Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

[AmericanFolkLegend]

While I've said repeatedly and vociferously on this board that I'm in favor of the vaccine for polio, this is, after all a real estate forum.
I don't understand the ill will. He worked for years amicably with the residents of South Boston to shape a vision for the Seaport but the Mayor never took to him, so nothing got built. Pretty similar with what happened to the Pritzker's and I don't think they're "cancers" either.

 

[TheRifleman]

Can someone please tell me why so many here are making MCourt out to be some kind of hero?

He is a walking cancer.

Boston is better off without him and so are the LA Dodgers.

So he enriched himself by causing catastrophe to others???? Is that the measure of success some of you use?

Thank you, but I'll look up to the Bob Krafts, Bill Gates, Jonas Salks and Peter Lynch's of this world.

I never met McCourt but I feel he is a businessman like all the others you mention.

Gates swindled Jobs Idea for Windows. Business is ugly. Bottom-line.
I give props to McCourt for buying the parking lots in the first place.

But the Dodgers fiasco will go down in history as being the first individual to file bankruptcy and to come out 3X richer than he ever was. Like I said call it dumb luck or just very savvy.

It's not like he is buying parking lots in Kentucky. These are all prime spots for development. LOCATION is everything.

 

[Sicilian]

He worked for years amicably with the residents of South Boston to shape a vision for the Seaport but the Mayor never took to him, so nothing got built. Pretty similar with what happened to the Pritzker's and I don't think they're "cancers" either.

This was what I observed during McCourt's last years of stewardship of the parcels. He gave it a go against the odds.

But I'm sure there is another side to this story. I think some ill will stems from McCourt's ownership of property required for construction of MBTA Silver Line.

 

[shmessy]

I never met McCourt but I feel he is a businessman like all the others you mention.

Gates swindled Jobs Idea for Windows. Business is ugly. Bottom-line.
I give props to McCourt for buying the parking lots in the first place.

But the Dodgers fiasco will go down in history as being the first individual to file bankruptcy and to come out 3X richer than he ever was. Like I said call it dumb luck or just very savvy.

It's not like he is buying parking lots in Kentucky. These are all prime spots for development. LOCATION is everything.

All of the people I mentioned have greatly helped others.while they became wealthy. Gates is/was a bastard, but he eradicated polio in India, has brought portable solar energy generators to villages in the Third World and is getting computers to millions in Africa.

McCourt set the Seaport back two decades and almost destroyed one of the 3 greatest and most storied franchises in MLB.

Yes, he helped himself (somehow).

So did Marc Rich and Dan Snyder.

Please tell me how Boston or the LA Dodgers have been improved by being touched by Mr. McCourt.

 

[shmessy]

This was what I observed during McCourt's last years of stewardship of the parcels. He gave it a go against the odds.

But I'm sure there is another side to this story. I think some ill will stems from McCourt's ownership of property required for construction of MBTA Silver Line.

McCourt has always been all hat and no cattle. As Gertude Setin would say "There is no 'there' there" - - actually he was worse than that. He has been worse than not just being 'there' there. He is not a zero, he is a negative.

Lots of dreams when he owned the real estate in Southie, but (and we're talking during the economic BOOM years BEFORE the crash) no financing and no concrete plans.

He leaves a trail of little more than failures that others had to clean up - - while his wealth grew only from lawsuit wins.

From freezing the Seaport District for decades in parking lots, to creating a disastrous white elephant in Baltimore with the failed Fishmarket entertainment complex bomb, to bankrupting the LA Dodgers. Please tell me, what has this guy ever successfully built? (Other than being able to manage vast acreages of parking lots).

Some suckers in DC actually respect Dan Snyder, too.

 

[stellarfun]

As it is, the rumblings in LA are that there may not be bidders for the franchise unless the parking lot king throws the parking lots in with the stadium. No bidders, no exit from bankruptcy.

 

[Sicilian]

...no financing and no concrete plans.

You may be right about his lack of financial backing, but McCourt had a reasonably comprehensive conceptual plan. It was pretty much what we have as the Seaport Square plan today, with its 250'-300' chess pieces on different squares. McCourt presented it all over town as the "Gateway Plan."

At one point, his plans were nearly dovetailed with the abutting Pritzker project -- that one was being handled with kid gloves by the BRA, hand-in-hand through approvals.

Unlike Pritzker, McCourt got the cold shoulder. Too much hostility.

He did have a ton of community support, didn't help. Those were the days when Kelly v. Menino was often in the news.

 

[shmessy]

You may be right about his lack of financial backing, but McCourt had a reasonably comprehensive conceptual plan. It was pretty much what we have as the Seaport Square plan today, with its 250'-300' chess pieces on different squares. McCourt presented it all over town as the "Gateway Plan."

At one point, his plans were nearly dovetailed with the abutting Pritzker project -- that one was being handled with kid gloves by the BRA, hand-in-hand through approvals.

Unlike Pritzker, McCourt got the cold shoulder. Too much hostility.

He did have a ton of community support, didn't help. Those were the days when Kelly v. Menino was often in the news.

"You may be right about his lack of financial backing, but McCourt had a reasonably comprehensive conceptual plan."

Great. 10-15 folks HERE have a reasonably comprehensive conceptual plan, and no financial backing, Sicil!!!! I was all set to succeed Yaz in left field back in the early '80's, I just missed one thing. Talent.

Btw, Pritzker (who had comprehensive conceptual plans AND plenty of financial backing - - - along with a proven history of development and an actual interest in architecture) received better treatment than McCourt???? I only remember that he was run out of town on a rail for not being "one of us" (along with the messy, but not insurmountable, intrafamily lawsuits). He was substance. McCourt was flotsam and jetsom.

 

[AmericanFolkLegend]

All of the people I mentioned have greatly helped others.while they became wealthy. Gates is/was a bastard, but he eradicated polio in India, has brought portable solar energy generators to villages in the Third World and is getting computers to millions in Africa.

McCourt set the Seaport back two decades and almost destroyed one of the 3 greatest and most storied franchises in MLB.

Yes, he helped himself (somehow).

So did Marc Rich and Dan Snyder.

Please tell me how Boston or the LA Dodgers have been improved by being touched by Mr. McCourt.

According to Forbes the Dodgers are worth $800M. He bought the team for $355M. That translates to a CAGR of around 13% per year. Forbes thinks he improved the team.
I never worked for or with the guy so I don't know specifics but in Boston I know he was involved in South Boston charities. He helped finance the Laboure Center and donated land to the Children's Museum.
This is a real estate board. I don't know why you keep comparing him to Jonas Salk or Bill Gates. And I don't know why I keep sticking up for him except that you called him a cancer, which seemed harsh and the direct opposite of what most old timers in South Boston will tell you about him.

 

[Sicilian]

"You may be right about his lack of financial backing, but McCourt had a reasonably comprehensive conceptual plan."

Great. 10-15 folks HERE have a reasonably comprehensive conceptual plan, and no financial backing, Sicil!!!! I was all set to succeed Yaz in left field back in the early '80's, I just missed one thing. Talent.

Btw, Pritzker (who had comprehensive conceptual plans AND plenty of financial backing - - - along with a proven history of development and an actual interest in architecture) received better treatment than McCourt???? I only remember that he was run out of town on a rail for not being "one of us" (along with the messy, but not insurmountable, intrafamily lawsuits). He was substance. McCourt was flotsam and jetsom.

Well, you're right... I was responding to the (incorrect) statement that he had "no plan."

With respect to Pritzker, maybe we're talking on two different channels. The BRA served as Pritker's water carrier -- shaping the entire Municipal Harbor Plan to fit Pritzker's Fan Pier plan like a glove. All public commitments to rezone according to more interesting plans (including a memorable set of urban design concepts by Urban Strategies of Toronto, hired by Pritzker for public consumption) went out the window in favor of the stumpy blocks.

By the way, when you say "He was substance" regarding Pritzker, my recollection is that the planning was driven by the family, not the patriarch, and family disputes began boiling up during the critical Seaport planning years. I may be wrong about this part.

 

[whighlander]

I never met McCourt but I feel he is a businessman like all the others you mention.

Gates swindled Jobs Idea for Windows. Business is ugly. Bottom-line.
I give props to McCourt for buying the parking lots in the first place.

But the Dodgers fiasco will go down in history as being the first individual to file bankruptcy and to come out 3X richer than he ever was. Like I said call it dumb luck or just very savvy.

It's not like he is buying parking lots in Kentucky. These are all prime spots for development. LOCATION is everything.

Riff -- There you go again -- firin without chekin to see if the bore is clean

" Gates swindled Jobs Idea for Windows. " -- No Windows came originally from Xerox PARC
neither Apple or Microsoft really had much to do with it originally

Same way that revisionist historians give Doug Englebart credit for GUI - -when it was developed more than a decade earlier at MIT Lincoln Laborartory for the SAGE air defense project -- using a light pen rather than the mouse as the graphical input device

Anyway -- if Gates is guilty of anything it is chutzpah, for selling DOS to IBM before his company was able to acquire it from the real inventor -- McCourt did much the same -- selling some sort of dreamland in the Seaport long before there was any reason for it

 

[bostonbred]

IAM thinkin that if dR SOLk givin CAnCer to MacMAN, he CAN GIVING THE CURE TOO!!!!! So JUST SHUT UP about BAb bad MAN you McKISSAZZES.
BOSTON RULES!!!!!

 

[TheRifleman]

All of the people I mentioned have greatly helped others.while they became wealthy. Gates is/was a bastard, but he eradicated polio in India, has brought portable solar energy generators to villages in the Third World and is getting computers to millions in Africa.

McCourt set the Seaport back two decades and almost destroyed one of the 3 greatest and most storied franchises in MLB.

Yes, he helped himself (somehow).

So did Marc Rich and Dan Snyder.

Please tell me how Boston or the LA Dodgers have been improved by being touched by Mr. McCourt.

Listen I'm sure Gates is a good guy to have a drink with and talk about computers. But lets get something straight the entire Gates, Buffett foundation is nothing more than tax shelters for these super wealthy lunatics. Not to say they won't do great things for the world but they are also investing in companies which continue to have their best interests and in which will have say who is hired and who is not. They are not contributing their fair share of taxes to the United States GOVT each year which poses a big problem with our society.

Remember Gates & Buffet made their money in a capitalistic society. It seems now that they want to game the system and say that their money is not taxpable because they are giving it all away? Are they really giving all their money away since they make hundreds of millions a each year it keeps compounding.

I think it's sham to have more control in where they want their money to be vested for the Long-term.

 

[shmessy]

According to Forbes the Dodgers are worth $800M. He bought the team for $355M. That translates to a CAGR of around 13% per year. Forbes thinks he improved the team.
.

.....all the way into bankruptcy court in order to avoid the league from stepping in to run the franchise.

The parking lots in the Seaport that sat there for years during boom times in the economy are the other legacy.

If this guy was smarter, he could have been Dan Snyder......or Bernie Madoff.

Obviously, there are some folks here who think that Frank McCourt has been a positive for Boston and Los Angeles. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[shmessy]

Listen I'm sure Gates is a good guy to have a drink with and talk about computers. But lets get something straight the entire Gates, Buffett foundation is nothing more than tax shelters for these super wealthy lunatics. Not to say they won't do great things for the world but they are also investing in companies which continue to have their best interests and in which will have say who is hired and who is not. They are not contributing their fair share of taxes to the United States GOVT each year which poses a big problem with our society.

Remember Gates & Buffet made their money in a capitalistic society. It seems now that they want to game the system and say that their money is not taxpable because they are giving it all away? Are they really giving all their money away since they make hundreds of millions a each year it keeps compounding.

I think it's sham to have more control in where they want their money to be vested for the Long-term.

1) Evidently, you're one of the few who've missed the public campaign Warren Buffet has waged the past several months regarding his personal taxes. He has made his secretary into a folk hero.

2) What's wrong with making money in a capitalist society? If one is successful and builds things through business that SHOULD be rewarded.

McCourt, however, delays and FAILS, leaves others with a mess to clean up and PROFITS through lawsuits and bankruptcies. He has proven to be the antithesis of progess and development.

Not MY hero.

 

[TheRifleman]

1) Evidently, you're one of the few who've missed the public campaign Warren Buffet has waged the past several months regarding his personal taxes. He has made his secretary into a folk hero.

2) What's wrong with making money in a capitalist society? If one is successful and builds things through business that SHOULD be rewarded.

McCourt, however, delays and FAILS, leaves others with a mess to clean up and PROFITS through lawsuits and bankruptcies. He has proven to be the antithesis of progess and development.

Not MY hero.

The entire planning for Seaport has been a debacle. How could any developer get anything done in this city? The City does not make it easy to build especially when you’re able to continue to flip properties and make 15 or 30% without taking risk over 5-10 year span. It’s tough to justify Long-term investing and building in area with so much open space without some type of incentives from society.

Buffett is full of hot air. If he is so adamant about paying more taxes then why does he spend millions of Berkshire Hathway dollars to avoid paying more taxes?
I am all for Capitalism.......The problem is its over. We are heading for Fascism possibly totalitarianism. Bailouts and Stimulus money will continue to keep the Super Rich Elite in power and the Politicians will be there puppets controlling who gets the money and who doesn’t through policies & regulations. We are not in Capitalism anymore. With Interest rates at 0% they have destroyed the value of buying power for the average worker. So the question now is what is everything worth without price stability.

Let’s keep this stuff off this board. If you want to reply to the Buffet crap…… move it to the General Thread Open topic. If not who cares.

 

[Beton Brut]

Looks like Jamie got the Lautner house...

 

[shockingboston]

I think you are correct.

Here is a decent diagram, props to John Keith:

http://www.bostonreb.com/2008/05/the-beauty-that-is-seaport-square/

As for ownership, Seaport Square largely represents McCourt's former holdings across the board. I'd guess that even the existing Our Lady of Good Voyage parcel (building slated to be demolished) and the land occupied by the MBTA headhouse were both in McCourt's portfolio of land holdings. McCourt donated Childrens Museum park to the Childrens Museum on his way out.

Why are the residential buildings scattered throughout?

Wouldn’t it be better, if they dedicated one block or general connected area to residential? I would like to believe this would create more of a community feel and attract more long term residents. With the buildings being scattered, I think this layout would attract more seasonal renters, people looking for vacations homes or 2nd homes.

Long term residents would frequent the shops and retail in the area more often. A community would bring a lasting character to the area (i.e. community events, more people with a vested interest in the area, etc.)

 

[bostonbred]

IAM thinkin lETTs bee cLERE on fazi ism:

OUR MAYO RULES BOSTON!!!!

BOSTON RULES!!!!

 

[czsz]

Why are the residential buildings scattered throughout?

Wouldn’t it be better, if they dedicated one block or general connected area to residential? I would like to believe this would create more of a community feel and attract more long term residents. With the buildings being scattered, I think this layout would attract more seasonal renters, people looking for vacations homes or 2nd homes.

Long term residents would frequent the shops and retail in the area more often. A community would bring a lasting character to the area (i.e. community events, more people with a vested interest in the area, etc.)

For the most part they seem kept together. That's why there are several buildings designated "residential neighborhood" that are close to one another in the diagram.