Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: South Boston Seaport

Um, are you arguing that Bin Laden is a scapegoat who's been unfairly demonized?

Do you really think that? I knew someone would be stupid and ignorant enough to ask that and I'm not at all surprised it's you.

All I'm saying is it's good to have people counter balance that developers. Take a look at what New York is doing along it's waterfront.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Of course I don't actually think that. It was just a way to point out that your metaphor was clumsy - and warn you about how your prose could easily be misconstrued.

Thanks for presuming I was "ignorant and stupid," though. Like redundancy much?
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

That is not a very useful or constructive comment.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Whatever you might think of NIMBYs and self appointed leaders such as Vivian Li, comparing them to the most notorious villain of the past fifty years isn't wise. It trivializes the crimes of terrorists while wildly overstating the impact of people like Li.

That's bull and you know it. Read my post.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

I think what the Boston Harbor Association is trying to do is admirable. Despite her demonization, Vivian Li has been good for Boston. I don't think she advocates open space for the sake of open space. I think her main goal is to keep the harbor accessible to the public. I can easily see luxury condos/hotels blocking harbor access for their guests/residents. It takes a group such as Boston Harbor Association to fight against these market pressures. I for one, am glad that eventually you will be able to walk over 40+ miles along the harbor without any obstacles. This long-term view is very rare in urban planning and should be celebrated rather than demonized.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

PaulC,

my apologies, I did misread your post.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Is there a thread for the Pier 4 development:

302037487.jpg


I tried doing a search, but I couldn't find anything...
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Yeah, it looks kind of inviting. Or better than what's there now at the least. Looks like they incorporated some of Fan Pier and Seaport Square in their rendering. Not sure if this is old or not, but here's the architect's site:

http://www.arrowstreet.com/project.php?p=42&c=7

There's also a master plan for what looks like the Economic Dev Industrial Corp land, east of the convention center:

1266930478.jpg


Maybe they were just submissions for a design competition or something, but I thought I'd post them.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Those renderings just make me think of how I still can't imagine an area that dense being served by a little bus line.

I hope for their sake that they're planning lots and lots of garages.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Those renderings just make me think of how I still can't imagine an area that dense being served by a little bus line.

I hope for their sake that they're planning lots and lots of garages.

Cople/pru area is mainly served by the green line, which has pretty much the same capacity, in that the SL can have its capacity expanded to green line levels at very little cost.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Cople/pru area is mainly served by the green line, which has pretty much the same capacity, in that the SL can have its capacity expanded to green line levels at very little cost.

Don't forget the Orange Line and Commuter Rail at Back Bay Station.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Cople/pru area is mainly served by the green line, which has pretty much the same capacity, in that the SL can have its capacity expanded to green line levels at very little cost.

Converting the SL to light rail would not be cheap, especially in light of the fact the MBTA is going to pay a 600 million dollar premium to build Phase 3 as a bus, as opposed to rail line.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Silver Line runs pretty frequently and in its own right-of-way. It's not like you're depending on the #1 Harvard-Dudley bus.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

I don't mean to be lazy, but I can't seem to find out ... who owns Pier 4, again?

* Hynes & Co are behind Seaport Square, bankrolled by Morgan Stanley
* John Drew & Fidelity own or manage Seaport Hotel & office building (or is it two office buildings, now?)
* Joe Fallon controls Fan Pier, also Park Lane apartments
* Hynes & Vornado are behind Filene's building replacement

Do I got that right?

Thanks.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Mall king: Tide?s against Pier 4 project start

The long-awaited redevelopment of the landmark Anthony?s Pier 4 site into waterfront condos, shops and offices has been placed on hold.

Retail development king Stephen Karp made a fortune building and, later, selling malls around the country.

But Karp contends the timing is still not right for launching construction of his Pier 4 redevelopment, a project now roughly a decade in the making. The Newton-based developer won approval for a 1 million-square-foot remake of Pier 4 back in 2005, a plan that features 200 luxury condos, a 250-foot office high-rise, a hotel and ground floor shops.

But the market has shifted, Karp told the Herald.

Next door, the stylish glass-and-steel Institute of Contemporary Art opened in 2006, while Fan Pier developer Joseph Fallon is pushing ahead with his first building, having just picked Turner Construction for the $125 million project.

?The market obviously isn?t there for high-end condos right now,? Karp said. ?You don?t want to outthink the economy.?

Not everyone was thrilled to hear that the long-promised remake of Pier 4 is on the back burner.

Karp first homed in on the site in the late 1990s, then spent several years crafting plans for the high-profile property and shepherding it through the city and state approval process.

During that time, a new convention center took shape and Pier 4?s namesake Anthony Athanas died.

State Rep. Brian Wallace (D-South Boston) said he is disappointed the project, after years of anticipation, isn?t ready yet to move forward.

?It?s been so long it?s almost like a never-ending proposition,? Wallace said

http://bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1095163
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Name that new town
Some say Seaport; city calls it South Boston Waterfront
By Scott Van Voorhis / Herald Highlight
Monday, June 9, 2008


Development is booming along the waterfront by Fan Pier and the Moakley federal courthouse. But confusion reigns over the area?s name and even its brand identity.

City Hall is preparing to roll out dozens of signs for pedestrians and motorists across the fast-growing district stamped with its official name: South Boston Waterfront.

But even as city officials put up signs with the area?s government-sanctioned name, the ?Seaport? label - born during the 1990s as plans were being laid for the redevelopment of this key stretch of harborside - survives.

Outside South Boston and City Hall, business executives and tourists alike continue to refer to the area as the Seaport, said Patrick Moscaritolo, president of the Greater Boston Convention and Visitors Bureau.

And for one top local branding expert, the popularity of the Seaport name is an opportunity to be seized. The debate comes with billions in new office, residential and retail moving forward after decades of planning.

?A brand identity is important for many reasons, and the number one reason is sales,? said Richard Krezwick, head of the Massachusetts Sports and Entertainment Commission and former chief of the new Garden. ?It needs to be sold to tourists, residents and potential businesses.?

The Seaport name has the cachet needed to provide the overarching identity for the eclectic district, which ranges from a giant convention hall to artists? cooperatives to planned waterfront condo towers.

Krezwick argues that ?South Boston Waterfront,? to outsiders anyway, conjures up images of Castle Island.

He sees the potential for a brand campaign by city and business leaders that would focus solely on the word Seaport, dropping even the word district from its name.

Still, within the Seaport, there would be further branding and naming opportunities within the area, what Krezwick uses the term ?micro-neighborhoods? to describe. There could be a microneighborhood around the convention center and a residentially focused one closer to the waterfront. The cruise terminal farther down the harborfront could have its own district, he added.

?The neighborhood needs a real identity,? Krezwick said. ?It can happen organically like the North End, or from a cohesive effort.?

Others on the waterfront are already capitalizing on the power of the Seaport name.

The Seaport Hotel, built in the ?90s, was one of the fledgling district?s first major establishments.

A few blocks away, developer John Hynes, grandson of one of Boston?s more well-regarded mayors, has unveiled plans for more than 6 million square feet of new development.

He has christened his multibillion-dollar neighborhood-within-a-neighborhood, which would have 5,000 residents and a school, Seaport Square.

?You can name things officially whatever you want; it?s what the public refers to it as? that really counts, argued David Begelfer, chief executive of the local chapter of the National Association of Industrial and Office Properties. ?The branding is going to develop on its own anyway. I think basically you are going to see it referred to as the Seaport.?

However, the stubborn survival of the Seaport name comes despite a concerted effort by City Hall and South Boston elected officials to promote the area as the South Boston Waterfront.

Susan Elsbree, a spokeswoman for the Boston Redevelopment Authority, said the question of what to name the district, in the city?s view, was settled years ago.

When city officials promote the area to businesses around the country, everyone, from Mayor Thomas M. Menino on down, refers to the area as the South Boston Waterfront. It is the name used in the city?s marketing materials as well. Other stakeholders, such as the Massachusetts Port Authority and the Massachusetts Convention Center Authority, are also using the official name.

?We are constantly marketing the South Boston waterfront as the city?s next frontier, but we are marketing it as the South Boston Waterfront,? Elsbree said.

But the dueling names may actually mirror competing visions for both the waterfront?s brand identity and its future.

Developers tout the variety of projects they have planned, part of the mixed-use school of development. That means a mix of everything, from schools and cultural institutions to parks and marinas, office high-rises and posh condo projects.

But to state Rep. Brian Wallace (D-South Boston), the name South Boston Waterfront means what is suggests, that the area is an extension of the larger South Boston neighborhood. He said he is pushing to give South Boston shops a chance to open up in some of these new buildings, as well as securing jobs for neighborhood residents.

?We have to make sure it?s an extension of South Boston,? Wallace said. ?We can?t have a tale of two cities, one starting north of Summer Street and the other starting south of Summer Street. We have to put our own identity on it.?

Not everyone, though, believes what this crucial stretch of waterfront is called is all that important.

Seaport or no Seaport, the area is fast taking on an identity of its own as a cutting-edge area of chrome, steel and glass buildings and fashionable restaurants, said Vivien Li, executive director of the Boston Harbor Association.

She ticks off a long list of restaurateurs taking a chance on the waterfront, from No. 9?s Barbara Lynch to Legal Sea Foods? Roger Berkowitz.

?It is becoming the edgy part of the city,? Li said. ?It?s Boston of the 21st century.?



Link
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

More on the Seaport area:


Fan Pier work pushes harbor change forward
By Scott Van Voorhis
Monday, June 9, 2008

After decades of planning, and sometimes crushing setbacks, the vision of a new neighborhood along the waterfront near the Moakley courthouse and Fan Pier is starting to finally take hold.

At Fan Pier, longtime waterfront builder Joe Fallon is pushing ahead with plans for roughly 3 million square feet of new development. He has kicked off work on his first building, a 500,000-square-foot office complex, and is busy planning for new condo and hotel high-rises, retail-lined boulevards and parks.

Across Northern Avenue, John Hynes, another longtime city developer, has filed plans with City Hall for an even more ambitious undertaking, Seaport Square. Like Fallon at Fan Pier, Hynes envisions a neighborhood within a neighborhood that would include a school, civic and cultural space, as well as office high-rises, shops and condos and homes for 5,000 residents.
Hynes - whose Gale Co. is also busy developing a new city in South Korea - has just begun the city review process, but hopes to start work later this year on a couple of smaller condo buildings.

If Hynes? project wins approval as proposed, it would be the largest single development in Boston history.

Meanwhile, a few blocks away, another longtime veteran of the waterfront development scene, John Drew, hopes to start work soon on his long-planned Waterside Place. That $600 million endeavor calls for 425,000 square feet of retail space, 200 condos and 300 hotel rooms.

The new projects join a growing neighborhood that features a battleship-size convention hall and Fidelity Investments? World Trade Center hotel, office and meeting complex. Not to mention other assorted luxury condo and office buildings and a Fort Point warehouse district that has become a nexus for artists and office and condo developers.

?I think it?s in transition,? said Drew of the waterfront. ?It should be all of the above - a city in the city and an extension of the downtown. Both are appropriate and not at odds with each other.

?There is room for everything and all those everythings are able to mesh pretty nicely together,? he added.

As these megaprojects prepare to move forward, it ends a decades-long chapter of sometimes bitter debate over the area?s future.

As early as the 1980s, City Hall began eyeing the development potential of the sprawling surface parking lots and industrial businesses clustered around a few waterfront icons, such as Anthony?s Pier 4 and Jimmy?s Harborside.

But plans to turn Fan Pier into a new neighorhood collapsed in the late 1980s amid legal feuds among the project?s developers. Chicago?s billionaire Pritzker family, owner of the Hyatt chain, took over Fan Pier and started putting their own plans together in the late 1990s.

But the Pritzkers and their development team got bogged down in battles with neighborhood and environmental activists over the project?s size and design. While the Pritzkers eventually won approval to build, the market went south after the 2001 recession.

A few years later the Pritzkers sold the site and its plans to Fallon, a local developer well-versed in city politics.

Fallon has succeeded where others failed, starting construction on Fan Pier?s first building last year.

Meanwhile, the public sector has entered the waterfront development race.

The FBI has been eyeing a site near the convention center for a large, new Boston headquarters. And Mayor Thomas Menino has proposed building a new city hall farther down the waterfront at the city-owned Marine Industrial Park.
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/real_estate/view.bg?articleid=1099542
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

As much as the idea of "Branding" a neighborhood makes me cringe, South Boston Waterfront is definitly a more confusing name than Seaport. Where is the "Waterfront" in Southie? It could be anywhere from Castle Island to L Street Beach to Carson Beach. Where is the "Seaport" in Southie? It's just much clearer as to what you're refering to.

Oh, and creating a "Tale of two Southies"? There has always been two Southies. It's just that it used to be East vs. West and now it's North vs. South.
 
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