever been to London or Paris? Then you get my drift.

Key point, get rid of trying to connect to the Tremont Street tunnel -- that is a transfer at Boylston. Merge with the Westbound Boylston Street tunnel where there is plenty of space between the inbound and outbound lines to bring two more lines up to current level (it was a portal, there is enough running room to bring a one level merge up)!

We are all stuck in a mindset that the Green Line has to go through Park, because it always has. But no, instead this the "Teal branch" -- Western Surface lines to Seaport. No Park!
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

F-Line, you are missing the point of my concept.

You do not clusterfuck under the Common. You do not merge with the Tremont street tunnel. You do not turn around at Boylston.

You go straight under Boylston, and merge with the Boylston Street tunnel Outbound West, Inbound to Seaport only in the wide, underutilized former portal space between Charles Street South and Arlington Street.

Someplace in the route you also create a deep connection station, but you find the most benign place to do that and punch up access to Boylston and Chinatown (maybe). Perhaps with long underground pedestrian tunnels -- too bad if the connection is a bit of a walk. Ever been to London or Paris? Then you get my drift.

Key point, get rid of trying to connect to the Tremont Street tunnel -- that is a transfer at Boylston. Merge with the Westbound Boylston Street tunnel where there is plenty of space between the inbound and outbound lines to bring two more lines up to current level (it was a portal, there is enough running room to bring a one level merge up)!

No, you can't 'merge' there without tearing the shit out of sensitive areas of the Common. The Green Line tunnel along Boylston St. can't be underpinned. Any lower-level tunnel heading towards Arlington St. has no place to go except offset to the side under the Common where it tears up the burial grounds. They did that whole engineering study with SL III. No double-decker tunnel feasible on the Tremont-Charles Ext. block. At all.

You can't reach the "wide underutilized space" without digging up the Common. They proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that's physically and financially impossible.


And that also calls into question...why would you prefer merging WEST to Arlington/Copley/Kenmore instead of east to Park/GC/North Station at the transfer points? The downtown transfer stops are where it performs its entire load-balancing function bailing out the Red Line and the clogs at Park and DTX. Not Kenmore. That's contrary to the whole point of building it.
 

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