Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

F-Line to Dudley said:
No, you can't 'merge' there without tearing the shit out of sensitive areas of the Common. The Green Line tunnel along Boylston St. can't be underpinned. Any lower-level tunnel heading towards Arlington St. has no place to go except offset to the side under the Common where it tears up the burial grounds. They did that whole engineering study with SL III. No double-decker tunnel feasible on the Tremont-Charles Ext. block. At all.

You can't reach the "wide underutilized space" without digging up the Common. They proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that's physically and financially impossible.


And that also calls into question...why would you prefer merging WEST to Arlington/Copley/Kenmore instead of east to Park/GC/North Station at the transfer points? The downtown transfer stops are where it performs its entire load-balancing function bailing out the Red Line and the clogs at Park and DTX. Not Kenmore. That's contrary to the whole point of building it.
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F-Line, I will choose to disagree with you.

Any tunnel, virtually anywhere on the planet can be underpinned. We have been doing that for centuries. It is a matter of money, not engineering.

Boston just doesn't have the balls to do real civil engineering.

Also, you create west to Red connection at South Station -- that is what offloads the downtown connections, certainly for south bound service, and perhaps even some north.

That little stretch of big money dig is a quadruple connection Green-Green; Green-Orange, Green-Red, Green-Silver. No place else you can get anywhere close to that bang for your buck.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

JeffDowntown said:
F-Line, I will choose to disagree with you.

Any tunnel, virtually anywhere on the planet can be underpinned. We have been doing that for centuries. It is a matter of money, not engineering.

Boston just doesn't have the balls to do real civil engineering.
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The REAL price tag for SL Phase III says otherwise. They were staring at $4B and rising because of the impacts here.

You can believe what you want to believe against a mountain of evidence to the countrary, but this was documented by real civil engineers.

Also, you create west to Red connection at South Station -- that is what offloads the downtown connections, certainly for south bound service, and perhaps even some north.
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No, it doesn't. Because north slams Red more than west does. It doesn't help the Park or DTX transfers enough, and fluidity through Park St. from lower dwells and less need to transfer is what preserves future increases for the western branches.

Again...this was studied. You can believe what you want to believe, but you're arguing against years and years of well-tabulated and scrutinized demand numbers. You need to substantiate that position with more than just intensity of own belief.

That little stretch of big money dig is a quadruple connection Green-Green; Green-Orange, Green-Red, Green-Silver. No place else you can get anywhere close to that bang for your buck.
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East-originating is:
Lechmere: Green branch transfers, future Urban Ring
North Station: Green-Orange-Commuter Rail/Amtrak
Haymarket: Green-Orange
GC: Green-Blue
Park: Green-Red-secondary Orange-Green branch transfers
Boylston: Green branch transfers
Tufts: Green-Orange-SL Washington or LRT branch transfer
SS: Green-Red-Silver-Commuter Rail/Amtrak

There's no northside commuter rail and no Blue from a west origin. That's 63,000 weekday Blue riders and 28,000 northside commuter rail riders shut out from a one-seat and having to make the same Park or DTX transfers as before or running through the most congested gut of the Orange Line to reach Tufts. It does nothing to abate the downtown congestion on Red and Orange that is where the system is collapsing. Cambridge is growing too much, Northpoint/Assembly is growing too much, Somerville is growing too much (yes...you have a congestion problem if GLX is the one that has to transfer).

Again...this was quantified to the nines. Facts-and-figures substantiation is required for counterpoints. This isn't my own opinion; the demand has long ago spoken.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

What happens if you terminate an Essex subway at Boylston/Chinatown Under instead of trying to join the Boylston Subway? You get Green to Seaport in one transfer at Boylston. You get Orange to Seaport at Chinatown. You get Red to Seaport via rail instead of bus. You get Seaport to Theater district in one seat. Actually you get Seaport to everywhere but Eastie in 2 seats and you can make up for Eastie with a ferry.

You miss the chance to unload most Red-Green transfers from Park, though you might snag a few Arlington bound riders who would be willing to walk from Boylston if it means transferring at SS instead of Park. It misses the biggest hits for load-sharing for all non-Seaport destination, but it moves almost every Seaport bound transfer out of the big 4.

Most importantly, it avoids the "impossible" Bolyston block. I suppose it requires an independent yard out in Southie somewhere. Is that a non-starter?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
What happens if you terminate an Essex subway at Boylston/Chinatown Under instead of trying to join the Boylston Subway? You get Green to Seaport in one transfer at Boylston. You get Orange to Seaport at Chinatown. You get Red to Seaport via rail instead of bus. You get Seaport to Theater district in one seat. Actually you get Seaport to everywhere but Eastie in 2 seats and you can make up for Eastie with a ferry.

You miss the chance to unload most Red-Green transfers from Park, though you might snag a few Arlington bound riders who would be willing to walk from Boylston if it means transferring at SS instead of Park. It misses the biggest hits for load-sharing for all non-Seaport destination, but it moves almost every Seaport bound transfer out of the big 4.

Most importantly, it avoids the "impossible" Bolyston block. I suppose it requires an independent yard out in Southie somewhere. Is that a non-starter?
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Wait, is that just SL Phase 3?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
What happens if you terminate an Essex subway at Boylston/Chinatown Under instead of trying to join the Boylston Subway? You get Green to Seaport in one transfer at Boylston. You get Orange to Seaport at Chinatown. You get Red to Seaport via rail instead of bus. You get Seaport to Theater district in one seat. Actually you get Seaport to everywhere but Eastie in 2 seats and you can make up for Eastie with a ferry.

You miss the chance to unload most Red-Green transfers from Park, though you might snag a few Arlington bound riders who would be willing to walk from Boylston if it means transferring at SS instead of Park. It misses the biggest hits for load-sharing for all non-Seaport destination, but it moves almost every Seaport bound transfer out of the big 4.

Most importantly, it avoids the "impossible" Bolyston block. I suppose it requires an independent yard out in Southie somewhere. Is that a non-starter?
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I can't imagine the benefit of doing that vs. the Marginal routing, especially since constructability under Essex itself won't be any less of a problem. Even if you forgot about the Huntington/Back Bay part of the project, you could still through-route from Medford and Union to the Seaport, linking North and South Stations with a single seat. Why would you not want to do that?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Equilibria said:
I can't imagine the benefit of doing that vs. the Marginal routing, especially since constructability under Essex itself won't be any less of a problem. Even if you forgot about the Huntington/Back Bay part of the project, you could still through-route from Medford and Union to the Seaport, linking North and South Stations with a single seat. Why would you not want to do that?
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That's an understated benefit of the Tufts Med/Marginal routing. You get a RT N-S Link.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Equilibria said:
I can't imagine the benefit of doing that vs. the Marginal routing, especially since constructability under Essex itself won't be any less of a problem. Even if you forgot about the Huntington/Back Bay part of the project, you could still through-route from Medford and Union to the Seaport, linking North and South Stations with a single seat. Why would you not want to do that?
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There is a lot of good with the discombobulated route from hell, but it leaves a lot to be desired. I had not considered the N/S one-seat. That is pretty attractive.

But, to make a case for an Essex Stub:

To start Essex is 1/5 the distance with no intermediate stops (or maybe one at most). That is serious trip time reduction.

Also it can be done on all buses rather than having to put rail in the Tway.

Through running GLX does get Blue a one transfer connection to Seaport, but it will still be at GC.

Where does orange get its connection? Tufts? I guess that is ok, but that is a stop. Then another stop at the Ink Block probably? And another around Chinatown Park? The only thing more ridiculous than putting in all those stops in not putting them in.

So you gave GLX riders a one seat to the Seaport but threw 10+ extra minutes of travel time on for them and everyone else. If you can manage even 10 minute headways on the Essex Stub you'll give everyone better travel times, including GLX.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
There is a lot of good with the discombobulated route from hell, but it leaves a lot to be desired. I had not considered the N/S one-seat. That is pretty attractive.

But, to make a case for an Essex Stub:

To start Essex is 1/5 the distance with no intermediate stops (or maybe one at most). That is serious trip time reduction.

Also it can be done on all buses rather than having to put rail in the Tway.

Through running GLX does get Blue a one transfer connection to Seaport, but it will still be at GC.

Where does orange get its connection? Tufts? I guess that is ok, but that is a stop. Then another stop at the Ink Block probably? And another around Chinatown Park? The only thing more ridiculous than putting in all those stops in not putting them in.

So you gave GLX riders a one seat to the Seaport but threw 10+ extra minutes of travel time on for them and everyone else. If you can manage even 10 minute headways on the Essex Stub you'll give everyone better travel times, including GLX.
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Go take a look in the crazy transit pitches thread. The same conversation is happening there, and I just posted a bunch of graphics.

In short though, you'd only have one stop between South Station and Boylston at Tufts/Bay Village. No need for more, and it wouldn't be going anywhere near the ink block on the other side of the pike.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
There is a lot of good with the discombobulated route from hell, but it leaves a lot to be desired. I had not considered the N/S one-seat. That is pretty attractive.

But, to make a case for an Essex Stub:

To start Essex is 1/5 the distance with no intermediate stops (or maybe one at most). That is serious trip time reduction.

Also it can be done on all buses rather than having to put rail in the Tway.

Through running GLX does get Blue a one transfer connection to Seaport, but it will still be at GC.

Where does orange get its connection? Tufts? I guess that is ok, but that is a stop. Then another stop at the Ink Block probably? And another around Chinatown Park? The only thing more ridiculous than putting in all those stops in not putting them in.

So you gave GLX riders a one seat to the Seaport but threw 10+ extra minutes of travel time on for them and everyone else. If you can manage even 10 minute headways on the Essex Stub you'll give everyone better travel times, including GLX.
Click to expand...

The problem with a Chinatown stub is that you can't continue it from there when you want to finish the job. On BRT it's already been torpedoed by the problems until the Common. On LRT in order to interface with Boylston at all you have to detour around the block and either punch into the tunnel from Beach St. and Lagrange (as hard or harder than Essex), from Kneeland and Stuart (less hard than Essex or Beach), or...Marginal (considerably less-hard than Essex, Beach, or Lagrange and requires no destruction of any part of the old trolley tunnel). Orange occupies Washington St.'s innards so that block is no-go for making the turn. And there's no point in building a Chinatown transfer only to have to abandon it a few years later when you figure out the rest.


The furthest you can tunnel on an alignment common to all modes and all trajectories is 2 blocks down Essex from Atlantic to Chinatown Park, safely clearing the Dewey Sq. I-93 tunnel. It's from there you have to study all the alignments and find something that works. But there's no station anywhere near Chinatown Park except...South Station...so it's useless to build that as a dead-end Phase I.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Has anyone noticed the dancing lights on Marina Park Drive?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

This all just blends together for me



 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

That's hawt.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

from South bay and today URL]
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

That angle makes the Aloft Hotel look like a refugee from the Soviet Bloc.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

In some of those pics I couldn't even imagine it was Boston,the skyline sucks on the waterfront too boring/ flat!
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yesterday, there was minor excitement in the Seaport when someone called the fire department claiming he was stuck in a duct under Sam's restaurant. (Turned out to be a hoax - guy was apparently actually calling from an apartment in Charlestown).

I was leaving District Hall so went over to watch the activity. Lots of fire trucks & EMS personnel, and a lot of TV guys since the Tsarnaev trial is going on next door at the courthouse.

Some guy from Fan Pier was freaking out about everyone being on the sidewalk - shooing them away. I didn't hear what he was saying but it seemed clear to me he was saying the sidewalks around Fan Pier were private property - all of them - not just a strip along the inside but from curb inward.

Anyone know the deal? Are the streets down there private ways?

The Harborwalk goes along the water and that's public property, of course, but not sure about the rest. No signs say private property.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

from Logan whats the white building? on the right?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The white building is the Pier 4 apartment tower.
 
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