Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

[BostonDrew]

some sort of structure on parcel D

My guess is that it'll be a sales office.

 

[TheRifleman]

C'mon guys...politicized funding cuts. This is not entirely due to planners' blindness. Since when do planners get exactly what they ask for around here?

I have a serious point on this.
How do you not plan for a massive MBTA Overhaul for Seaport before the beginning of Fan Pier and the rest of the developments?
The convention center is in this area for Christ Sake.

HOW STUPID is the CITY/STATE officials concerning this logic.

The BIG BLOCK developments don't work well without an efficient transportation system. Too much walking--to get to SST and the Silver Line bus is garbage.

It's not the architecture that is the failure for Seaport---Its the MBTA transit situation that is making the area Fail.

 

[Riverworks]

I have a serious point on this.
How do you not plan for a massive MBTA Overhaul for Seaport before the beginning of Fan Pier and the rest of the developments?
The convention center is in this area for Christ Sake.

HOW STUPID is the CITY/STATE officials concerning this logic.

The BIG BLOCK developments don't work well without an efficient transportation system. Too much walking--to get to SST and the Silver Line bus is garbage.

It's not the architecture that is the failure for Seaport---Its the MBTA transit situation that is making the area Fail.

Great question, and you make a good point. As most already know, the current Silver Line system was designed in the late 90s and constructed in the early 00s, and became fully operational in 2002, with stations incrementally coming online (in the Seaport) up until 2010. MassDOT and the MBTA added provisions to convert sections of it over to a transit (subway) line in the future. So to answer your question, in their minds, they did plan ahead for it, but just never continued planning and developing the line as the neighborhood started growing.

I remember the Seaport when I first started working in Boston around 2006 and there were only a few developments at the time (the ICA, Park Lane, maybe the Reissance Hotel), and the Silver Line was basically a line to nowhere. I almost rented an apartment at Park Lane (a 1BR for $1,600), but for me and others, it was too risky being out there alone (especially with economic conditions worsening). Oh, and by the way, the Big Dig was JUST finishing up, so for MassDOT and the MBTA to build a grandoise transportation system in the middle of nowhere was not too appealing.

But the market changed, development moved in, and now we are at a crossroads where transit demand is now exceeding available capacity on the Silver Line. As many of you mentioned here, we need to add additional buses, and start planning (designing and constructing) for future Silver Line improvements and hopefully conversion over to rail in the next 5-10 years.

 

[BKNA]

Yeah, Im not sure where your [The Rifleman] confusion is on the timeline? How do consider the silver line being constructed and open prior to any development occurring not planning for transit in the area?

The fact that the silver line is running at (less than) half the capacity it was intended is not poor planning. Its poor execution. Its also a pretty easy solution.

You can make the argument that buses instead of rail was poor long term planning, but where do you think that decision came from? economics/politics, not planning. and besides, if the T was running buses at the headways that were planned, the buses would more than meet current and future demand. So the 'need' for trains isnt entirely accurate anyway.

As for your 'long blocks', at approx 300' they are slightly longer than a Manhattan block (N/S--and much shorter than E/W blocks) and HALF the distance of a Back Bay block.

 

[jl326]

Great question, and you make a good point. As most already know, the current Silver Line system was designed in the late 90s and constructed in the early 00s, and became fully operational in 2002, with stations incrementally coming online (in the Seaport) up until 2010. MassDOT and the MBTA added provisions to convert sections of it over to a transit (subway) line in the future. So to answer your question, in their minds, they did plan ahead for it, but just never continued planning and developing the line as the neighborhood started growing.

I remember the Seaport when I first started working in Boston around 2006 and there were only a few developments at the time (the ICA, Park Lane, maybe the Reissance Hotel), and the Silver Line was basically a line to nowhere. I almost rented an apartment at Park Lane (a 1BR for $1,600), but for me and others, it was too risky being out there alone (especially with economic conditions worsening). Oh, and by the way, the Big Dig was JUST finishing up, so for MassDOT and the MBTA to build a grandoise transportation system in the middle of nowhere was not too appealing.

But the market changed, development moved in, and now we are at a crossroads where transit demand is now exceeding available capacity on the Silver Line. As many of mentioned here, we need to add additional buses, and start planning (designing and constructing) for future Silver Line improvements and hopefully conversion over to rail in the next 5-10 years.

To your point, a quick check to the leasing website now shows that a 1BR apartment at Park Lane goes for anywhere from $2828 - $4150, depending on floor plan and floor/view. The area has exploded.

 

[Riverworks]

Yeah, Im not sure where your [The Rifleman] confusion is on the timeline? How do consider the silver line being constructed and open prior to any development occurring not planning for transit in the area?

The fact that the silver line is running at (less than) half the capacity it was intended is not poor planning. Its poor execution. Its also a pretty easy solution.

You can make the argument that buses instead of rail was poor long term planning, but where do you think that decision came from? economics/politics, not planning. and besides, if the T was running buses at the headways that were planned, the buses would more than meet current and future demand. So the 'need' for trains isnt entirely accurate anyway.

As for your 'long blocks', at approx 300' they are slightly longer than a Manhattan block (N/S--and much shorter than E/W blocks) and HALF the distance of a Back Bay block.

Yeah, who knows what is the better option - enhanced bus service or a newly added rail line. One thing is for sure - as the area continues to grow and vacant sites become more and more developed, local, regional and transportation officials need to figure out what they want this system to be and how it will accommodate future growth.

I believe that a lot of the Silver Line in the Seaport is cut and cover, so it will be harder to construct something later on. It will forever be a BRT system from South Station that surfaces by the WTC and competes with surface/tunnel traffic all the way to the airport, and eventually Chelsea (although the Chelsea service will have a dedicated right-of-way in most sections).

Time to put pen to paper.

 

[jass]

 

[tysmith95]

Self driving buses?

 

[Riverworks]

That's like a tandem, tandem bus. Or a bi-directional bus?

 

[jass]

That's like a tandem, tandem bus. Or a bi-directional bus?

Simply an electric bi-articulated bus, with 5 doors for faster loading. Buy it off the shelf, put it in service in the tunnel, 25% capacity increase. The 5,000 feet platforms are certainly big enough for them

 

[bigpicture7]

how about interweaving some express busses from South Station to Logan? This would get the airport passengers out of the way of the commuters. (assuming there's enough headway gap to fit these in as a net increase in service).

 

[TheRifleman]

Yeah, Im not sure where your [The Rifleman] confusion is on the timeline? How do consider the silver line being constructed and open prior to any development occurring not planning for transit in the area?

The fact that the silver line is running at (less than) half the capacity it was intended is not poor planning. Its poor execution. Its also a pretty easy solution.

You can make the argument that buses instead of rail was poor long term planning, but where do you think that decision came from? economics/politics, not planning. and besides, if the T was running buses at the headways that were planned, the buses would more than meet current and future demand. So the 'need' for trains isnt entirely accurate anyway.

As for your 'long blocks', at approx 300' they are slightly longer than a Manhattan block (N/S--and much shorter than E/W blocks) and HALF the distance of a Back Bay block.

It was poor planning-- What happens when the area is completely built-out? You will have GLOBS of people that will not be able to access areas without walking or waiting for a bus. Its bad now---I can't imagine 5 year window from now---- Absolutely NO LOGIC to this area concerning Transit. I really can't believe BRA/City/State completely disregarded this aspect.

It was all about getting the Fallon situated for Fan Pier.

 

[BKNA]

Not sure why you quoted my post because you didn't respond to any of my points and just reiterated your (mostly incorrect) opinions that you've spewed before.

But to reiterate, when everything is built out, the silver line has the potential capacity to accommodate the people if the T runs buses at its previously planned capacity. It's really that simple. You might not be able to 'imagine' it but it's true.

And again, silver line finished before development came on line. Vertex (not Fallon) got the tax credits in 2011. (2004 happened before 2011 right? Just checking). Agree with the tax credits or not, but 2011 was a far different climate than today and saying Boston is booming now is irrelevant. Chiofaro, your favorite development (along with others), wasn't looking to build in 2011.

 

[Rover]

(2004 happened before 2011 right? Just checking).

I guess you're entitled to your own opinion.

But to reiterate, when everything is built out, the silver line has the potential capacity to accommodate the people if the T runs buses at its previously planned capacity. It's really that simple. You might not be able to 'imagine' it but it's true.

Have to agree with this. Nobody expected the build out to happen as quickly as it did. A proposal to run one of the rail lines to empty parking lots would have been laughed out of town. Everybody wants to do a splashy new project. Run more busses, get rid of D street crossing and allow busses to access tunnel via state police on ramp. Then see if there's still an issue.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Have to agree with this. Nobody expected the build out to happen as quickly as it did. A proposal to run one of the rail lines to empty parking lots would have been laughed out of town. Everybody wants to do a splashy new project. Run more busses, get rid of D street crossing and allow busses to access tunnel via state police on ramp. Then see if there's still an issue.

I guess I wonder if more thoughtful planning is needed.

Remodel the projected demand, then decide what investment is needed. Your solutions are not "free", they requires significant investment (more dual mode busses, major construction to cross under D Street, probably a law suit with the State Police to get ramp access....)

And these all won't happen overnight -- probably 5 to 10 year time horizon. So if this is a significant investment, be sure it WILL meet the needed demand projections 10 plus years out -- or redirect the investment to rail.

 

[Rover]

Remodel the projected demand, then decide what investment is needed. Your solutions are not "free", they requires significant investment (more dual mode busses, major construction to cross under D Street, probably a law suit with the State Police to get ramp access....)

And these all won't happen overnight -- probably 5 to 10 year time horizon. So if this is a significant investment, be sure it WILL meet the needed demand projections 10 plus years out -- or redirect the investment to rail.

Not free at all, but a bit more cost effective in the near term than trying to tunnel the Green line (presumably) under Fort Point channel.

I suppose on D street you could just give the bus absolute priority (except for emergency vehicles). Can the staties sue another govt agency? I mean they all work for the state at the end of the day?

I have two issues with a new subway line. If its the existing Silver line converted to trains, where exactly does it go? It can't go to Logan (the big, BIG benefit of the Silver Line for a lot of people) and I don't see it running along the streets like the bus does when it emerges from convention center/WTC stop.

If its a new extension of an existing line, get ready for some serious sticker shock. You'd have to take a branch of the Green line, tunnel under from Boylston down Essex to South Station, build a new connection, go under Fort Point channel at Summer I guess because there's no point in being too close to the existing Silver line, and then go...where? Just don't think we'll see that in our lifetimes rightly or wrongly.

 

[JumboBuc]

Not free at all, but a bit more cost effective in the near term than trying to tunnel the Green line (presumably) under Fort Point channel.

I suppose on D street you could just give the bus absolute priority (except for emergency vehicles). Can the staties sue another govt agency? I mean they all work for the state at the end of the day?

I have two issues with a new subway line. If its the existing Silver line converted to trains, where exactly does it go? It can't go to Logan (the big, BIG benefit of the Silver Line for a lot of people) and I don't see it running along the streets like the bus does when it emerges from convention center/WTC stop.

If its a new extension of an existing line, get ready for some serious sticker shock. You'd have to take a branch of the Green line, tunnel under from Boylston down Essex to South Station, build a new connection, go under Fort Point channel at Summer I guess because there's no point in being too close to the existing Silver line, and then go...where? Just don't think we'll see that in our lifetimes rightly or wrongly.

There has been beaucoup de conversation over this on ArchBoston throughout the years. For example, read through this thread, which was started fairly recently and has a bunch of posts explaining different ways in which the Green Line could swallow the Silver.

Nobody is talking about a new tunnel under Fort Point Channel.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Not free at all, but a bit more cost effective in the near term than trying to tunnel the Green line (presumably) under Fort Point channel.

I suppose on D street you could just give the bus absolute priority (except for emergency vehicles). Can the staties sue another govt agency? I mean they all work for the state at the end of the day?

I have two issues with a new subway line. If its the existing Silver line converted to trains, where exactly does it go? It can't go to Logan (the big, BIG benefit of the Silver Line for a lot of people) and I don't see it running along the streets like the bus does when it emerges from convention center/WTC stop.

If its a new extension of an existing line, get ready for some serious sticker shock. You'd have to take a branch of the Green line, tunnel under from Boylston down Essex to South Station, build a new connection, go under Fort Point channel at Summer I guess because there's no point in being too close to the existing Silver line, and then go...where? Just don't think we'll see that in our lifetimes rightly or wrongly.

The busway can be dual mode with track embedded in the floor, supporting both trolleys and buses. Buses for Logan and Chelsea; Trolleys to Design Center (maybe eventually out into Southie if they ever get over their transit aversion.)

Thought has always been to connect the South Station end of the busway back to the Green Line at Boylston in some fashion. Big expense regardless the routing, but a doable, important connection. Then you have Red, Orange and other Green Lines connected out to the Seaport.

 

[Rover]

The busway can be dual mode with track embedded in the floor, supporting both trolleys and buses. Buses for Logan and Chelsea; Trolleys to Design Center (maybe eventually out into Southie if they ever get over their transit aversion.)

Thought has always been to connect the South Station end of the busway back to the Green Line at Boylston in some fashion. Big expense regardless the routing, but a doable, important connection. Then you have Red, Orange and other Green Lines connected out to the Seaport.

So basically the second part is Silver Line phase III, right? The tunnel under Essex and into the portal that connects to South Station?

In theory I like the idea of switching to rail but does that improve the situation any is what I'm curious about. Would it have a dedicated right of way to the Design Center or is it in traffic ala the E line?

 

[davem]

So basically the second part is Silver Line phase III, right? The tunnel under Essex and into the portal that connects to South Station?

In theory I like the idea of switching to rail but does that improve the situation any is what I'm curious about. Would it have a dedicated right of way to the Design Center or is it in traffic ala the E line?

Dude, go read the the damn thread linked to above and stop talking this one off the rails.