Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[bakgwailo]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Seaport needs a couple of dive bars and a few cheap Chinese restaurants to give it some extra character. Gotta be a few people still alive from Whitey's old crew that can re-enact the Triple O's or the L Street Tavern before it went hipster. Whatever it is needs either the cider block windows or be in the basement with bars on the windows even if the neighborhood has little crime beyond the price of parking. Some of the Fort Point buildings would be perfect.

I disagree - Fort Point has Lucky's which is all I need. For the rest of the seaport, give it some years. Dive bars take decades to create, anything less is just cheap imitation.

 

[Coyote137]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I disagree - Fort Point has Lucky's which is all I need. For the rest of the seaport, give it some years. Dive bars take decades to create, anything less is just cheap imitation.

Regardless of the time span since they were created, they are caused by cheap rent/low land prices/etc. That's why they sprang up where and when they did. Prices in the Seaport right now are not conducive to the creation of a dive. If the Seaport ever takes a lengthy, downward turn, decades hence, perhaps one of the places there will be left to wither into a dump.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Theres a movie theater and a bowling alley at 1 seaport sq. The middle class will have no problem affording those and seeing that theres not a ton of options people will go there. Just scroll up, I see lots and lots of people in those pictures and this neighborhood isn't even complete.

 

[odurandina]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Plastic as fuck, tacky, crystalline, gritty, brutal, controversial, unapologetic, alienating, dense, urban, remarkable and effective.

This is your Seaport. And you will like it.

 

[falcon42]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

What are you talking about? How much time have you spent there? Seen a couple pictures?

 

[stefal]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Plastic as fuck, tacky, crystalline, gritty, brutal, controversial, unapologetic, alienating, dense, urban, remarkable and effective.

This is your Seaport. And you will like it.

Most of those words are not what I would use to describe the (amazing) pictures XEC posted not to long ago in this same thread (post 2814).

 

[odurandina]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Of course XEC's pictures are amazing! i wasn't posting about that! ...i posted a few words that loosely describe my interpretation of a disambiguation of how some people in Da Globe, on ArchBoston and myself opine about the Seaport (totally subjective).

People who generally like how it's being developed, aren't remiss to post things they like less about it–where other parts of Boston get nearly stunning reviews. The recent aerial renders make me wonder if the Seaport should have been planned for more green space. You know where the Globe posters will be on that....

The Seaport is definitely more controversial than other parts of Boston recently developed for higher density. i identify with the positive opinions about the Seaport, way more than the negatives. ...not only because i think the buildings are pretty good, but the future tax revenue blows the doors off whatever friendly deals were offered to developers on the launchpad (thank Christ the planners get it. if only Mass DOT could be so insightful). Do i love everything? i'm fairly close; probably about 3/4 of the way from like to love.

words i personally subscribe to from my short list;

tacky, crystalline, brutal (if only slightly), controversial, unapologetic, alienating (i'm unsure if people might be confused about if they're welcome in many of the Seaport's pedestrian spaces), dense, urban, remarkable and (incredibly) effective.

i just got back in town from the West Coast and Colorado and snapped a bunch of photos (mostly) of the New York Streets around dusk last evening with my lousy camera phone. The embarrassment of riches offered by the photo posters continues to leave me feeling embarrassed, unworthy and unclean (it's time to get a decent camera).

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

There are more than 60 restaurants in the Seaport (including cafes, etc.). The options for "middle class families" is bland but certainly there are options (Sal's, Tony C's, Jimmy Johns (lol)).

Scotty Van Voorhis (remember him) wrote once that the Seaport was going to eventually bring in around $60 million a year in new property taxes. That was before any of Seaport Square was approved. I started to do a quick back of the envelope estimate during the weekend but got bored of it. Very hard to estimate what the taxes are on newly-built buildings because they haven't been assessed yet. My guess is $20 million a year, thus far. Not a bad start but you can see that, even at full build-out, it's not as if the Seaport will make a big difference (nor, for that matter, will either Millennium Tower).

Yes, condos are a million or more, but there is currently just a dozen condo buildings completed in 02210, with only two in the "Seaport" proper (the rest being "Fort Point"); all the other projects are apartments. 50 Liberty will add another ~150 and then Pier 4 and the M parcels will come online.

There were just 68 condo sales in 02210 during 2016. There was 100 more in 2015 due to 22 Liberty closings. There's not a lot of real estate activity here, sales-wise.

As far as I know, no residential real estate developer received any tax breaks from the city or state. Joe Fallon might have got something from Menino back in 2013 but I'd have to check.

 

[jl326]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Seaport needs a couple of dive bars and a few cheap Chinese restaurants to give it some extra character. Gotta be a few people still alive from Whitey's old crew that can re-enact the Triple O's or the L Street Tavern before it went hipster. Whatever it is needs either the cider block windows or be in the basement with bars on the windows even if the neighborhood has little crime beyond the price of parking. Some of the Fort Point buildings would be perfect.

What kind of character do dive bars and cheap Chinese restaurants give actually? What about them actually makes an area desirable? Are you thinking of faux dive-looking bars or the true low brow grimy ones in tough neighborhoods? I can tell you that I certainly wouldn't want the latter in my neighborhood. Whiskey Priest and Atlantic Beer Garden are more than grimy enough for me.

 

[falcon42]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The inside of Whiskey is literally falling apart. Leaking overhead vents dripping on to you, floors are a disaster. They are just holding that thing up until they can take the wrecking ball to it.

 

[bigpicture7]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

What kind of character do dive bars and cheap Chinese restaurants give actually? What about them actually makes an area desirable? Are you thinking of faux dive-looking bars or the true low brow grimy ones in tough neighborhoods? I can tell you that I certainly wouldn't want the latter in my neighborhood. Whiskey Priest and Atlantic Beer Garden are more than grimy enough for me.

Let me attempt to analyze (and I am not attesting to holding the same opinion as Rover):

* A lot of the new restaurants that open in rapidly-developed areas seem fake, and feel like they are a rip-off.
* They are often projects of large restaurant groups who own a portfolio of many other restaurants in the city, and (at least to me) I feel like the pricing scheme, ingredients, even the decor, are excessively calculated and formulaic
* "dive bars" and "cheap Chinese restaurants" may have their flaws, but they often feel authentic and are often much more affordable (I mean, you don't have to be poor to appreciate an ice cold draft at $4/pint versus craft-beer-du-jour at $9/pint)
* we risk broad-brushing this...there are many types of restaurants that can't be so neatly characterize into "authentic/not-a-rip-off" versus "new/fake/rip-off". Our great city has an entire spectrum in the middle
* But the difference between Seaport, which is all BRAND new, versus someplace like Davis Sq. which has gentrified substantially but at its root is OLD, is that there's still Sligo Pub in Davis...in other words, even for someone who is comfortably middle class, there's a time and a place and a comfort in grabbing an ice-cold PBR for 3 bucks on a hot summer day. I mean, think about it, Davis has a few enduring places (another example is McKinnon's meat market) that could never be replicated in the Sea Port.

This isn't a complaint, it's just an observation that Rover has a point that the retail outlets are all brand-spanking-shiney-new and have a bit of an inauthentic feel to them - understandably so, the rents are high, the up-front capital requirements are high...the area simply isn't conducive to Mom & Pops. Maybe it will just take a few lease turn-over cycles to help rents settle down and less corporate/formulaic places to find their way into the Seaport

 

[Man about town]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Let me attempt to analyze (and I am not attesting to holding the same opinion as Rover):

* A lot of the new restaurants that open in rapidly-developed areas seem fake, and feel like they are a rip-off.
* They are often projects of large restaurant groups who own a portfolio of many other restaurants in the city, and (at least to me) I feel like the pricing scheme, ingredients, even the decor, are excessively calculated and formulaic
* "dive bars" and "cheap Chinese restaurants" may have their flaws, but they often feel authentic and are often much more affordable (I mean, you don't have to be poor to appreciate an ice cold draft at $4/pint versus craft-beer-du-jour at $9/pint)
* we risk broad-brushing this...there are many types of restaurants that can't be so neatly characterize into "authentic/not-a-rip-off" versus "new/fake/rip-off". Our great city has an entire spectrum in the middle
* But the difference between Seaport, which is all BRAND new, versus someplace like Davis Sq. which has gentrified substantially but at its root is OLD, is that there's still Sligo Pub in Davis...in other words, even for someone who is comfortably middle class, there's a time and a place and a comfort in grabbing an ice-cold PBR for 3 bucks on a hot summer day. I mean, think about it, Davis has a few enduring places (another example is McKinnon's meat market) that could never be replicated in the Sea Port.

This isn't a complaint, it's just an observation that Rover has a point that the retail outlets are all brand-spanking-shiney-new and have a bit of an inauthentic feel to them - understandably so, the rents are high, the up-front capital requirements are high...the area simply isn't conducive to Mom & Pops. Maybe it will just take a few lease turn-over cycles to help rents settle down and less corporate/formulaic places to find their way into the Seaport

+100

Nobody's advocating for a windowless bucket of blood or bulletproof-glass chop suey joint in the lobby of the Benjamin. But a modest bar like the Sligo - or even the Brendan Behan in JP - literally can not afford to operate in the Seaport right now. Neither can a normal diner like, say, McKenna's or any inexpensive ethnic restaurant of the sort you find all over the place elsewhere in and around Boston.

These are the sort of places that make a neighborhood feel "authentic" or lived-in, not another Shake Shack or Sweetgreen or By Chloe just like the one in Downtown, Back Bay, Fenway, Ink Block, Kendall, etc. As great as those are.

In the short run, there's really not much you can do about this. Construction costs and rents are so high that only the established chains and deep-pocketed one-offs can go in there. But over time, hopefully, it'll evolve, when rents inevitably dip and a wider variety of retail can establish itself. The Seaport will probably never be Davis Square. But it could be better than it is.

 

[JumboBuc]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Scotty Van Voorhis (remember him) wrote once that the Seaport was going to eventually bring in around $60 million a year in new property taxes. That was before any of Seaport Square was approved. I started to do a quick back of the envelope estimate during the weekend but got bored of it. Very hard to estimate what the taxes are on newly-built buildings because they haven't been assessed yet. My guess is $20 million a year, thus far. Not a bad start but you can see that, even at full build-out, it's not as if the Seaport will make a big difference (nor, for that matter, will either Millennium Tower).

Yes, condos are a million or more, but there is currently just a dozen condo buildings completed in 02210, with only two in the "Seaport" proper (the rest being "Fort Point"); all the other projects are apartments. 50 Liberty will add another ~150 and then Pier 4 and the M parcels will come online.

There were just 68 condo sales in 02210 during 2016. There was 100 more in 2015 due to 22 Liberty closings. There's not a lot of real estate activity here, sales-wise.

But for property tax, apartments pay more than condos and commercial pays more than apartments.

Just clicking around the Boston assessing map, 2018 property taxes look like this:

101 Seaport Blvd = $5.8 million
One Marina Park = $6.7 million
50 Northern = $7.5 million
11 Fan Pier = $6.9 million
110 Northern = $5.4 million
142 Northern = $2.3 million

That's just a sample...

I don't see any undeveloped lots that pay more than $1.5 million or so in taxes, and some of those lots are huge. For an example, the undeveloped lot at 10 Fan Pier Blvd will pay $366k in 2018 taxes while One Marina Park Drive next door will pay almost 20x that. It looks to me like a rough rule-of-thumb would be that each building increases annual property tax revenue by about $5 million.

We are well passed $20 million a year by my count, and probably approaching $60 million with all the stuff under construction now.

* But the difference between Seaport, which is all BRAND new, versus someplace like Davis Sq. which has gentrified substantially but at its root is OLD, is that there's still Sligo Pub in Davis...in other words, even for someone who is comfortably middle class, there's a time and a place and a comfort in grabbing an ice-cold PBR for 3 bucks on a hot summer day. I mean, think about it, Davis has a few enduring places (another example is McKinnon's meat market) that could never be replicated in the Sea Port.

I love Sligo as much as anyone, but the crowd that hangs out there is in no way "comfortably middle class". It's composed of "townies" who are well below "comfortably middle class" on the socio-economic spectrum, and millennial hipsters who are a whole 'nother demographic.

But besides this, I really don't get this whole line of criticism (in general, not from you bigpicture). Yes, everything in the Seaport is new and it doesn't have (very many) long-tenured establishments. So what? It's new. Anything that goes in there it will be, by definition, new. There's no way around that.

This is like saying that children suck because they're small, don't know very much, and can't give insightful opinions on politics and world events at dinner parties. Give them time! They'll grow and mature. Don't judge them now for their lack of history.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I love Sligo as much as anyone, but the crowd that hangs out there is in no way "comfortably middle class". It's composed of "townies" who are well below "comfortably middle class" on the socio-economic spectrum, and millennial hipsters who are a whole 'nother demographic.

But besides this, I really don't get this whole line of criticism (in general, not from you bigpicture). Yes, everything in the Seaport is new and it doesn't have (very many) long-tenured establishments. So what? It's new. Anything that goes in there it will be, by definition, new. There's no way around that.

This is like saying that children suck because they're small, don't know very much, and can't give insightful opinions on politics and world events at dinner parties. Give them time! They'll grow and mature. Don't judge them now for their lack of history.

Middle class doesn't have to mean you fit into a certain tax bracket. If you're a "townie" that normally means you've lived there for quite some time. Good chance you own. Good chance you bought for a quite cheap mortgage by today's standards. This means you can make much less than new residents who are paying tons more for their homes in the area. Meaning at the end of the day, after expenses, they might be clearing as much or more than the "comfortably middle class" person you are referring to. Who is more comfortable at that point?

Some of the criticism of the establishments in the Seaport are not just that they are new, but they cost a lot, or a lot more than places you find in "traditional" neighborhoods. I know why this is, don't need a history or financial lecture. Doesn't mean it's good or best for a growing neighborhood. South Park and their season of Whole Foods can explain much of it better than I ever could, and much more humorously.

All those shiny new places might be great. Plenty of them are not my taste or style, but that hardly matters. People love them. People want them in their neighborhoods. But, if you actually live there, and those are your options, they start sucking. Not in quality as much as a vacuum emptying your wallet. If this is a new neighborhood for families to live, how do they subsist on the available options on top of their crazy high rents or mortgages? There will be a market at some point, so the ones that can cook and eat in, will for cheaper. But, there is something about having that Chinese joint around the corner to pick up your $40 bag of apps that pass for Chinese food around here and feed 2 to 4 people for the night.

 

[JumboBuc]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Middle class doesn't have to mean you fit into a certain tax bracket. If you're a "townie" that normally means you've lived there for quite some time. Good chance you own. Good chance you bought for a quite cheap mortgage by today's standards. This means you can make much less than new residents who are paying tons more for their homes in the area. Meaning at the end of the day, after expenses, they might be clearing as much or more than the "comfortably middle class" person you are referring to. Who is more comfortable at that point?

Some of the criticism of the establishments in the Seaport are not just that they are new, but they cost a lot, or a lot more than places you find in "traditional" neighborhoods. I know why this is, don't need a history or financial lecture. Doesn't mean it's good or best for a growing neighborhood. South Park and their season of Whole Foods can explain much of it better than I ever could, and much more humorously.

All those shiny new places might be great. Plenty of them are not my taste or style, but that hardly matters. People love them. People want them in their neighborhoods. But, if you actually live there, and those are your options, they start sucking. Not in quality as much as a vacuum emptying your wallet. If this is a new neighborhood for families to live, how do they subsist on the available options on top of their crazy high rents or mortgages? There will be a market at some point, so the ones that can cook and eat in, will for cheaper. But, there is something about having that Chinese joint around the corner to pick up your $40 bag of apps that pass for Chinese food around here and feed 2 to 4 people for the night.

I totally agree that many "townies" definitely fit in the category of "comfortably middle class". I'm not sure that that's true, however, for the particular set of townies who hang out in Sligo.

Is there an example of a new built-from-scratch development or neighborhood that has "hole-in-the-wall" / "mom-and-pop" style retail establishments? I'm honestly curious.

I get the appeal and value of those types of places, 100%. The prevalence of neighborhood pizza joints and sandwich shops instead of chains is one of the things I love about New England. I just think that these establishments are, inherently, a product of older neighborhoods. I don't think you can separate the "newness" of the Seaport retail environment from it's "blandness", for lack of a better term.

 

[bigpicture7]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Is there an example of a new built-from-scratch development or neighborhood that has "hole-in-the-wall" / "mom-and-pop" style retail establishments? I'm honestly curious.

This is a very limited example, but it's the only thing I can think of in this area:

In Cambridge, near MIT, there are a couple of new developments (large commercial/bio-research buildings) with ground floor retail that got populated by Mom & Pops that moved from nearby existing locations into the new construction. Specifically, University Stationery, and Cafe Luna.

I am not sure what kind of deals they got, but it's nice that the ground floor retail in these new developments got some local character. It could be that because both of these large buildings were MIT Development Co-backed that profitability of the retail spaces wasn't as prioritized and/or this was a Cambridge community outreach deal they worked out?? (I honestly don't know). Either way I give this example specifically because greater-Kendall is as high-rent of an area as Seaport.

 

[mcus29]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

It could be that because both of these large buildings were MIT Development Co-backed that profitability of the retail spaces wasn't as prioritized and/or this was a Cambridge community outreach deal they worked out??

Nimby's should fight for that.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Those two Kendall buildings are also not only owned by MIT, but have big time tenants leasing the rest of the entire buildings (Pfizer at 610 Main & Millennium/Takeda at 300).

Sulmona in 610 is also a local joint, although part of an existing smaller family of restaurants with Amelia's on Portland and Mexicali in Tech Square. All a little too pricey for my everyday use, but nonetheless.

 

[Man about town]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Nimby's should fight for that.

Some zoning districts in Cambridge, especially in/around Kendall, do have some zoning requirements for local/independent retail. Not sure about those buildings.

 

[jl326]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Let me attempt to analyze (and I am not attesting to holding the same opinion as Rover):

* A lot of the new restaurants that open in rapidly-developed areas seem fake, and feel like they are a rip-off.
* They are often projects of large restaurant groups who own a portfolio of many other restaurants in the city, and (at least to me) I feel like the pricing scheme, ingredients, even the decor, are excessively calculated and formulaic
* "dive bars" and "cheap Chinese restaurants" may have their flaws, but they often feel authentic and are often much more affordable (I mean, you don't have to be poor to appreciate an ice cold draft at $4/pint versus craft-beer-du-jour at $9/pint)
* we risk broad-brushing this...there are many types of restaurants that can't be so neatly characterize into "authentic/not-a-rip-off" versus "new/fake/rip-off". Our great city has an entire spectrum in the middle
* But the difference between Seaport, which is all BRAND new, versus someplace like Davis Sq. which has gentrified substantially but at its root is OLD, is that there's still Sligo Pub in Davis...in other words, even for someone who is comfortably middle class, there's a time and a place and a comfort in grabbing an ice-cold PBR for 3 bucks on a hot summer day. I mean, think about it, Davis has a few enduring places (another example is McKinnon's meat market) that could never be replicated in the Sea Port.

This isn't a complaint, it's just an observation that Rover has a point that the retail outlets are all brand-spanking-shiney-new and have a bit of an inauthentic feel to them - understandably so, the rents are high, the up-front capital requirements are high...the area simply isn't conducive to Mom & Pops. Maybe it will just take a few lease turn-over cycles to help rents settle down and less corporate/formulaic places to find their way into the Seaport

Good post. I get what you are saying. I'm all for great authentic, family-owned restaurants that are not associated with groups like Landry's, for example. I think I only meant to say that I had associated "dive" with "run down," which doesn't necessarily have to be true.

On the other hand, I don't think your example of Sligo's was a great example . Having no idea of what Sligo's is, I Googled it and looked at some pictures. Here's what I saw not 15 seconds into the search. Yeah.. I'm ok not having that in my neighborhood