Seaport Square (Formerly McCourt Seaport Parcels)

[Equilibria]

Negative development areas
North Station (Just doesn't feel like the old Boston)
Kenmore (Ditto)
Seaport/Fan Pier (should be Boston sports mecca area with Cubs neighborhood feel)
Columbus Ave (absolute Disgrace)
The Greenway (Poor Planning)
Downtown (looks like a warzone)
South Station/Tommy's Tower (can we get a 800FT building in the city)
The skyline looks very old and decreped
Chinatown (I actually miss the old 70's and 80's crazy place)


Postive Areas
North END (it still has the local shops but not the locals)
Backbay (always beautiful to walk through)
Boston Common/Fan Hall (Boston at it's Best)
South End (has cleaned up thanks to Northeastern)
Theater District (improving)

I agree with you on all the positives and most of the negatives. However, North Station and Kenmore are 2 impressive mass transit stations, and some of the nicest looking in a mostly underwhelming MBTA system. I've heard some people (perhaps including yourself) knocking the North Station area for not being grimy enough before, and I just don't see it. It was simply unpleasant to go to the Garden and the area around it before, and the new station is efficient and beautiful, an achievement for which the T doesn't get enough credit.

As for the Wrigley thing: I appreciate the vision, but as someone who lives in Chicago at the moment, Wrigleyville would be impossible to develop on the waterfront. Heck, even the Cubs can't develop any more of it in Wrigleyville. Good authentic neighborhoods take decades to develop, one small lot at a time. I don't know if Hynes and Fallon will do something nice in SBW, but I am very happy Fenway is in Kenmore and not in a sea of parking lots marking a failed "Ballpark Village", with no real transit access.

As for the tax breaks, I think we're jumping the gun a little. It's tax breaks, not a payout. I have no idea how this deal is structured, but I'll guess that the city has given up some portion of it's tax revenue on the site for some period of years (5 to 10). Since the land should be worth much more now than it was as parking, one would hope the city has only cut into that revenue increase to allow that increase to take place. They aren't losing money, they're making less so they'll make any at all (if I'm totally off-base, sorry about that).

Of course, if Boston didn't offer that deal, Burlington would, or Raleigh. I, for one, am happy to see something built here. It can only get better.

 

[TheRifleman]

I agree with you on all the positives and most of the negatives. However, North Station and Kenmore are 2 impressive mass transit stations, and some of the nicest looking in a mostly underwhelming MBTA system. I've heard some people (perhaps including yourself) knocking the North Station area for not being grimy enough before, and I just don't see it. It was simply unpleasant to go to the Garden and the area around it before, and the new station is efficient and beautiful, an achievement for which the T doesn't get enough credit.

As for the Wrigley thing: I appreciate the vision, but as someone who lives in Chicago at the moment, Wrigleyville would be impossible to develop on the waterfront. Heck, even the Cubs can't develop any more of it in Wrigleyville. Good authentic neighborhoods take decades to develop, one small lot at a time. I don't know if Hynes and Fallon will do something nice in SBW, but I am very happy Fenway is in Kenmore and not in a sea of parking lots marking a failed "Ballpark Village", with no real transit access.

As for the tax breaks, I think we're jumping the gun a little. It's tax breaks, not a payout. I have no idea how this deal is structured, but I'll guess that the city has given up some portion of it's tax revenue on the site for some period of years (5 to 10). Since the land should be worth much more now than it was as parking, one would hope the city has only cut into that revenue increase to allow that increase to take place. They aren't losing money, they're making less so they'll make any at all (if I'm totally off-base, sorry about that).

Of course, if Boston didn't offer that deal, Burlington would, or Raleigh. I, for one, am happy to see something built here. It can only get better.

Agree 100% about the Transit systems. I never said I didn't like the new garden. I said the area around it has not evolved very well.

Also concerning my vision about the Wrigley field type development towards the Seaport District, which should have planned a new underground transit system in the first step. The only way to justify this type of cost to the taxpayers is if the Seaport District could have generated significant amounts of unlimited tax revenue in the future. With Patriots Place and a New Fenway Park with a TON of Residential units built around it we really could have had something special and unique here. Kraft has the right vision for Patriots place but the Location for him SUCKS. It will be very difficult for him in the future to make Foxboro a destination type area especially when the Pats become mediocre team.

The first thing the city planners should have done for Seaport was to outline a draft for an expansion for a underground transit if this was even possible to dig underground. This automatically would make Seaport very desirable place in the future.

About jumping the gun on tax breaks. First off Vertex would have never left Mass. Right now their are too many Biotechs interwind with the unversities and are also competing for the talent coming out of the schools which will continue in this area until the Biosector changes.

I am very pissed off that we gave tax breaks to Liberty Mutual, Developer Joe Fallon, Evergreen, and now they want to build a Convention Center with 200 Million in tax dollars. This is how these LIBTARDS stay in power using taxpayers money to buy off the union votes so they can stay in POWER.

The Unions are 100% at fault to blame for all this theft. They deserve to lose their PENSIONS at this point for voting for this scum.

Liberty Mutual Tax Break really has me disgusted more than anything. 46.5 Million dollar break to a fucking insurance company that banks hundreds of millions in profits a MONTH.

"It's tax breaks, not a payout."
Ask yourself this if your a business owner. Why am I not getting taxbreaks as the city is actually creating more taxes

BID
Greenway Tax
Non-Profit Tax

Just shows how manipulated these political hacks are.

 

[tobyjug]

"Yesterday, developer John B. Hynes III said he has hired architects to design a pair of 20-story residential towers on Seaport Boulevard"

Could be worse. When seeking endearing mediocrity, one usually tasks children with the design work.

 

[BostonYoureMyHome]

The first thing the city planners should have done for Seaport was to outline a draft for an expansion for a underground transit if this was even possible to dig underground. This automatically would make Seaport very desirable place in the future.

Liberty Mutual Tax Break really has me disgusted more than anything. 46.5 Million dollar break to a fucking insurance company that banks hundreds of millions in profits a MONTH.

"It's tax breaks, not a payout."
Ask yourself this if your a business owner. Why am I not getting taxbreaks as the city is actually creating more taxes

BID
Greenway Tax
Non-Profit Tax

Just shows how manipulated these political hacks are.

This is a sad but true statement...unfortunately, insurance companies, banks, and the oil companies run the country...

As for the expansion of transit in the Seaport, there is the Silver Line and plenty of buses above ground. The Silver Line runs right through South Station, but just not seem to have been accepted fully yet by many other than those headed to Logan. Once some of this buildup occurs, they are going to need to run more buses...

 

[SeamusMcFly]

I have to say.... I'm fairly impressed and enthused by Elkus' design concept for these 2 buildings. I have a feeling some on this board may well like the proposal as well when it becomes public.

Whether the actual matches the proposal of course remains an unknown.

<Cue eerie music.)

 

[palindrome]

tease.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Sorry. Need to keep my job after all.

I am serious about it looking like a potential winner, with a significant nod to street level interaction.

Not just in comparison to what we have become used to in the Seaport, but this is a step forward in overall mixed use development in this city.

If it happens, and ends up anything like the concept.

Sorry, but it requires that disclaimer. We are in Boston.

 

[Shepard]

Can you remind us which two buildings these will be? Which parcels?

 

[palindrome]

Sorry. Need to keep my job after all.

I am serious about it looking like a potential winner, with a significant nod to street level interaction.

Not just in comparison to what we have become used to in the Seaport, but this is a step forward in overall mixed use development in this city.

If it happens, and ends up anything like the concept.

Sorry, but it requires that disclaimer. We are in Boston.

lol only playing with you. You have me excited though!

 

[Sicilian]

^shepard

Not sure how much Mr. McFly can weigh in.

My recollection is that the buildings in Phase One are on the parcels immediately abutting the Courthouse and Fan Pier.

As I understand the plan, there is a smaller building near the Barking Crab, and next to that are the two larger buildings. That smaller building is what the City refers to as an Innovation Lab, essentially something negotiated as part of a mitigation package normally through which civic spaces (i.e. schools, police, fire, etc.) are created.

There are some ancillary projects in Phase One. The Our Lady of Good Voyage chapel is being relocated to a new building on the other side of Seaport Blvd. abutting Wharf buildings. A small recreational park (half-court basketball, etc.) will be constructed in Phase One on the empty parcel along West Service Road.

Disclaimer: I'm 99% sure about the above, not 100%.

 

[whighlander]

Great Opportunity to refocus Seaport Sq. to become "the rest of the expensive part" of the Innovation District -- Fallon has grabbed what amounts to the Tech Square in Cambridge (i.e. the most visible part of the whole of Kendall / Cambridge Center)

Seaport Sq. can serve the roll of the major supporting cast to the Vertex stars sitting right on the water

the rest of the annonymous cast (such as where Vertex is now0 can be supplied by the old wharf buildings near to Gillete and the Fort Point Channel

By the time the Vertex lease is up in 2025 or so -- the old parking lots and warehouses -- just like Kendall's old wasteland circa 1970 were transformed in 40 years -- can become another key Innovation site -- Boston (B+C) IS the Hub of Global Innovation in science / technology

Flex on!! -- you won the real cup that matters

 

[Shepard]

Love the enthusiasm. Funny you should mention the old warehouses - over the last few years there has been a lot of "industrial gentrification" south of Mass Ave along Albany Street - very noticeable. I wouldn't rule out a similar trajectory for the more industrial areas of the Seaport including the Marine Industrial Park.

 

[whighlander]

Agree

In fact Cambridge near MIT is behaving a bit like Vegas

the old (circa 1990s) Analog Devices MEMS fab is being re-purposed into a 2nd or 3rd Novartis campus

Also included in the proposed project is the famous MIT Barto Building -- the birthplace Whirlwind the "Adam/" of modern computers (circa 1950)

 

[Sicilian]

Interesting article, unfortunately a subscription is required to read it:

http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/news148296.html

Commercial Interests
For Seaport Square, The Future Is Now
Why John Hynes Must Dig Himself Out Of His Own Holes To Get Seaport Square Running

By Scott Van Voorhis
Banker & Tradesman Columnist

For John Hynes, one of Boston’s boldest developers, it is fast becoming time to either put up or shut up.

[continues]

 

[whighlander]

You couldn't be more correct regarding the Pols vs. Hospitals/Universities dichotomy to Boston. The Pols have always kept Boston back from being a world class city. The Universities/Hospitals have always kept it from sinking into a Newark.

I am fed up with the underclass of "leaders" with which Boston has been burdened. They are bloodsuckers holding back progess in the city that could greatly transform the world.

Boston is a tale of two cities. I truly wish one half would take it over and be a beacon to the rest of the world. If that sounds too elitist to some, so be it. Results count.

Imagine what could have been built in Boston if the Bulgers, Finnerans, Harold Browns, Meninos, Curleys, Turners, McCourts, Fallons, etc. never existed.

Shmess--- can we replace the cliche rhetoric with reality -- "The Pols have always kept Boston back from being a world class city. The Universities/Hospitals have always kept it from sinking into a Newark."

Boston -- aka Greater Boston is World Class -- could it be better sure -- but part of what you rail against is what makes Boston a pleasant, unique, if occasionally infuriating place to live work and visit

Think back a few decades -- had the polls and others not stood in the way of "progress" -- much of what we find pleasant and interesting in Boston would have been replaced by more of what we dislike such as Charles River Park and Government Center

Because of Boston's status in the world -- what is done here is much more visible than had the same occurred in Newark or Sheboygen -- so yes it is worth commenting on what was done in the past to make sure that the bad is not repeated -- but it does no good to try to wish it away

Could the Pru, City Hall, "the Darth Vader Bldg" or [name your favorite bad building] have been done better -- certainly -- how will they be looked upon 50 years from now -- we'll have to see what replaces them or how they evolve to know that answer

 

[shmessy]

Shmess--- can we replace the cliche rhetoric with reality -- "The Pols have always kept Boston back from being a world class city. The Universities/Hospitals have always kept it from sinking into a Newark."

Boston -- aka Greater Boston is World Class -- could it be better sure -- but part of what you rail against is what makes Boston a pleasant, unique, if occasionally infuriating place to live work and visit

Think back a few decades -- had the polls and others not stood in the way of "progress" -- much of what we find pleasant and interesting in Boston would have been replaced by more of what we dislike such as Charles River Park and Government Center

Because of Boston's status in the world -- what is done here is much more visible than had the same occurred in Newark or Sheboygen -- so yes it is worth commenting on what was done in the past to make sure that the bad is not repeated -- but it does no good to try to wish it away

Could the Pru, City Hall, "the Darth Vader Bldg" or [name your favorite bad building] have been done better -- certainly -- how will they be looked upon 50 years from now -- we'll have to see what replaces them or how they evolve to know that answer

Interesting that you use Charles River Park, the Pru Center, City Hall and Government Center as examples. They were all urban planning projects rammed through by, wait for it.....pols (and politically connected developers like Rappaport).....and all of them - 40+ years on are still trying to be gussied up to become actually livable. The analogy of pigs and lipstick comes to mind.

But you narrow my point too much. It's not just about architecture. It's about sustainable economic development. Another well-connected kid aiming to become a political hack, personal chauffeur or union figurehead doesn't guarantee a bright economic future for Boston.

It's the entrepeneurs, science students and (let's face it) nerds who may make Boston a world economic leader in the future. That won't be achieved by producing more coat holders, door openers or political hacks.

Boston's culture must continue to change if it wants to be a world leader in the future. The window of the era of being able to get by with the Menino's, Finneran's, Day-Hicks, Dappers, Bulgers, etc. is fast closing.

In the words of Thomas Friedman, the world is flat today. Boston's political chicanery won't be quaint or cute anymore in the future. It will be economically suicidal.

 

[whighlander]

Interesting that you use Charles River Park, the Pru Center, City Hall and Government Center as examples. They were all urban planning projects rammed through by, wait for it.....pols (and politically connected developers like Rappaport).....and all of them - 40+ years on are still trying to be gussied up to become actually livable. The analogy of pigs and lipstick comes to mind.

But you narrow my point too much. It's not just about architecture. It's about sustainable economic development. Another well-connected kid aiming to become a political hack, personal chauffeur or union figurehead doesn't guarantee a bright economic future for Boston.

It's the entrepeneurs, science students and (let's face it) nerds who may make Boston a world economic leader in the future. That won't be achieved by producing more coat holders, door openers or political hacks.

Boston's culture must continue to change if it wants to be a world leader in the future. The window of the era of being able to get by with the Menino's, Finneran's, Day-Hicks, Dappers, Bulgers, etc. is fast closing.

In the words of Thomas Friedman, the world is flat today. Boston's political chicanery won't be quaint or cute anymore in the future. It will be economically suicidal.

Shmess - actually I didn't include Pru for a reason -- it works!

it took several iterations to go from the train yards and then the Pike with a phallus to the Pru / Copley integrated development of today -- but over about a human lifetime it happened

As for the rest of what you said -- I mostly agree except I'd leave off Friedman who for a city planner, transportation expert and economist is an OK reporter

The world is no more flat today than it was around 1900 (the famous Keynes quote about ordering things and having them delivered to your doodstep " The inhabitant of London could order by telephone, sipping his morning tea in bed, the various products of the whole earth, in such quantity as he might see fit, and reasonably expect their early delivery upon his doorstep ") or even at the time of Hadrian when you could write a check in Londinium and have it cashed in a bank in Caesarea Maritima to pay for a shipment originating on the Black Sea coast and destined for Ostia

Contrary to Friedman -- the only difference between then and now relates to the velocity of communications of information and objects -- until the mid 19th Century the two were inextricably bound together -- now they are independent -- with raw information increasingly available everywhere "instantly"

 

[shmessy]

The world is no more flat today than it was around 1900 (the famous Keynes quote about ordering things and having them delivered to your doodstep " The inhabitant of London could order by telephone, sipping his morning tea in bed, the various products of the whole earth, in such quantity as he might see fit, and reasonably expect their early delivery upon his doorstep ") or even at the time of Hadrian when you could write a check in Londinium and have it cashed in a bank in Caesarea Maritima to pay for a shipment originating on the Black Sea coast and destined for Ostia

Contrary to Friedman -- the only difference between then and now relates to the velocity of communications of information and objects -- until the mid 19th Century the two were inextricably bound together -- now they are independent -- with raw information increasingly available everywhere "instantly"

I disagree with this point.

There are middle class population burgeoning in Brazil, India, China, etc.

Tell your point to the Phillipino banker holding your mortgage or the South Korean exchange student laughing at how slow our internet is over here in the US or to the Indian engineer disgusted with how much slower and pathetic the Green Line is compared to the Bangalore metro.

You would never imagine that in 1900.

Your point that "information" is the only thing that has evened out across the world is 100% lacking.

Infrastructure, medical services, education, democracy, food safety, etc. - Quality of life is increasingly evening out.

 

[whighlander]

I disagree with this point.

There are middle class population burgeoning in Brazil, India, China, etc.

Tell your point to the Phillipino banker holding your mortgage or the South Korean exchange student laughing at how slow our internet is over here in the US or to the Indian engineer disgusted with how much slower and pathetic the Green Line is compared to the Bangalore metro.

You would never imagine that in 1900.

Your point that "information" is the only thing that has evened out across the world is 100% lacking.

Infrastructure, medical services, education, democracy, food safety, etc. - Quality of life is increasingly evening out.

Au contraire mes amis -- for many many years the US was a net capital importer -- things such as the Transcontinental Railroads and such were financed by British and Continental Bankers

Again continuing the 1918 Keynes quote about Europe before the war [WWi] " he could at the same moment and by the same means adventure his wealth in the natural resources and new enterprises of any quarter of the world, and share, without exertion or even trouble, in their prospective fruits and advantages; or he could decide to couple the security of his fortunes with the good faith of the townspeople of any substantial municipality in any continent that fancy or information might recommend. He could secure forthwith, if he wished it, cheap and comfortable means of transit to any country or climate without passport or other formality, could despatch his servant to the neighboring office of a bank for such supply of the precious metals as might seem convenient, and could then proceed abroad to foreign quarters, without knowledge of their religion, language, or customs, bearing coined wealth upon his person, and would consider himself greatly aggrieved and much surprised at the least interference. But, most important of all, he regarded this state of affairs as normal, certain, and permanent, except in the direction of further improvement, and any deviation from it as aberrant, scandalous, and avoidable. The projects and politics of militarism and imperialism, of racial and cultural rivalries, of monopolies, restrictions, and exclusion, which were to play the serpent to this paradise, were little more than the amusements of his daily newspaper, and appeared to exercise almost no influence at all on the ordinary course of social and economic life, the internationalization of which was nearly complete in practice. "

http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/Keynes/kynsCP2.html



Now your point about evening out is true to a certain extent -- the globe girdling class sees pretty much the same airport terminals, hotel lobbies, office buildings and conference centers excepting only minor adjustments for climate or local architectural styles. Getting off an international flight anywhere is essentially a unique experience -- but the uniqueness only comes from the fact that the rest of the world imported the US. However once you get outside of the precincts favored by the global traveler -- things change.

Take India for example -- while the best of what you can find in Bangalore (aka Bengaloru) is as good as anything here or in London, Berlin, etc. -- and there are as many "middle-class' people in India as there are people in the U.S. -- nearly 3/4 of the citizens of India are living at the level of subsistence agriculture -- with virtually no cash (<$0.50 / day average). In the "West" we left that stage behind in the mid 19th Century. the same is true of China and its even worse in most of Africa. In point of fact there are still several Billion people in many parts of the world who not only don't have an ipad -- they have never even made a phone call.

 

[TheRifleman]

Went to the Childrens Museum this weekend.
Standing on the Childrens Musuem pier looking towards the city, I thought IC, IP, Atlantic Wharf and the Federal Reserve buildings really stood out looking over the bridge on a very positive note.
Looking towards the city of Boston it's like saying anything is possible.

Then I looked back to the Seaport District. Moakley Courthouse, Fan Pier, Box Condos & restaurants in the area. I'm not sure what the city planning agency is thinking at this point.
Looking towards at the Seaport district evolving, it's like WTF.

I was very impressed with the Childrens Museum. I think it's awesome for Children also a Great location.