Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[Gunner02]

The Monday Morning QB here is insane. The net gain from everything done is unquantifiable, rhetorically . We went from parking lots to not just full development but housing (I know what you're going to say, relax), business, economy, urban planning... I mean everyone just stop bitching. The fact that this is what it has become and the brick and mortar business that was 'dead forever' two years is booming there is such a testament to foot traffic brought by genuinely attractive planning. This city in just 10 years BLEW UP; One congress, WT, conversion of north station and South Station Tower is no doubt beyond what any of us ever dreamed possible a decade ago. In addition to ALL of seaport, One Dalton, Raffles, MT, etc etc etc etc., like come on.

Seaport may have started out 'square' but it had no leverage for attracting businesses, let alone ones of any notoriety; let alone ones the city could actually instruct on design or on urban planning contribution. As it grew, so did the leverage, and I think it's honestly pretty impressive. Furthermore, dealing with FAA air rights restrictions under 300'.

And also, stop bringing politics into this. The same underlying 'foundations', 'groups', conservationists and environmentalists, are going to be there during any respective party's term. Outcome deviation wouldn't fluctuate anywhere near the exaggeration of blame floated in this forum.

 

[TC_zoid]

The mass transportation access from this area is like nothing I've seen anywhere, or from a place with such business notability. South Station and all the way to D.C. in the Acela, the Red Line to MIT and Harvard, then one change to the Downeaster going up to NH and Maine, and the Silver Line is what, 5 minutes to Logan? I travel to and visit a lot of cities in the U.S. I see The Seaport becoming a much larger focus.

 

[Justbuildit]

The Monday Morning QB here is insane. The net gain from everything done is unquantifiable, rhetorically . We went from parking lots to not just full development but housing (I know what you're going to say, relax), business, economy, urban planning... I mean everyone just stop bitching. The fact that this is what it has become and the brick and mortar business that was 'dead forever' two years is booming there is such a testament to foot traffic brought by genuinely attractive planning. This city in just 10 years BLEW UP; One congress, WT, conversion of north station and South Station Tower is no doubt beyond what any of us ever dreamed possible a decade ago. In addition to ALL of seaport, One Dalton, Raffles, MT, etc etc etc etc., like come on.

Seaport may have started out 'square' but it had no leverage for attracting businesses, let alone ones of any notoriety; let alone ones the city could actually instruct on design or on urban planning contribution. As it grew, so did the leverage, and I think it's honestly pretty impressive. Furthermore, dealing with FAA air rights restrictions under 300'.

And also, stop bringing politics into this. The same underlying 'foundations', 'groups', conservationists and environmentalists, are going to be there during any respective party's term. Outcome deviation wouldn't fluctuate anywhere near the exaggeration of blame floated in this forum.

I’ve made this same point elsewhere about trying to downplay aesthetic preferences (and general Boston fear of new things from all sides); people vote with their feet and Seaport is almost always absolutely packed, year round. It could use more housing and a little slower traffic on seaport Blvd but the neighborhood is a hit.

 

[Nemo]

The Monday Morning QB here is insane. The net gain from everything done is unquantifiable, rhetorically . We went from parking lots to not just full development but housing (I know what you're going to say, relax), business, economy, urban planning... I mean everyone just stop bitching. The fact that this is what it has become and the brick and mortar business that was 'dead forever' two years is booming there is such a testament to foot traffic brought by genuinely attractive planning. This city in just 10 years BLEW UP; One congress, WT, conversion of north station and South Station Tower is no doubt beyond what any of us ever dreamed possible a decade ago. In addition to ALL of seaport, One Dalton, Raffles, MT, etc etc etc etc., like come on.

Seaport may have started out 'square' but it had no leverage for attracting businesses, let alone ones of any notoriety; let alone ones the city could actually instruct on design or on urban planning contribution. As it grew, so did the leverage, and I think it's honestly pretty impressive. Furthermore, dealing with FAA air rights restrictions under 300'.

And also, stop bringing politics into this. The same underlying 'foundations', 'groups', conservationists and environmentalists, are going to be there during any respective party's term. Outcome deviation wouldn't fluctuate anywhere near the exaggeration of blame floated in this forum.

If your comments are at least partly in response to my posts then you're taking my words expressing my disappointment with the Summer St. steps and turning them into a condemnation of the whole Seaport that I actually never made. For the record, I'm amazed at how the Seaport has turned out. I was one of those true believers who way back when thought it could be another Back Bay, and the result has far surpassed the very high expectations I had then. One of my favorite activities nowadays is watching you Tube walking tours of the Seaport like the one in my prior post, and like I said, I'm just astounded at how the place has turned out. I'm so looking forward to experiencing being there in person!

My posts are just expressing my disappointment that what I think could have been Boston's version of the Spanish Steps is being thought of as nothing more than a convenience that will let you go from the BCEC to Row 34 in 10 minutes instead of 30. To me that's wasting an opportunity to create a great urban space and I guess I'm just venting my frustration over that. But the deed is done, the game is lost, and my comments do amount to Monday morning QB'ing, so I'll just shut up now. Sorry.

 

[ritchiew]

so I'll just shut up now

I appreciated your criticism here. Not sure how much I agree with you, but I like to hear thoughtful criticism. Hope you don't shut up too much.

The Monday Morning QB here is insane.

I don't really get this complaint. I'm not sure how to read this, other than maybe we shouldn't criticize things once they are built? On an architecture forum?

 

[Charlie_mta]

...so I'll just shut up now. Sorry.

I hope you don't. You're respectful and civil, and in my book that's all that matters. A good lively discussion and disagreements are what makes this board.

 

[stick n move]

I agree.

 

[stellarfun]

IMO, any analogy to the Spanish Steps is misplaced. At the top of the Spanish Steps is an obelisk dating to the early years of the Roman empire, and a church dating to 1502.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/qbWBGrBTEbUUoXSn6
A Google street-view of the obelisk and church from near the top of the Spanish Steps.

These stairs in the Seaport simply connect one roadway to another, and there is nothing monumental at either end.

 

[Nemo]

IMO, any analogy to the Spanish Steps is misplaced. At the top of the Spanish Steps is an obelisk dating to the early years of the Roman empire, and a church dating to 1502.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/qbWBGrBTEbUUoXSn6
A Google street-view of the obelisk and church from near the top of the Spanish Steps.

These stairs in the Seaport simply connect one roadway to another, and there is nothing monumental at either end.

I beg to differ. The allée canopy, framed by the canyon, would make for a very scenic view to look down on from the top of the steps — if the steps were at the center and the view wasn't blocked by trees, which is what I'm mainly complaining about.

At least to my eyes the scene above looks a lot more impressive than this

https://maps.app.goo.gl/rDjFtHTtBmcGE9LSA

And why are you assuming that the view at the top will look like this forever?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/qyvXgYG4FrWwNHuy6

There's a plan for Fort Point development that shows this area being built out in the future. Maybe if the steps were a little grander it would encourage whoever develops the side of Summer St. opposite the steps to also put up something a little grander than they might if this was just a set of commonplace steps connecting one roadway to another.

The problem here isn't so much the stairs or what's on either end. The problem here is the lack of imagination on your part and the part of the designers, and your inability to think in terms of what this could place look like in the future — with a more appropriate and imaginative design — rather than what it looks like in the present. If the designers had some creativity and imagination it could look very different in the future, maybe it could even look like a worthy counterpart to the Spanish Steps. But that takes imagination, which they don't seem to have.

My recent post on Parcel 12 made me realize that if you could take that plaza and and squeeze and stretch it so it fit here it would look and work a lot better than what's being built here now. It would be more likely to be used as a place instead of a passageway, and it might be more likely to encourage a higher level of development on the other side of Summer St. to take advantage of that fact.

From Parcel 12 post #1367 by ccole:

And just so you know, there wasn't anything monumental in Rome either until the Romans put up some monuments. We can follow their example.

 

[Gunner02]

If your comments are at least partly in response to my posts then you're taking my words expressing my disappointment with the Summer St. steps and turning them into a condemnation of the whole Seaport that I actually never made. For the record, I'm amazed at how the Seaport has turned out. I was one of those true believers who way back when thought it could be another Back Bay, and the result has far surpassed the very high expectations I had then. One of my favorite activities nowadays is watching you Tube walking tours of the Seaport like the one in my prior post, and like I said, I'm just astounded at how the place has turned out. I'm so looking forward to experiencing being there in person!

My posts are just expressing my disappointment that what I think could have been Boston's version of the Spanish Steps is being thought of as nothing more than a convenience that will let you go from the BCEC to Row 34 in 10 minutes instead of 30. To me that's wasting an opportunity to create a great urban space and I guess I'm just venting my frustration over that. But the deed is done, the game is lost, and my comments do amount to Monday morning QB'ing, so I'll just shut up now. Sorry.

No honestly, not at all. It's the aggregate summation of where every thread goes these days. I didn't at all have intent direct at anyone. We all feel it here now and get tied in at times but no, I assure you it's predicated on just he fact that we joined this for what it is inherently and we should all care about keeping the integrity of it away from everything else that gets jaded by those topics these days.

 

[Gunner02]

I appreciated your criticism here. Not sure how much I agree with you, but I like to hear thoughtful criticism. Hope you don't shut up too much.

I don't really get this complaint. I'm not sure how to read this, other than maybe we shouldn't criticize things once they are built? On an architecture forum?

No one should shut up. It's the variables that have nothing to do with architecture which are managing to dominate threads. Furthermore, I'm saying there is context for reasons why things developed as they did and are the way they are. It now usually tangents immediately, to reasons that many or most aren't justified in answering with topics that don't play a role in this. It antagonizes differences in opinion to non-relatable topics. Those that supply facts should be lauded and compounding contributions should exist in perpetuity.

Opinions are one thing, diverting threads into topics that we come here to avoid is another. Just add value. That's all.

 

[ritchiew]

And why are you assuming that the view at the top will look like this forever?

I do think it will be a while before there's anything grand at the top on Summer Street. The lot on the south side of Summer has the Mass Pike running underneath, so that's going to be by far the most expensive to redevelop. Unless there's some plan for that spot already (it's hard to keep all the seaport plans straight), then it will probably be one of the last bits filled in, if ever.

But that doesn't negate any of your other points.

 

[real_EthanHunt]

and owned by USPS....

They need a new crossing signal at Congress though, it's pretty hostile still.

that is coming.

 

[stick n move]

I’m very interested how the opposite side is going to be approached.

You cant do a mirror of the steps because it leads directly to a highway ramp and also to the center of a large parcel. Theres been a couple very bare bones renders floated around over the years, but Ive never seen anything that really works yet. Maybe have a few buildings built on the large lot with an elevated plaza in between that is even with summer st and then from there they can have different steps and connections coming down to the nearby roads at ground level?

 

[real_EthanHunt]

this image has an old version of Ft Point 100 Acres plan that includes Summer St edge

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XJHREyj_xT4/Xk1YZcPQPtI/AAAAAAAACFo/3hKAp47ZA2szW-9PUmxJpRAeF0lPgcu6gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/100%2BAcres%2B4th%2BAmendment%2BOpen%2BSpace%2BDiagram.png

this is the newer version of 100 Acres Plan but it doesnt include the Summer St edge (which didnt change)

https://www.sasaki.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Plan_with-text-labels_website-1800x1391.jpg

 

[Justbuildit]

and owned by USPS....


that is coming.

Yep, I recall seeing it described or rendered somewhere. Hope it comes soon though, because for now the stairs just sort of dump you onto a sidewalk next to a bunch of offramps. There are crossing signals at the intersection with what turns into Pier 4 Blvd, but they weren't functional as of a few days ago, leading to some dicey jaywalking.

 

[stellarfun]

FWIW, the Spanish Steps were built in 1726, over 200 years after the RC church at the top of the steps was built.

The church, Trinita dei Monti, is a French church, because the church and the land under and surrounding the church are owned by the government of France.

Construction history:
"There was only one way then to get to the completed church and convent, and that was via a dead-end track up the side of the hill on the line of the present Via Gregoriana. Pope Sixtus, however, commissioned a major road-building scheme centred on Santa Maria Maggiore, and this church was one of the destinations served. Domenico Fontana was the supervisory engineer.

"In the Middle Ages, the hills of Rome within the ancient walls were depopulated and covered with vineyards, producing pissy wine which was to attract the contempt of the French. The only thoroughfares were narrow, winding country lanes confined by vineyard walls, and there were surprisingly few of these. (A surviving fragment is by the church of Santa Balbina.)

"Pope Sixtus ordered a new road, initially named Strada Felice after him (he was baptized as Felice Peretti) which was to run from Santa Croce in Gerusalemme via Santa Maria Maggiore to Santissima Trinità, and a hairpin bend of a junction with the Via Gregoriana. The dead-end terminus of the road was the gate of the Villa Medici, later to be famous as the centre of French expatriate society in Rome in the 19th century.

"Fontana got into some difficulty surveying the north end of the new road, and had to leave the church at some height above it by excavating the side of the hill. Hence, he provided a monumental staircase which he copied from the Palazzo Senatorio on the Campidoglio. This was finished in 1587."
............
"Proposals to create a direct throughfare up the hill in front of the church were mooted [sic, mounted] immediately after completion at the end of the 16th century, and continued in the 17th. Back then, what was here was a wooded hillside. Finally, in 1717, Francesco de Sanctis was commissioned to lay out the present oversized version of a Baroque garden feature, which immediately became a casual meeting place for city folk and visitors (the contribution of Specchi is debated). The work was finished in 1725.
-----------

The Steps are an a posteriori creation, not an a priori undertaking that is being suggested for the stairs between Summer and Congress.

The obelisk at the top of the steps was put in place in 1789. It was originally in the Gardens of Sallust, and was a made-to-order Roman copy (in other words, it's not Ancient Egyptian)." [The Gardens of Sallust were constructed in the First Century C.E.]

As it is a French church, the titular bishop (usually a cardinal) is French, and normally presiding over a diocese or archdiocese in France. The administration of the church is by agreement between the Vatican and the government of France.

The above-referenced Villa Medici and the Medici Garden adjacent to the church are also French national property.

The Spanish Steps were given their English name be either Shelley, or John Keats, two English Romantic poets who lived at the foot of the Steps. In Italy, the Steps are known as La Scalinata di Trinita dei Monti; in French, L'escalier de la place d'Espagne.

At the foot of the Steps is the Monaldeschi Palace, the Palazzo di Spagna in Italian, which houses the Spanish embassy to the Vatican.

The Spanish Steps, circa 1757. In the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

 

[DZH22]

I wanted to snag a spot on Summer Street near the BCEC to see this for myself, but all the public parking had been converted into a bike lane.

 

[Nyeuthi]

Before I moved out of Boston, this area was more or less vast expanses of parking lots in the early stages of the transformation of the seaport district. Every time I come back to this hood, it always blows me away how much things have changing, by and large for the BETTER. The work the posters on this forum have done to document this for us out-of-towners has been much appreciated, but it's still shocking to see the change up in person:

Probably the money shot in this set of pics

Only thing that I wasn't a fun of, was all the signage prohibiting people to keep pets off the greenery. I assume this was due to irresponsible pet owners not picking up after themselves, but it was a bit of a pain to enjoy the area with our dog during our trip up.

 

[Nyeuthi]

But wait, there's more....