Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[JANAM]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Oh good, I was wondering when we would get a resource wasting tower that twists because of fashion trends. That will make us cooler ...right ... right?

cca

Just curious, how is this more 'resource wasting' than say 121 Seaport, are you referring to the additional glazing required for the twisting section?

 

[odurandina]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

^^Everything Stick said + the State wouldn't let Cronin to build the dock out a few feet to get the exact width of the frontage back up to 'Harborwalk spec'–which it misses by a few feet.

i wonder if the State already regrets this decision.

 

[akmags]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Doesn't the harbor walk collectively end at the World Trade Center anyways, right after the 150 parcel?

 

[DZH22]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Doesn't the harbor walk collectively end at the World Trade Center anyways, right after the 150 parcel?

The Harbor Walk goes at least until UMass Boston's JFK Library. I have never gone beyond that but it's technically part of it.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

It goes all the way around umass to savin hill cove then links up with morrissey blvd.

 

[jl326]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Meddle is right. The signage on these parks IS uninviting and makes it quite clear that you are not on public property. This is a classic example of the insidious ways that power is concentrated and then cloaked in pretty things. It's a very slippery slope and while nobody would argue that it doesn't look nicer than a parking lot, it is incumbent on all of us to remember that public lands are for everyone and despite the risk of tragedy-of-the-commons scenarios where homeless people sleep on benches and heroin addicts shoot up on public property, the power to exclude and kick people off private property is a very terrible power indeed... and I, and I hope all of you as well, would take public property shared in common by and for all people over corporate, well-maintained but subtly restricted private pseudo-parks any day.

Didn't you recently just reminisce about a nice "secluded patch of green space" to the right of the former Lady of Good Voyage site on this thread?

I understand where your concern is coming from re: private vs. public spaces, but I really don't think it is fair to apply that to the Seaport. You want to see private closed-off (gated!) outdoor spaces? Go check out (if you don't get kicked out by security) the outdoor pool and private lawn area by the Harbor Towers. Completely closed off to the public save for the boardwalk right up to the water's edge. However, public folk like you and I are also more than welcome to walk along the adjacent garage and by the 7-Eleven, where we'll be greeted and welcomed by the regulars, the pan handlers and homeless squatters just outside.

Compare that to Fan Pier, where green space is available, where men and women regularly jog through or stay for extended periods without being harassed by pan handlers or by security. Again, consider these two as just one example. Both areas are being maintained and paid for by residents. One of these two are accessible to the public. Ironically, only one of these two seem to be getting any hate from some people here, the Globe, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a safe and attractive space that is well-maintained. I think it's far too easy to criticize as an observer from far away.

 

[odurandina]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

^^not to mention, there's going to be so many nice people using the green spaces in the Seaport, that every bit of land that's not a building is going to blend in and be treated/utilized as public space... if anyone thinks the activists and bleeding hearts (violins) in the media will allow conditions to devolve into something like what exists in the Charles River Park residences.... breathe; it's never going to happen.

 

[bigpicture7]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

In all seriousness:

If you have not been to the newly developed areas of fan pier/the seaport on a sunny weekend day, please go check it out before you criticize. You need to see the people engaging with the spaces before you criticize. I was initially in disbelief myself - diverse crowds of all ages, some pushing baby strollers, some with young kids in tow, some tossing a frisbee - there's no way they all came from inside 22 Liberty. I honestly had to wonder: how do these people even know this is here?

Well, somehow they do. And they use it as a park. Simple as that.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

^ The Seaport has been lively even before 1 seaport square. Its even more lively now definitely and its much closer to a downtown now, but I have yet to see the area as a dead zone since back when it was only 1MPD, and still surprisingly there were some people around.

 

[FK4]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Didn't you recently just reminisce about a nice "secluded patch of green space" to the right of the former Lady of Good Voyage site on this thread?

I understand where your concern is coming from re: private vs. public spaces, but I really don't think it is fair to apply that to the Seaport. You want to see private closed-off (gated!) outdoor spaces? Go check out (if you don't get kicked out by security) the outdoor pool and private lawn area by the Harbor Towers. Completely closed off to the public save for the boardwalk right up to the water's edge. However, public folk like you and I are also more than welcome to walk along the adjacent garage and by the 7-Eleven, where we'll be greeted and welcomed by the regulars, the pan handlers and homeless squatters just outside.

Compare that to Fan Pier, where green space is available, where men and women regularly jog through or stay for extended periods without being harassed by pan handlers or by security. Again, consider these two as just one example. Both areas are being maintained and paid for by residents. One of these two are accessible to the public. Ironically, only one of these two seem to be getting any hate from some people here, the Globe, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a safe and attractive space that is well-maintained. I think it's far too easy to criticize as an observer from far away.

My views are consistent.

The city literally has given away the seaport to get these developments. Those development-happy folks can argue tilll they're blue in the face about how thee developments never would've happened without all the tax cuts and incentives. I disagree. And given that so little of the harbor is public - truly public, as in something wider than a little strip or ROW - I am 100% with the CLF that we got robbed of what could have been public space. Symbols are important, and those little "no dog" signs say it all: "This ain't your land, and we can kick you off if we want to". Comparing this to a less subtle example is no excuse for doing it another way - in fact, it's almost more creepy how the privatization of public space has gotten so insidiously clever. Just like all those bollards in front of buildings are now cleverly designed so you don't notice that your public buildings have become militarized. Everything like this, these days, is done ever so nicely... scary and sad.

Edit - we aren't observers from far away, at least I'm not. Local/state tax dollars - that I pay into - supported all this, and I'm born in and remain a resident of the City of Boston.

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Whats the problem with bollards?

 

[bigpicture7]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

My views are consistent.

The city literally has given away the seaport to get these developments. Those development-happy folks can argue tilll they're blue in the face about how thee developments never would've happened without all the tax cuts and incentives. I disagree. And given that so little of the harbor is public - truly public, as in something wider than a little strip or ROW - I am 100% with the CLF that we got robbed of what could have been public space. Symbols are important, and those little "no dog" signs say it all: "This ain't your land, and we can kick you off if we want to". Comparing this to a less subtle example is no excuse for doing it another way - in fact, it's almost more creepy how the privatization of public space has gotten so insidiously clever. Just like all those bollards in front of buildings are now cleverly designed so you don't notice that your public buildings have become militarized. Everything like this, these days, is done ever so nicely... scary and sad.

Edit - we aren't observers from far away, at least I'm not. Local/state tax dollars - that I pay into - supported all this, and I'm born in and remain a resident of the City of Boston.

FK4, there's plenty of seaport left with no "no dog" signs. You're welcome to hang out here.

or, here.

or, here.

or, here.


Just be sure your tetanus shot is up to date, and you don't let the young ones play in the dirt.


Take a stroll and you will find ACRES of wasteland in the seaport, with skyline views.

Why do you think the people are proposing converting this drydock into a park?

There is so much wasteland in the seaport, most of us will die before any of it will be converted into anything.
I hate these pro/anti-capitalist arguments. The variable both sides ignore is TIME. Yes, if you wait long enough, something will change. Ask yourself what your values are...do you want your grandkids to come and go without any progress being made? If so, then peace to you.

 

[akmags]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

My views are consistent.

The city literally has given away the seaport to get these developments. Those development-happy folks can argue tilll they're blue in the face about how thee developments never would've happened without all the tax cuts and incentives. I disagree. And given that so little of the harbor is public - truly public, as in something wider than a little strip or ROW - I am 100% with the CLF that we got robbed of what could have been public space. Symbols are important, and those little "no dog" signs say it all: "This ain't your land, and we can kick you off if we want to". Comparing this to a less subtle example is no excuse for doing it another way - in fact, it's almost more creepy how the privatization of public space has gotten so insidiously clever. Just like all those bollards in front of buildings are now cleverly designed so you don't notice that your public buildings have become militarized. Everything like this, these days, is done ever so nicely... scary and sad.

To prove otherwise, I'll find the time to get over there tomorrow or Thursday's to snap some pics. The way these developments engage the waterfront is far from a ROW.

Also - if you don't like these "private" public open spaces, blame the city. I can think of examples as far back as Liberty Mutual where they are forcing developers to construct public open spaces on private parcels.

 

[odurandina]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

My views are consistent.

The city literally has given away the seaport to get these developments....

i believe Menino's bold moves might have started a small tidal wave that may have actually saved Boston. I love the Son of a Bitch for saving us from becoming the next Pittsburgh. ....Build baby build and force State legislators to make major improvements to the T.

Walsh '17.

 

[FK4]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

To prove otherwise, I'll find the time to get over there tomorrow or Thursday's to snap some pics. The way these developments engage the waterfront is far from a ROW.

Whats the problem with bollards?

OK, let me break it down here...
Most of the Harborwalk is a slim ROW in the urban part of Boston. That's what I'm referring to in that case. Columbus Park is the exception. Yes, these new parks are certainly nice: but I do not like that they aren't truly public. They are a sanitized, corporate version of a private park, and the subtlety of how well that last point is concealed is as lethally insidious as the soma of Brave New World. Foucault, and others, predicted all of this... the empowered interests, with technology at their side, devise ever-better ways of concealing the fact they control the power at the expense of the citizen/other/whatever. That's why those little signs saying "no dogs" do matter.

[Aside] And dominus, that's what I mean about the bollards: in a separate but very similar fashion, the government is becoming increasingly an entity that protects itself and its buildings "against attack"... the bollards, as a fortification, are now (like the BPL reno) so subtlely concealed we dont even know theyre there. Out of sight, out of mind. Is that actually such a good thing?

Also - if you don't like these "private" public open spaces, blame the city. I can think of examples as far back as Liberty Mutual where they are forcing developers to construct public open spaces on private parcels.

What I am saying is I would prefer to have had the city make this space a real public park, perhaps with some financial support from the developer to maintain it to their desired standard. But as far as marketing waterfront housing with a park on the water, the ownership doesn't matter and these developments would have happened either way. Yes, I know it's more complicated than the city just taking land out of parcels, but it's possible, and the people decrying the loss of the waterfront (which has been going on for decades, not just now) are right on the money.

FK4, there's plenty of seaport left with no "no dog" signs. You're welcome to hang out here.

or, here.

or, here.

or, here.


Just be sure your tetanus shot is up to date, and you don't let the young ones play in the dirt.


Take a stroll and you will find ACRES of wasteland in the seaport, with skyline views.

Why do you think the people are proposing converting this drydock into a park?

There is so much wasteland in the seaport, most of us will die before any of it will be converted into anything.
I hate these pro/anti-capitalist arguments. The variable both sides ignore is TIME. Yes, if you wait long enough, something will change. Ask yourself what your values are...do you want your grandkids to come and go without any progress being made? If so, then peace to you.

Bigpicture, I'm well familiar with the undeveloped space that remains. That's a fraction of what once existed and we're just kicking the can down the road if we keep saying "next decade, we'll build a park".

Moreover, the argument always seems to get distorted into something all or nothing: you seem to be suggesting that had the city not given away the Seaport in exactly the way it did, no development at all would have happened. Obviously, that's not the case. I in no way support the piranha-esque ways our dear municipalities nickel and dime developers for all sorts of little crap. But, I also am not a huge fan of the degree to which massive tax breaks have been given and many good citizens have raised justified concerns about the deals given to certain projects to move forward. If you think that city and state government and the deals made within them is anything but opaque, well, think again. Anyway, there's a difference between flat out acquiescence and saying "it had to be this way or else nothing wouldve gotten built" and questioning some of, and parts of, the things that were done to get the Seaport built. Boston's profile is extremely favorable for developing totally vacant lots that have a subway bus AND two interstate highways, all right next to downtown. This area was ripe for development regardless.

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

[Aside] And dominus, that's what I mean about the bollards: in a separate but very similar fashion, the government is becoming increasingly an entity that protects itself and its buildings "against attack"... the bollards, as a fortification, are now (like the BPL reno) so subtlely concealed we dont even know theyre there. Out of sight, out of mind. Is that actually such a good thing?

Yes. And please, enlighten me why you chose to put scare quotes around "against attack." Do you think there's an insidious reason behind making areas more pedestrian friendly, safe, and attractive, all at the same time?

 

[FK4]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yes. And please, enlighten me why you chose to put scare quotes around "against attack." Do you think there's an insidious reason behind making areas more pedestrian friendly, safe, and attractive, all at the same time?

Yes, but not going to derail this and torture everyone on here with a digression on the rise of a security state. Symbols are important, and I'd rather see things called for what they are. That's being done less and less. You want a death of blood and glory or something so sanitary you don't even know you're being executed?

Let the parks all become private and dotted with those little tiny "no dogs allowed" signs. Then, shrug your shoulders as homeless people are carted away so they don't bother us nice, middle class folks. And wait for what's next.

 

[jl326]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

My views are consistent.

The city literally has given away the seaport to get these developments. Those development-happy folks can argue tilll they're blue in the face about how thee developments never would've happened without all the tax cuts and incentives. I disagree. And given that so little of the harbor is public - truly public, as in something wider than a little strip or ROW - I am 100% with the CLF that we got robbed of what could have been public space. Symbols are important, and those little "no dog" signs say it all: "This ain't your land, and we can kick you off if we want to". Comparing this to a less subtle example is no excuse for doing it another way - in fact, it's almost more creepy how the privatization of public space has gotten so insidiously clever. Just like all those bollards in front of buildings are now cleverly designed so you don't notice that your public buildings have become militarized. Everything like this, these days, is done ever so nicely... scary and sad.

Edit - we aren't observers from far away, at least I'm not. Local/state tax dollars - that I pay into - supported all this, and I'm born in and remain a resident of the City of Boston.

We clearly disagree, which is fine, but I want to address your comments.
1. If the developments would have happened anyway without the need for any incentives, it would have already happened without incentives. The area was dead for years. If the anchor businesses in the area saw no benefit to moving to the Seaport, they would not have moved to the Seaport. It also comes off as if you believe the businesses, developers, and residents/owners personally stole from you and are living Scott free on the Seaport off of your hard earned tax dollars. Do you forget that the city is also generating property and income tax from those same people? I don't know just how much property tax residents are paying, but it'd be pretty easy to figure out and I'm going to guess that it is not unsubstantial.

2. Public space. Great, you wanted Boston to create a large and extended park on the waterfront. How much is maintenance and who is going to keep paying for it til the end of time? Businesses that aren't allowed to be there? Good luck with that. With the route the city took, it invested in businesses and developers, created some public areas that are not paid for by the city, and is generating tax revenues. There was zero appeal with the public space for years.

3. Symbols. Bollards surround the federal courthouse for a purpose. High profile cases are heard there. Boston Marathon tragedy case, anyone? At least the courthouse isn't gated, like the State House for example. "No Dogs Allowed" signs are not a rare site. They really aren't. No one broke the mold by having these signs there. If you think these signs symbolize something more derogatory than what they literally say, I would believe that you already had a very negative bias against the development and/or people of the area in the first place and these signs simply trigger you. Also, since you have noticed these signs, then success, the signs have served their purpose. There's a greater chance dog owners notice too. Take a look at articles online about how it had (has?) been difficult for the Arboretum to enforce leash restrictions. Among other things, the signage has been relatively poor. Also, just to be perfectly clear, seeing dogs walking with their owners along the harbor walk and on Fan Pier is not uncommon.

Your tax dollars and my tax dollars cleaned up the harbor that we ourselves and other generations polluted. The current Seaport developers didn't do that. Our tax dollars also gave incentives for development, an income generating endeavor, vs a space that would have just been wasted and with no appeal.

Whew.. That turned out much longer than anticipated. Please excuse any poor writing. It is late and I have insomnia.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Point A is so obvious when you see it spelt out that its ridiculous lol. So true.

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yes, but not going to derail this and torture everyone on here with a digression on the rise of a security state. Symbols are important, and I'd rather see things called for what they are. That's being done less and less. You want a death of blood and glory or something so sanitary you don't even know you're being executed?

Let the parks all become private and dotted with those little tiny "no dogs allowed" signs. Then, shrug your shoulders as homeless people are carted away so they don't bother us nice, middle class folks. And wait for what's next.

First, bollards are not indicative of the rise of a security state. Ubiquitous security cameras would be. Bollards are totally passive, and serve plenty of non-security purposes.

Second, there's a difference between having some private parks and privatizing all parks, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there are plenty of public spaces with no dogs allowed signs. Many public beaches come to mind.

Third, just what do you think is next?