Seaport Transportation

Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

BussesAin'tTrains said:
Not for rail no. Some people refer to the MBTA busses to be the "yellow line"
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I would argue most people think of the subway/bus lines as they appear on the MBTA map. In that case, adding a yellow line would not interfere with anything else, since bus routes are portrayed as brown on the MBTA map. Though to be fair, the Orange Line is a bit on the yellow side, so they might have to darken that up for a Yellow Line to stick out.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

FenwayResident said:
I would argue most people think of the subway/bus lines as they appear on the MBTA map. In that case, adding a yellow line would not interfere with anything else, since bus routes are portrayed as brown on the MBTA map. Though to be fair, the Orange Line is a bit on the yellow side, so they might have to darken that up for a Yellow Line to stick out.
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No arguments from me. Some people took to referring to a future Urban Ring as the Yellow Line, so it's not as though it's "taken" by the bus system.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

BussesAin'tTrains said:
No arguments from me. Some people took to referring to a future Urban Ring as the Yellow Line, so it's not as though it's "taken" by the bus system.
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I definitely picked up on this. The UR is usually drawn yellow.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

fattony said:
I definitely picked up on this. The UR is usually drawn yellow.
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UR is drawn as yellow mostly because it's the last rainbow color left. I don't think it was on anything official ever, although I could be wrong. The UR will in all likelihood end up as a combo of the Green Line and Silver Line/BRT.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

I think this points to a bigger problem, namely that when you differentiate lines by color, you run out quickly. I say take the naming system for the Green Line and bring it to the whole system. Then you can sue color to indicate the type of transit rather than where it goes.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

MBTAddict said:
I think this points to a bigger problem, namely that when you differentiate lines by color, you run out quickly. I say take the naming system for the Green Line and bring it to the whole system. Then you can sue color to indicate the type of transit rather than where it goes.
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There are plenty of colors left, just not primary "rainbow" colors. If we built a Yellow Line, the next subway line after that would have to be Gold, Black, Brown, Teal, etc.

That being said, I would completely support a transition to a numbers/letters based naming scheme a la NYC's subway system.
 
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Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

MBTAddict said:
I think this points to a bigger problem, namely that when you differentiate lines by color, you run out quickly. I say take the naming system for the Green Line and bring it to the whole system. Then you can sue color to indicate the type of transit rather than where it goes.
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LA ran out of colors after opening their own BRT Silver Line, so they started assigning names. It works pretty well.

Though that might go out the window once they link all the light rail lines in the county via a new downtown subway. Gold to Pasadena will become Blue, and the Gold line in East LA will swallow the Expo Line.

It'll be really fun to see how that turns out from a branding perspective.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

Brown and Black probably would not be used. I you want to know why, try to imagine what the reaction would be if the MBTA and/or MassDOT announced the new Brown Line through Dorchester and Mattapan tomorrow.

I also don't think that the Track 61 service would get a whole new colour. It's a one stop ride, not a major addition to the transit system. If it was coloured, then maybe it would be orange and called the Convention Center High Speed Line or something. Most likely, it will get its own special name like the CapeFlyer did.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

The EGE said:
There's a substantial concrete structure underground, so they may well have just paved over the incline when they extended the subway west. However, whatever structure may exist is facing the wrong way - you'd have to rip it out completely and rebuild to get cras going eastbound on Boylston.
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It's a utility room that fills up the subsurface part of the incline, but utility rooms can be moved. All they did was chop the top of the portal off in '42 when it was sealed and the E was re-routed through the new Huntington tunnel. It's still there right under the grates, which ventilate whatever electrical substation is stuffed in that room.

As noted, doesn't face the right direction. You'd have to do something with the Post Office Square tunnel provision on the wall opposite this incline to get there. But Stuart St. is as big a nightmare as any other downtown street to cut-and-cover under, so any which way you're spending a billion dollars from the uncapped overruns entailed by the spaghetti utility relocations, the "WTF is that???" Indian burial grounds and pirate ships and god knows what else is buried in the landfill, and the unforeseen shit-happens mitigation around building foundations like the Copley elevators. They blew their chance at ever getting the Stuart flank by not acting on it either in first half of the 20th century or when we were recklessly wiping half the city off the map during urban renewal.


Stick to the old tunnel...stick to it as rigidly as possible no matter how imperfect the routing. The only tunneling you're going to be able to do without problems is from Eliot Norton Park to the Pike where all that land was nuked clean in the mid/late-60's. It is the only place in the Back Bay you can do it cheaper than Red-Blue's price tag and have reasonable chance of getting it added to the project priorities list for the next decade.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

Sorry F-line, EGE, and Shepherd, but you lost me: what existing tunnel solves what problem for the Track 61 line? ( or was that a "tangent" line ;-)
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

Arlington said:
Sorry F-line, EGE, and Shepherd, but you lost me: what existing tunnel solves what problem for the Track 61 line? ( or was that a "tangent" line ;-)
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The "existing tunnel" being the Tremont Street tunnel out of Boylston Station which can be utilized as the start of a GLX from the central subway to SS and BBY (not to mention Washington Street), which would render this DMU shuttle hob-knob pointless.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

BussesAin'tTrains said:
The "existing tunnel" being the Tremont Street tunnel out of Boylston Station which can be utilized as the start of a GLX from the central subway to SS and BBY (not to mention Washington Street), which would render this DMU shuttle hob-knob pointless.
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To be fair, I don't see how you could use the Tremont St. Tunnel to create a one-seat ride between the convention center and the Back Bay.

Though the two-seat ride of Copley-Park/Boylston-World Trade Center would probably be enough, and still be easier than the current set-up.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

novitiate said:
To be fair, I don't see how you could use the Tremont St. Tunnel to create a one-seat ride between the convention center and the Back Bay.

Though the two-seat ride of Copley-Park/Boylston-World Trade Center would probably be enough, and still be easier than the current set-up.
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If you go back a page or two and read a possible build sequence F-Line posted a while ago in one of the Transit Pitches I reposted here you actually can use the Tremont Street tunnel as a connector for what would become a direct routing between Seaport, South Station and Back Bay, LMA, and beyond. Lots of new tunneling would be necessary, but the point being that you use the existing tunnels in the very-hard-to-tunnel areas of town to get you to the less-hard-to-tunnel areas. That's what the Tremont Street Tunnel gets you, a route out of the tangle of Downtown streets to an easier routing to the areas that desperately need connections to other parts of the system.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

Arlington:
In brief: how to bring GL into South Station and beyond to the transit way? F Line sees major cost savings by goof south into the tremont street tunnel and burrowing a bit further to the pike, then following the NEC ROW essentially all the way to the transit way. This avoids tunneling the more direct way under Essex, which by any estimation is a mess. I'd suggested a surface route on essex with portals - equally tricky I realize. I mentioned a portal that used to exist near today's Four Seasons to wonder if it could be retrofitted for this purpose...
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

BussesAin'tTrains said:
If you go back a page or two and read a possible build sequence F-Line posted a while ago in one of the Transit Pitches I reposted here you actually can use the Tremont Street tunnel as a connector for what would become a direct routing between Seaport, South Station and Back Bay, LMA, and beyond. Lots of new tunneling would be necessary, but the point being that you use the existing tunnels in the very-hard-to-tunnel areas of town to get you to the less-hard-to-tunnel areas. That's what the Tremont Street Tunnel gets you, a route out of the tangle of Downtown streets to an easier routing to the areas that desperately need connections to other parts of the system.
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Well in that case (if I'm understanding it right) the line doesn't use the Tremont tunnel at all, but instead an entirely new green line branch along the NEC/I-90 flowing into the E branch. (And potentially also the D) And yes, that does solve the problem I mentioned...

Now, building that and not tying into the Tremont St. Subway would be silly because of the other benefits... (esp. to Washington St.) so maybe it's just quibbling.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

novitiate said:
Well in that case (if I'm understanding it right) the line doesn't use the Tremont tunnel at all, but instead an entirely new green line branch along the NEC/I-90 flowing into the E branch. (And potentially also the D) And yes, that does solve the problem I mentioned...

Now, building that and not tying into the Tremont St. Subway would be silly because of the other benefits... (esp. to Washington St.) so maybe it's just quibbling.
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The Tremont subway runs from Government Center to Eliot Norton Park (nee Pleasant St portal). Right now the green line only uses the section from Government Center to Boylston, where it hangs a right and heads down the Boylston subway. F-Line's proposal would use the whole thing, and extend it along the Pike to South Station. (ideally a new tunnel would also connect to the E near Back Bay and dig across the Pike to Washington St). Right before it ends its equipped with a full flying junction, so that plus avoiding the Boylston curve makes it a great piece of unused infrastructure.
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

davem said:
The Tremont Subway runs from Government Center to Eliot Norton Park. Right now they only use the section from Government Center to Boylston, where it hangs a right and heads down the boylston tunnel. F-Lines proposal would use the whole thing, and extend it (ideally to south station, washington st, and to connect with the E near Back Bay)
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I think I'm not understanding this- all I'm saying is, if a train runs from Back Bay to the Piers Transitway (crappy diagram below), doesn't it never touch the existing Tremont tunnel at all, but only a new section near TMC? I actually find this proposal really interesting so I want to make sure I'm understanding it right...
Code: 
              BOYLSTON
(to Copley) <-----|
                  |
          Tremont |                    /------------> (to WTC)
           Street |          South    /
           Subway |          Station |
                  |                  |
                 / \                 |
       TMC (new)/   \                |
               /-----\               |
              /       \              |
(to BBY) <----         \-------------/
                             \
                             |
                             v (to Dudley)
 
Re: Track 61 (Seaport - Back Bay DMU)

"Let's take the 'Rooney' to the Convention Center instead of the Silver bus."
 
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