Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[Justbuildit]

Wondering if you could share more thoughts on the neighborhood. It's obviously very polarizing for Bostonians, and I've been trying to square that with the unrelenting traffic and lines everywhere. What else did you particularly like or not like? What was the most unexpected change? What would you do different as a visitor (vs imagining living in the area)?

 

[Nyeuthi]

Wondering if you could share more thoughts on the neighborhood. It's obviously very polarizing for Bostonians, and I've been trying to square that with the unrelenting traffic and lines everywhere. What else did you particularly like or not like? What was the most unexpected change? What would you do different as a visitor (vs imagining living in the area)?

I was pleasantly surprised at how busy and vibrant most of the seaport was -- the restaurants and retail areas were packed, and the holiday market area was particularly hopping. However, this vibrancy died down at around 10pm. Given this area has added a relatively large residential component, I'd like for a decent nightlife district to emerge here - As a frequent partaker of nighttime reveling, that is something that I'd love to be added -- more bars, world class nightclubs to take advantage of the money in the area, and maybe 1 or 2 music venues.
The other thing that was disappointing is pet friendly parks/facilities. This is something that a lot of cities in the country have started to emphasize esp. post covid when pet owner % blew up, and it's something that I think could be beneficial to this district.

 

[DZH22]

12/10 Top of the steps.

IMG_0467 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0469 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0470 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0471 by David Z, on Flickr

 

[DZH22]

12/10 Wandering around the Seaport.

IMG_0499 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0521 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0547 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0562 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0587 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0606 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0611 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0629 by David Z, on Flickr

IMG_0639 by David Z, on Flickr

 

[jl326]

I was pleasantly surprised at how busy and vibrant most of the seaport was -- the restaurants and retail areas were packed, and the holiday market area was particularly hopping. However, this vibrancy died down at around 10pm. Given this area has added a relatively large residential component, I'd like for a decent nightlife district to emerge here - As a frequent partaker of nighttime reveling, that is something that I'd love to be added -- more bars, world class nightclubs to take advantage of the money in the area, and maybe 1 or 2 music venues.
The other thing that was disappointing is pet friendly parks/facilities. This is something that a lot of cities in the country have started to emphasize esp. post covid when pet owner % blew up, and it's something that I think could be beneficial to this district.

My own personal take is that there are already several bars in the area, including a nightclub (Grand) and a couple others that turn clubby on weekend nights (Scorpion Bar, Empire). I think it's probably just balanced enough where the area doesn't turn completely sloppy on weekends (though it sometimes does in the Summertime). I like Grace by Nia as a music venue, and there are concerts at the Pavilion during the warmer months. I think vibrancy dies down a bit at night during the wintertime in general, not just in Seaport.

The point about pet-friendly facilities, I agree with. I'd welcome more dog park areas. Although, I'm happy to not unknowingly sit on dog poop in the green spaces where pets aren't allowed either. People seem to do a better job of picking up after their pets on sidewalks vs. grass. Again, just personal observations though.

 

[chrisbrat]

My own personal take is that there are already several bars in the area, including a nightclub (Grand) and a couple others that turn clubby on weekend nights (Scorpion Bar, Empire). I think it's probably just balanced enough where the area doesn't turn completely sloppy on weekends (though it sometimes does in the Summertime). I like Grace by Nia as a music venue, and there are concerts at the Pavilion during the warmer months. I think vibrancy dies down a bit at night during the wintertime in general, not just in Seaport.

The point about pet-friendly facilities, I agree with. I'd welcome more dog park areas. Although, I'm happy to not unknowingly sit on dog poop in the green spaces where pets aren't allowed either. People seem to do a better job of picking up after their pets on sidewalks vs. grass. Again, just personal observations though.

I'm always for more bars and music venues, and as a dog-guy/owner I also appreciate any and all additional dog-friendly spaces. Having said that, I don't think those elements are what's lacking in Seaport. It's a high-ticket neighborhood and, so long as the economy holds (sort of) and bio-tech continues to boom, it will be -- asking for more affordable housing and reasonably priced food/drink/entertainment venues here is no more grounded in reality than doing the same re: Back Bay or Beacon Hill.

That said, it would be nice to have a few spots and living areas in the Seaport that were approachable for the non-super rich. Beacon Hill Pub, Corner Tavern, Delux Cafe -- those all seem to do good business and make a pretty penny amidst multi-million dollar studio codos *and* you don't need to be of a certain tax-bracket to be a frequent patron. Toss a used record shop, a thrift store, a couple convenience stores, and something like the Sillhouette on the outskirts of the Seaport -- along with a couple more affordable rental options -- and you'd have more of an actual neighborhood and less of an outdoor Chestnut Hill Mall.

 

[BronsonShore]

That said, it would be nice to have a few spots and living areas in the Seaport that were approachable for the non-super rich. Beacon Hill Pub, Corner Tavern, Delux Cafe -- those all seem to do good business and make a pretty penny amidst multi-million dollar studio codos *and* you don't need to be of a certain tax-bracket to be a frequent patron. Toss a used record shop, a thrift store, a couple convenience stores, and something like the Sillhouette on the outskirts of the Seaport -- along with a couple more affordable rental options -- and you'd have more of an actual neighborhood and less of an outdoor Chestnut Hill Mall.

What you're asking for isn't really economically possible in the types of buildings that are going up in the Seaport. The buildings and retail spaces are too big and were too expensive to develop for anything other than high-end places and national chains. Breaking up lots into smaller footprints and selling them to different developers may have fixed this, but the city never even entertained the idea. This is why, despite the fact that someone posts a bunch of photos of active pedestrian life on Seaport Blvd and on Fan Pier once a month and most posters go "the Seaport is turning out great, what was everyone complaining about?" there are still some of us complaining.

The Seaport is an interesting and lively part of the city. It is also not nearly as good as it could've been.

 

[Justbuildit]

I don't disagree with this sentiment and absolutely have my complaints about the tier of commercial offerings in Seaport, but two things from my view:

1. The sheer number of first and second floor retail around the area. Every new building has at least 5 storefronts around the outside and many of them haven't been rented yet, although every now and then a small or local chain pops up. Much more is coming online in the next few years as well, so curious if we'll see more small storefronts opening up, especially in some of the small subdivided spaces (300 and 200 Pier 4, the Amazon buildings).

2. Fort Point, while it's baaaasically the same neighborhood, has done a better job IMO and it feels like it's less of a gold rush to open big splashy chains. Incumbents like Row34, Lucky's, Barking Crab, and the Barbara Lynch trio on Congress feel distinct from the rest of Seaport. It may be a more welcoming commercial environment for smaller retailers and restaurants. There are a number of open storefronts here as well, along A St, Melcher, Congress, and Thomson.

 

[stick n move]

I’m hopeful that as the most expensive parcels along/close to the waterfront fill up and as development starts to move more inland along A st, D st, E st that it will lead to less expensive retail spaces that can appeal to broader audiences.

 

[Suffolk 83]

What you're asking for isn't really economically possible in the types of buildings that are going up in the Seaport. The buildings and retail spaces are too big and were too expensive to develop for anything other than high-end places and national chains. Breaking up lots into smaller footprints and selling them to different developers may have fixed this, but the city never even entertained the idea. This is why, despite the fact that someone posts a bunch of photos of active pedestrian life on Seaport Blvd and on Fan Pier once a month and most posters go "the Seaport is turning out great, what was everyone complaining about?" there are still some of us complaining.

The Seaport is an interesting and lively part of the city. It is also not nearly as good as it could've been.

I agree but what if many retail storefronts sit empty for years and years? Wont they be forced to accept lower rents?

 

[Arborway]

I agree but what if many retail storefronts sit empty for years and years? Wont they be forced to accept lower rents?

Commercial buildings are often used to secure loans. The valuation of a structure is largely determined by the asking price of the space within.

If you lower rents, the value of the building drops. If you've used it as collateral, you can expect a call from your bank.

 

[awood91]

Commercial buildings are often used to secure loans. The valuation of a structure is largely determined by the asking price of the space within.

If you lower rents, the value of the building drops. If you've used it as collateral, you can expect a call from your bank.

Uhh what about good old fashioned valuation by discounted cash flows? Less cash flow = lower valuation. You say lower rents equals lower valuation but that’s only if the space is rented, not vacant. But would be good to hear from someone in the industry on this.

 

[shmessy]

That's exactly my point. It should have been a transformational addition. The ghost of Daniel Burnham would like a word with you about your expectations.

A sweeping open vista would have worked better here. There'll be plenty of trees and shade and seating along Harbor Way itself, so it's not like there's a desperate need to have those things here. And it's not like there aren't precedents they could have used as models. Imagine yourself walking down these steps

versus walking down these steps

It seems like the former is going to be a pretty underwhelming experience, even though the latter is even more enclosed. The difference is that the latter frames an open vista and leads you to it. The Summer St. steps also frame a vista, but it's obstructed by the trees, even with the tree branches bare.

This is too much visual clutter, and will get even more cluttered when the trees turn green.

Should have looked more like this. Minimal clutter to preserve a wide open vista. There's no point in trying to make the place where you're sitting look nice if you're looking at a view that's a hundred times nicer. Doing so just creates a needless distraction.

The middle seating area should have been modeled on the ICA steps or the steps at Pier 4. They work pretty well without trees and other clutter.

Following the ICA and Pier 4 models would have given people the opportunity to sit here and enjoy a great vista down the canyon and over Harbor Way. Instead they'll just be frustrated by obstructed views. Maybe the designers wanted to replicate the experience of having a beer in some seats at Fenway?

There are plenty of transformational precedents like the WTC steps, the ICA steps and Pier 4 that they could have used as models. Instead we get progress but no transformation. What a lost opportunity!

BTW, none of the images are mine. They're from other aB posts and youTube.

Boston, Massachusetts - - Home of the Bunt.

You nailed it.

They did the same thing with Copley Square/Trinity Church Plaza and City Hall Plaza. Wiped out the awe and replaced it with small, obstructed, nuggets of sitting areas.

I honestly think it all has to do with the Calvinist/Puritan mentality of the region. NY has the optimistic/big balls mentality. Boston is suspicious of and chops down people who think big. It's why Silicon Valley exists on the West Coast.

 

[shmessy]

Idk I like it but maybe I just have low expectations due to following the development process in boston closely. Sharing the fan pier steps and ica steps really do hit home how iconic they are though. The fan pier steps are a top 5 view in the city imo. What are you suggesting they did different exactly though less trees and no buildings on either side? The steps need the landings after so many steps due to the americans with disabilities act I believe too.

In particular - - the wide planters and trees in the middle dissolve the sense of grandeur and optimism. It's like the Boston matron chaperoning a 1950's dance.

 

[shmessy]

No honestly, not at all. It's the aggregate summation of where every thread goes these days. I didn't at all have intent direct at anyone. We all feel it here now and get tied in at times but no, I assure you it's predicated on just he fact that we joined this for what it is inherently and we should all care about keeping the integrity of it away from everything else that gets jaded by those topics these days.

Simply eliminate the middle planters and trees that obscure the spectacular view of the corridor to the seas and it would be fine. Seriously, there is nothing beneficial about them - - there aren't even any benches in them - all they do is tamp down and obscure the spectacular view. ***I challenge any poster here to inform us of any true benefit they bring. I'm all ears.

No one is dissing the Seaport. It is spectacular and I'm eternally thankful to the most bitched about project in Boston history - the Big Dig ((talk about a project that I'm sick of hearing the unfair moaning about....).

Get rid of the useless blockades in the middle of those steps (or at least lose the obstructing trees) and you'd have picture postcard views that would draw HUMANOIDS to it to enjoy (like the Harborwalk boardwalk).

 

[Bananarama]

I think you overstate how "spectacular" this view is. You get a tiny sliver of nondescript Eastie down the canyon of buildings. The other examples all have a much greater proportion of vista regardless of the foreground stuff. The trees also soften the severe glass edges of the block - and I'd argue the little forest itself is the attractor here, not the pinhole view. Will look very pleasant and welcoming in the Spring.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[HenryAlan]

I think you overstate how "spectacular" this view is. You get a tiny sliver of nondescript Eastie down the canyon of buildings. The other examples all have a much greater proportion of vista regardless of the foreground stuff. The tress also soften the severe glass edges of the block - and I'd argue the little forest itself is the attractor here, not the pinhole view. Will look very pleasant and welcoming in the Spring.

Just my 2 cents.

Complete agreement. The money shot view isn't until you are down at the Harbor Walk. These steps are meant for enjoyment of the path itself, with the view being the subsequent half of the experience.

 

[shmessy]

I think you overstate how "spectacular" this view is. You get a tiny sliver of nondescript Eastie down the canyon of buildings. The other examples all have a much greater proportion of vista regardless of the foreground stuff. The trees also soften the severe glass edges of the block - and I'd argue the little forest itself is the attractor here, not the pinhole view. Will look very pleasant and welcoming in the Spring.

Just my 2 cents.

I appreciate your point, however, why obstruct the vista> How about having the trees at the FRAME - by the buildings, instead of down the middle - and having benches/sitting areas in the middle. It's nice to see AHEAD in a city, not to be closed off - especially when there indeed is something different at the end of the vista - it gives a "sense of place" instead of of sense of closed-offness.

Given what has happened recently with the Govt Center/City Hall Plaza and Copley Square/Trinity Church plaza, now this - - someone in the city government has a brother-in-law who owns a sidewalk planter business.

 

[dirtywater]

I appreciate your point, however, why obstruct the vista> How about having the trees at the FRAME - by the buildings, instead of down the middle - and having benches/sitting areas in the middle. It's nice to see AHEAD in a city, not to be closed off - especially when there indeed is something different at the end of the vista - it gives a "sense of place" instead of of sense of closed-offness.

The seating areas are in the middle, with stairways on each side. The trees and shrubs separate the seating steps and the stairways.

 

[Justbuildit]

I've apparently created a misconception with some hasty photos that don't show the whole area (it was cold, I was in a hurry). See below from the Boston Seaport website. Indeed there's a seating area on "big" steps right down the middle, with some planters as buffers, then stairs and finally a bike ramp at the extremes. Is it a grand vista? Is it a Place? It's just, like, some stairs and benches that connect a formerly-isolated busy street. Go check them out!