southwest expressway...

[deh74]

would the proposewd southwest expressway through boston have made it so that Boston is less of a traffic nightmare today? or would it be the same or worse? also what other effects would this have on the city?

 

[ant8904]

The commonly known paradox in these areas tends to say increase capacity ironically increase congestion.

But as I think about it, it's more complicated than that. The paradox is triggered that the increased capacity also leads to increased demand. If the demand (and optimization) remains the same with a redistribution of traffic, so means the congestion will be reduced.

Also looking north, one can look at the I-93 and Route 1 (Northeast Expressway). Meanwhile points south relies on only the Southeast Expressway. My understanding is points north have a much better level of congestion than the Southeast where it commonly get strained despite of time outside of rush hour.

However, that is not a fair comparison. One can easily point that points south have to deal with much more demand from different areas - like traffic to and from the Cape even weekends (or especially) while points North have no equivalent. Also the existence of such a highway would exist in such a vacuum. It would change traffic patterns and living patterns in a way that the traffic we see today might have never develop in that form if the highway existed (like homes might have develop to take advantage of the Southwest Expressway - that would also means more demand too).

Keeping everything else constant (including politics, living patterns, transit options, and development history that occurred partially trigged by the lack of its existence) and just adding the highway, then obviously congestion would decrease. But adding the highway would affect in more ways than just more capacity to the highway network as a whole and a new high speed route for the nearby vicinity. Development would have change that would affect real life level of demand. So would the living styles of the people and the way Boston would have built other infrastructure for this city.

In short, the question is more difficult to tell than one would assume.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Building highways brings traffic, not alleviates it. The Central Artery was so choked partly because it had to take the traffic that the canceled Inner Belt would have handled. But if the Inner Belt was built that would have only moved the traffic around and into Cambridge making things shitty everywhere.

 

[statler]

I'd love to see a photo essay of all the homes and areas that would have been destroyed if this was ever built.

 

[massmotorist]

I think ant is on the right path here. You can't look at this question in a vacuum. A counterfactual in which the Southwest Expressway was built is one in which the Inner Belt and lots of other planned highways would have been built. And it's probably one in which a lot of transit wasn't built. The scenario would make Boston an entirely different place from what it is today. Whether in a good way or a bad way, who knows. But the effects on traffic would be ancillary to the overall effect on the city.

 

[omaja]

And it's probably one in which a lot of transit wasn't built.

I don't see how that would be the case since the vast majority of Boston's transit system as we know it today was already in place before the Southwest Expressway was killed... notable exceptions being the Red Line extended from Harvard to Alewife, Red Line from Quincy Center to Braintree, Orange Line from Sullivan to Oak Grove - though none of these would have been as a result of the SW Expressway's cancellation.

 

[deh74]

is it possile we'd still have the washington el?

 

[novitiate]

is it possile we'd still have the washington el?

Arguably, not building the southwest expressway kept the El around longer- if it had been built, I think what the plan was to have the Orange Line routed down alongside the new highway and going off somewhere on the Needham line. (Not sure what the plan was for other commuter rail/Amtrak- I want to say Fairmount though)

 

[massmotorist]

I don't see how that would be the case since the vast majority of Boston's transit system as we know it today was already in place before the Southwest Expressway was killed... notable exceptions being the Red Line extended from Harvard to Alewife, Red Line from Quincy Center to Braintree, Orange Line from Sullivan to Oak Grove - though none of these would have been as a result of the SW Expressway's cancellation.

I was referring to the projects you mentioned, and also the Southwest Corridor and various commuter rail expansions and preservation. A lot of dollars and transportation planning was shifted from highways to transit in the 1970's.

And the Southwest Corridor might not have had rail at all... that's a critical part of the NEC. Maybe I'm jaded because I grew up right near the unfinished 128/95 cloverleaf, but I think Boston would be a radically different place.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

From what I've read the Southwest Corridor was always going to have the Orange Line running along it one way or another. This idea was actually first proposed in the 1930s when limited access highways were being developed (I saw early plans for, I think, Detroit freeways with mass transit in the middle).

Keep in mind that the MTA (pre-MBTA) had planned as far back as 1945 to relocate the Washington St El along the Boston and Providence ROW out to Needham and Hyde Park. Building the highway came later and the two ideas were combined.

 

[Charlie_mta]

I'd like to see the Orange Line rails in the SW corridor converted to Amtrak and/or commuter rail. This would be possible if the Orange Line were rerouted onto Washington Street in a tunnel through the South End to Dudley Sqaure. Doing this would restore heavy rail transit to Roxbury, and add capacity to the the NE high speed rail corridor and commuter rail lines.

 

[HenryAlan]

I think ant is on the right path here. You can't look at this question in a vacuum. A counterfactual in which the Southwest Expressway was built is one in which the Inner Belt and lots of other planned highways would have been built. And it's probably one in which a lot of transit wasn't built. The scenario would make Boston an entirely different place from what it is today. Whether in a good way or a bad way, who knows. But the effects on traffic would be ancillary to the overall effect on the city.

Such an outcome would have turned Boston in to Louisville.

The red represents surface lots. A massive expansion of the capacity to bring cars in to Boston would have required a massive expansion of parking. No thanks, we already have too much parking.

And Louisville looks the way it does because their version of the Southwest Expressway wasn't cancelled.

 

[Kahta]

The SW expressway plans called for a transit line in the same right of way.

If the SW expressway was built and the parking spaces were capped, as was done in the 1970s, the impact on traffic would have been to reduce congestion because there simply wouldn't have been enough parking spaces in the city to hold any additional cars driving into the city.

And if the inner belt had been built, it's likely that the big dig would have been simply replacing the central artery with an at-grade boulevard.

 

[Kahta]

Also, a fair portion of the SW expressway right of way was cleared prior to the cancellation of the project. the 1978 photos have some good detail on this too.

http://www.historicaerials.com/aeri....320991268389&lon=-71.1003208925779&year=1971

 

[datadyne007]

The SW expressway plans called for a transit line in the same right of way.

If the SW expressway was built and the parking spaces were capped, as was done in the 1970s, the impact on traffic would have been to reduce congestion because there simply wouldn't have been enough parking spaces in the city to hold any additional cars driving into the city.

And if the inner belt had been built, it's likely that the big dig would have been simply replacing the central artery with an at-grade boulevard.

For reference: http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=144026&postcount=162

 

[Matthew]

I concur with Henry. The cap is a political limitation. It can disappear easily, given enough political pressure.

 

[JonFrum]

Such an outcome would have turned Boston in to Louisville.

The red represents surface lots. A massive expansion of the capacity to bring cars in to Boston would have required a massive expansion of parking. No thanks, we already have too much parking.

And Louisville looks the way it does because their version of the Southwest Expressway wasn't cancelled.

I-95 was intended to bring traffic through Boston as much as too it. They're called interstate highways for a reason. The shortest route between two points is a straight line. Forcing north-south traffic around Boston on 128 was an inefficient way to move traffic around. It also saved big strips of Boston and Cambridge from being paved overe, but that's another issue. The way this topic is discussed, you'd think no one ever drove the Central Artery without getting off in downtown Boston and parking somewhere. Many people would have used the SWE and the loop to get from south of Boston to points north. If you live in Boston and never travel further than the T will take you, it may not occur to you that there are people who actually make such trips every day, and have absolutely no interest in stopping in the city.

 

[statler]

If you live in the suburbs only drive in to the city to work and play you may not realize there are people who actually live there who don't want highways running through their neighborhood, no matter how convenient it may be for people just passing through.

 

[Kahta]

For reference: http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=144026&postcount=162

I've got the 1962 master highway plans as a coffee table book-- I've posted the pictures somewhere.

If you live in the suburbs only drive in to the city to work and play you may not realize there are people who actually live there who don't want highways running through their neighborhood, no matter how convenient it may be for people just passing through.

Cities are for more than the people that live there, highways are part of the compromise.

I concur with Henry. The cap is a political limitation. It can disappear easily, given enough political pressure.

Other older cities with very expensive land didn't have block upon block of land demolished for parking.

 

[Ron Newman]

Why didn't Louisville build a few garages instead of tearing down all those buildings for surface lots?