Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport


I also read that story this evening. I honestly wonder if he and I are thinking about the same Boston Harbor/Waterfront. The flow and connectivity of the Harborwalk, its programmable spaces, and incoming park spaces coming in the next year or two are superior to how things use to be. Even in front of 22 Liberty with its $3,000/sq. ft. condominiums, the Harborwalk space is open to the public 24/7, features new tables and chairs, a fire pit, a waterfall, a beautiful lawn to sunbathe on. Luxury development and spots for the public to enjoy the harbor are not mutually exclusive.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Where was Shelley when all the seaport scheming was going on concerning fan pier and Fallon developments, concerning vertex tax breaks? Menino and the past BRA gave all the prime real estate away without ever building a real transit infrastructure.

The article is really based on trying to stop harbor garbage development which from moving forward is pure lunacy to believe that this garage is a better option than the developer's proposal. The public never shared the waterfront in that area so what the fuck is CLF talking about concerning harbor garage and protecting the city treasures?

The claim that Harbor garage or the area is a city treasure is insane? That area of the greenway is monopolized by the harbor tower residents, their pool area, the garage's footprint which blocks 95% of the access to the waterfront which demoralizes the area from the public.

This group is disingenuous since they are claiming their is no more open space for the public to enjoy but plan on suing developers that own preexsisting above concrete blocks that add no value to the public and already block 95% of the footprint to the waterfront.

CLF and the Baar foundation should be investigated for misappropriation of funds that should be taxable to the public which is creating bad policies along with holding back economic progress for the city and the overall best interests of the public.

My tax rate is almost 40% state and federal govt. these billionaires pay nothing and use their money for all personal agendas. This is a disgrace
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

just posted a long reply to the Globe article. The whole point of Shelley that the city is restricting access is just so bogus. This is not a access issue, but an architecture issue. No one in their right mind can say access to the Harbor has declined in the past decade. A simple traffic head count will put that issue to bed immediately. If the CLF reframed this discussion into a design conversation, maybe it can get some more public support, but then again, they wouldn't have the "law" to hide behind.. People like Vivian Li's organization have had a similar mission, but they chose to collaborate with the city. Shelley's obstructionist, "see you in court", approach is the real threat to our access to the waterfront. His organization should be sued for that....
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Shelley's Globe rant was targeted at Whiskey Priest.

His argument is basically:

1.) Federal, state, and local taxpayers spent many billions cleaning up Boston Harbor.
2.) Developments along the harbor's edge are only occurring because of the cleanup.
3.) There was little access to the harbor before, but there was also little public interest in accessing it. [I think the point can be debated there was actually significant public access in 1972, when the Clean Water Act was enacted.]
4.) There is now more proximate public access to much of the harbor, up to the water's edge.
5.) However, the public is often confused about this access because the line between public property, publicly-accessible property, and private, non-public property is often blurred.
6.) To the extent that the public believes it doesn't have access, that is to the benefit of the private, water-side property owners (who would prefer the public stay away).
7.) And to the extent that a property-owner -- here's looking at you Cronin -- incorporates the public access into the commercial/residential aspects of the private property, that further confuses the public.
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Point #7 is similar to criticisms of Rifleman's favorite Donald's early proposals, when a covered atrium lined with shops in the center of his property was categorized as "open space".

How much public access to the harbor will there be when most of the East Boston piers become residential?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Shelley's Globe rant was targeted at Whiskey Priest.

His argument is basically:

1.) Federal, state, and local taxpayers spent many billions cleaning up Boston Harbor.
2.) Developments along the harbor's edge are only occurring because of the cleanup.
3.) There was little access to the harbor before, but there was also little public interest in accessing it. [I think the point can be debated there was actually significant public access in 1972, when the Clean Water Act was enacted.]
4.) There is now more proximate public access to much of the harbor, up to the water's edge.
5.) However, the public is often confused about this access because the line between public property, publicly-accessible property, and private, non-public property is often blurred.
6.) To the extent that the public believes it doesn't have access, that is to the benefit of the private, water-side property owners (who would prefer the public stay away).
7.) And to the extent that a property-owner -- here's looking at you Cronin -- incorporates the public access into the commercial/residential aspects of the private property, that further confuses the public.
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Point #7 is similar to criticisms of Rifleman's favorite Donald's early proposals, when a covered atrium lined with shops in the center of his property was categorized as "open space".

How much public access to the harbor will there be when most of the East Boston piers become residential?



Point #7 - I think you underestimate the public, I doubt they will be confused over whether there is access to the water (as in the 150 proposal) or no access whatsoever (as is the case now and for the foreseeable future without this development). You can either walk, run, sit, play next to the water or you can't, not very confusing.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The "Harborwalk" branding, sinage, and wayfinding do a great deal to welcome the public to the harborwalk spaces, even when there's private property alongside the harborwalk.

Vivien Li got this, btw...and as others on here have mentioned, she was a voice of reason in this debate who could speak both sides' language. We miss her now more than ever.

Also, I'll add, the public/harbor-side space in front of 22 Liberty is a already resounding success in terms of the public taking full advantage / relaxing / enjoying the space...I'd encourage anyone in disbelief to go there on a sunny weekend day. You'll notice a diverse public romping about on that lawn.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The Globe posters only represent the a few/fringe element of wealthy Back Bay, Beacon Hill, Downtown, and North and West Enders.

The people at large are pretty supportive of Walsh and his development plan. Get ready for Walsh in a wash in November, followed by putting down the little nimby loons who may wish to organize a revolt.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The BRA, city and state officials have to promote smart economic development for Boston. Look at what the seaport explosion has gotten the city of Boston:
#1 Prime real estate given away to the corporations/developers by our elected representatives.
#2 seaport traffic at gridlock at this point (lack of understanding the importantance of efficient transit grid for a prime real estate area)
#3 NIMBY holding a developer hostage concerning harbor garage which right now offers no access to the waterfront. Now the BRA, city and state offficals have to recognize at this point the garage is very valuable so a developer will need incentive to knock this down.
(This is what is good for the public). Please stellarfun try to say the garage is a better option than the developer proposal? The longer the city gives the developer the hassle the more valuable the garage actually is on the greenway.
How is that good for the public to enjoy the waterfront?

There is a point that chap 91 is creating a bad precedent for the overall public concerning this specific preexsisting structure which blocks 95% of the access to the waterfront.

It is the BRA, city and state officials jobs to promote and invest in the best possible options for what is best for the public.

Shelley clearly won't even rationally talk about this. His quote see you in court is priceless. It seems he just wants to tie these developments with red tape.
A group of logical jury members would laugh at Shelley saying you really believe the garage is a better option than the developer proposals? That's the best interest of the public.
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Point #7 - I think you underestimate the public, I doubt they will be confused over whether there is access to the water (as in the 150 proposal) or no access whatsoever (as is the case now and for the foreseeable future without this development). You can either walk, run, sit, play next to the water or you can't, not very confusing.

I prefaced my summary by indicating this was a targeted rant by Shelley.

That aside, I am presently reviewing designs of a privately-owned, publicly-accessible, proposed park that may cost $300 a square foot or so to build. Maintenance and upkeep of this park will be quite expensive, the annual cost of which will be borne by the future condo owners who will have residences on the property. As it is, they will be rich enough to afford the annual condo fees for such, but this is an exception. There are already design issues about whether the general public will perceive this park as accessible to them, but that has to do with some rather unusual features of the site, flood prevention, and historic preservation.
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Nearly 10 years ago, the operating budget for Millennium Park was nearly $13 million, the city of Chicago funded about 60 percent. The Friends of the High Line are spending $12 million a year.
http://www.rff.org/files/sharepoint/WorkImages/Download/RFF-IB-14-01.pdf

What are the arrangements for the maintenance and upkeep of the Harborwalk, and who is paying?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

It's a false, romance novel painted over a false history about a place that never existed save for putting in a day of hard labor that put food on the table. It was rundown and seedy, full of unsavory characters. Nobody gave much thought to the area–much less went there.

Today it's a nice place with ample access that will continue to gain use as more people come, spaces are improved, and more docks and boats arrive.

So, the Globe gives this asswagon a stage to promote his angry rants and extremism–as if his point of view just has to be the way it is.

The people who commented about the Seaport and its use as a work in progress were spot on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LtHot2GQTc



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZqpweWv5_0
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

1.) Federal, state, and local taxpayers spent many billions cleaning up Boston Harbor.
2.) Developments along the harbor's edge are only occurring because of the cleanup.
3.) There was little access to the harbor before, but there was also little public interest in accessing it. [I think the point can be debated there was actually significant public access in 1972, when the Clean Water Act was enacted.]
4.) There is now more proximate public access to much of the harbor, up to the water's edge.
5.) However, the public is often confused about this access because the line between public property, publicly-accessible property, and private, non-public property is often blurred.
6.) To the extent that the public believes it doesn't have access, that is to the benefit of the private, water-side property owners (who would prefer the public stay away).
7.) And to the extent that a property-owner -- here's looking at you Cronin -- incorporates the public access into the commercial/residential aspects of the private property, that further confuses the public.

Point #7 - I think you underestimate the public, I doubt they will be confused over whether there is access to the water (as in the 150 proposal) or no access whatsoever (as is the case now and for the foreseeable future without this development). You can either walk, run, sit, play next to the water or you can't, not very confusing.

Actually I think the argument makes a lot of sense. Take for example Cronin's park behind 22 Liberty Drive. It's not really a park more than it is a terraced patio for his development with a couple seats and it has very uninviting signage that makes you think it's private, the "No Dogs Allowed" sign. It's very confusing who actually owns the rights to that park and when you're there you never quite feel like you belong and rather that someone from 22 Liberty is going to rush out and shoo you away for being unwashed riff-raff not meant to mingle with the 22 Liberty Elite.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

From what I can tell, the Harborwalk in the Seaport area is predominately built on private land, which the public can access.

Just based on the review of a proposed park that I mentioned upthread, here are some of the issues/implications of that:

> who pays for security?
> who pays for liability insurance to cover a member of the public being injured or dying while using the Harborwalk? E.g., an intoxicated member of the public falls into the harbor, drowns, and the estate then claims the barriers to prevent such were inadequate.
> how ADA compliant must the access be?
> may a Harborwalk property owner restrict times and use of the Harborwalk on their property?

I list some of the above because the park I am reviewing will likely have an elevator for ADA compliance, and the landscape architects are trying to contort a path to slow down speeding cyclists, and minimize pedestrian/cyclist collisions.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Actually I think the argument makes a lot of sense. Take for example Cronin's park behind 22 Liberty Drive. It's not really a park more than it is a terraced patio for his development with a couple seats and it has very uninviting signage that makes you think it's private, the "No Dogs Allowed" sign. It's very confusing who actually owns the rights to that park and when you're there you never quite feel like you belong and rather that someone from 22 Liberty is going to rush out and shoo you away for being unwashed riff-raff not meant to mingle with the 22 Liberty Elite.

I respectfully disagree. First of all, the 22 Liberty project was Fallon's not Cronin's, IIRC. I have visited this park/stretch of harborwalk at least 5 times since it opened. There is inviting harborwalk signage pointing pedestrians toward this area from multiple directions (e.g., near the courhouse, as well as on the greenspace on the opposite side of the Vertex complex). While I agree that the terraced portion of the lawn is a bit ambiguous as to whether the public is invited, the harborwalk itself is very broad along that stretch and is clearly public realm. Not to mention, it is lined with seating surfaces and benches (a continuation of the seating surfaces that begin on the courthouse side). This stretch of harborwalk has been nearly packed with the public on several of the occassions I visited...and the lawn's ambiguousness did not keep several people from playing frisbee and laying out on blankets reading. The reason I am not even concerned about how "public looking" the lawn is is because, to me, the very broad harbor walk w/ seating surfaces more than meets the minimum expectation of providing public access IMO. What more do you want from someone who has rights to their own property and has pumped millions of dollars into converting a desolate (former industrial wasteland) parking lot into something that is NOT A DESOLATE PARKINGLOT / WASTELAND.

Get some perspective people. Visit cities that are forever stuck in the abandoned industrial ruin state, then you'll appreciate the seaport's conversion.

Now, my rant aside, I am a HUGE supporter of the harborwalk concept and making the developers support / abide by public access. I DO NOT want Cronin to get off easy by shortchanging public realm around the Whiskey Priest development. But I also want those shithole bars gone and a harborwalk built there.

Similarly, I walked the stretch of Fort Point Chanel in front of the forthcoming GE site and am THRILLED that a company is going to be pumping money into turning that desolate stretch of channel into something walkable and special. Nitpick all you want about the tax break, but without public/private partnership, that stretch (of what is also being dubbed "harborwalk") would be a desolate wasteland for DECADE+ without investment for mutual gain being pumped in.

Meanwhile, I will NOT complain about 22 Liberty's all-things-considered huge success in creating a public realm.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Its good that people are out blasting that article. As I said before, too many lazy Glob reporters go for an easy story of brave NIMBY's fighting faceless corporations because you can basically copy the same things that have been written in the paper over the last 40 years. Just change the names, hit send, and you're off to the Cape for a long weekend.

But I've asked two things and haven't gotten a decent answer out of the Globe NIMBY's. 1) how is the harbor any less accessible than it was 30 years ago, which was the alleged point of the article in its title, and 2) if Shelley is so tenacious, why is the IMAX standing there blocking harbor views and access? Some idiot tried to tell me its in compliance because its open to the public (? - yes if you pay admission) and fits with maritime use because its part of the Aquarium (its a movie theatre). Well, I guess Chiaforo has his answer then. Charge people $25 bucks to enter his lobby and play moving likes Free Willy and The Little Mermaid on TV in the lounge area and he's totally in compliance! :D
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Does anybody know how much Cronin paid for this site? The Cronin group owns both buildings right.

There is a big difference between having a universal developmental guideline concerning WIDE OPEN SPACE development VS Preexisting Structure developments.

In the world of development in a complex city of Boston.
When a developer wants to build-out a site that is good for the overall public. Why doesn't the BRA, City & state setout guidelines for those specific developments on sites that are unique which would create a void in the overall universal guidelines especially for buildings like Cronin and above parking garages or other structures like City Hall (Possibly).
The problem is when the developers have no incentive to knock down these structures because they are worth more now than the risk they would need to take to build something better for the public on these locations.

This is pretty logical.

What is the purpose of the BRA if the Universal Guidelines determine all city development?
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Actually I think the argument makes a lot of sense. Take for example Cronin's park behind 22 Liberty Drive. It's not really a park more than it is a terraced patio for his development with a couple seats and it has very uninviting signage that makes you think it's private, the "No Dogs Allowed" sign. It's very confusing who actually owns the rights to that park and when you're there you never quite feel like you belong and rather that someone from 22 Liberty is going to rush out and shoo you away for being unwashed riff-raff not meant to mingle with the 22 Liberty Elite.

Uninviting signage?? Are you serious?! I am pretty sure that even sections of Boston Common and Public Garden, amongst the riff-raff and the homeless who occupy its maintained grounds, have signage that restricts dogs/pets from certain areas.

As others have mentioned, this is an example of something that was actually executed well. It is a publicly accessible green space on the harbor walk paid for and maintained by condo owners. It even has a nice area for toddlers. Whereas, previously, it was a "mud" parking lot that you had to pay to get into.

Which one is more uninviting?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Its scary to think about how difficult development will be in 15-20 years with the liberal mindset that dominates this state. Come on, they are trying to keep the park nice, clean and free of dog feces. How is that uninviting?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Its scary to think about how difficult development will be in 15-20 years with the liberal mindset that dominates this state. Come on, they are trying to keep the park nice, clean and free of dog feces. How is that uninviting?

Also when I walk through the Boston Common at times: I find it very uninviting seeing all the Drug Addicts, Homeless People all camped out like the Boston Common is there HOME.

Very depressing and Uninviting to bring your kids or animals around that type of activity.

I actually would rather the areas be un-inviting but knowing that anybody can actually use them by law.
 

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