Suffolk County Courthouse Discussion | 3 Pemberton Square | Government Center

[cca]

We seem to be playing Godless heathen/s today; This might be the one case where absence of evidence turns out to be evidence of absence. Everything everyone is talking about here was studied or tried. Hvac, everything. Stop downplaying the renovation until you get the facts. Until that happens, i'll continue to side with the 'this building could kill people,' approach.

Buildings don't kills people.

Lack of maintenance kills people.

 

[CSTH]

My prescription:

1. Build a new suffolk country courthouse on top of / behind the suffolk county jail on Nashua st.

2. Renovate the existing tower by adding a new campanile, and integrate by adding new vertical circulation & HVAC in the new vertical volume.

Programming can be .. whatever. Probably a government office though, considering. Or may be a hotel. Definitely a sweet penthouse residence up top though....

There was a similar project at the Thurgood Marshall courthouse in Manhattan a few years ago - there was no new volume added, but IIRC they cannibalized an elevator shaft to provide improved HVAC circulation.

http://www.architecturalrecord.com/articles/7418-thurgood-marshall-u-s-courthouse

Here's my quick powerpoint rendering of what I have in mind:

(Also: 1-2-3 Center Plaza is the worst...)

 

[TomOfBoston]

If there is the will and the $$ I have no doubt this building can be saved, rehabbed, reused, etc, with finishes left intact or adapted. I've always disliked this building because it was the first to over-take the golden State House dome on the "Hill". I've also loved it because it was one of the first, visible signs from several vantage points of Boston's slow awakening from it's semi-depressed state through the thirties. It can and should be preserved...a/c units removed and the whole thing spiffed up!

Correction: semi depressed state through 1965.

 

[Hubman]

Ugg. Those renderings butcher the tower. I'd be happy if the extension got built nearby-maybe on center plaza?

 

[HalcyonEra]

Buildings don't kills people.

Lack of maintenance kills people.

Ever hear of mesothelioma?

 

[CSTH]

Ugg. Those renderings butcher the tower. I'd be happy if the extension got built nearby-maybe on center plaza?

Well ... they're really more like massing models than renderings, but I appreciate the feedback

In my mind / imagination it's really about framing the plaza (which i always envision in a golden future where CP has been deleted) as much as anything...

anyway, personal fantasy,...

 

[cca]

Ever hear of mesothelioma?

Yup ... PEOPLE made choices that turned out to be bad. PEOPLE choose not to rectify dangerous conditions for cost reasons. Put it this way. When you sue for damages you sue PEOPLE, not the building.

cca

 

[Arlington]

I like the idea of adding an external circulation and utility core, but suspect that economics just don't work: isn't such a core (as CSTH and others propose grafting on) basically most of the cost of a new building?

A modern core of stairs, Elevator, plumbing, HVAC, electrical..that's the expensive stuff...the building around it is mostly empty box with a façade.

So rather than graft an expensive core on a building that'd have to be carefully redone, I'd favor building a new courthouse on City Hall Plaza and then sell the old one for whatever the market will bear (and maybe it becomes residential, maybe it gets dynamited)

A new one on City Hall Plaza could have modern, ADA flows and security on lower levels for all the many users whose flows need to be (ideally) kept apart.

 

[HalcyonEra]

Yup ... PEOPLE made choices that turned out to be bad. PEOPLE choose not to rectify dangerous conditions for cost reasons. Put it this way. When you sue for damages you sue PEOPLE, not the building.

cca

Sure, and I guarantee you that there are plenty of products in the marketplace today which are deemed safe but are not. Just like with asbestos.

If a building is functionally obsolete for whatever reason, or contains lord knows what carcinogens, it is imperative that the owner remediates the issues or disposes of the property even if it is a "loss" to the architecture crowd that like to jerk off to it because it represents some gilded age in their minds. I presume that the state owns the building and therefore in no way should the state should waste public funds to resolve those issues unless it is fiscally responsible to do so - see Middlesex Courthouse as a comparison.

 

[Hubman]

Well ... they're really more like massing models than renderings, but I appreciate the feedback

In my mind / imagination it's really about framing the plaza (which i always envision in a golden future where CP has been deleted) as much as anything...

anyway, personal fantasy,...

Sorry-massing models.

 

[akmags]

Ever hear of mesothelioma?

You do understand that asbestos is comes in multiple forms and generally is not a hazard to ones health unless disturbed, right?

In most of these older buildings it is in the form of window sealant, floor tiles, insulation (most common on older piping), mastic. All of which will not cause any harm unless it is physically disturbed and goes airborne -- which is why areas are environmentally contained during removal. Even then, most of them contain other materials and only a small percentage of asbestos.

People should be more concerned about mold.

 

[bigpicture7]

You do understand that asbestos is comes in multiple forms and generally is not a hazard to ones health unless disturbed, right?

In most of these older buildings it is in the form of window sealant, floor tiles, insulation (most common on older piping), mastic. All of which will not cause any harm unless it is physically disturbed and goes airborne -- which is why areas are environmentally contained during removal. Even then, most of them contain other materials and only a small percentage of asbestos.

People should be more concerned about mold.

Exactly. The best way to deal with asbestos is simply to abate it incrementally over time as areas of the building are renovated. When an area of the building is emptied out for renovation anyway, the area can be environmentally sealed, abatement takes place, then the rest of the renovation proceeds. Over 7 years we abated an entire 200,000 sf building incrementally in this manner.


Now, if over several decades there is no renovation work going on at the building in general, then maybe that points to a lack of periodic maintenance and thus speaks to the larger issue being discussed here. But in MOST adequately funded situations, even a building with a modest maintenance budget will likely be ripping out old carpets or floor tiles, replacing drop ceiling tiles, replacing windows, and painting at some < 2 decade periodicity....and so when such refresh work is scheduled, just do the abatement up front. A 10,000 sq ft office area took about 1 week to abate (this included windows and floor tiles/mastic, and pipe insulation above the ceiling tiles). This time scale was for abatement only; not installing any of the replacement materials.

 

[HalcyonEra]

You do understand that asbestos is comes in multiple forms and generally is not a hazard to ones health unless disturbed, right?

In most of these older buildings it is in the form of window sealant, floor tiles, insulation (most common on older piping), mastic. All of which will not cause any harm unless it is physically disturbed and goes airborne -- which is why areas are environmentally contained during removal. Even then, most of them contain other materials and only a small percentage of asbestos.

People should be more concerned about mold.

I do, but that wasn't the point. Agree on the mold too. The issue with old structures is that so many people over the years have worked on the structure, whether qualified or not, knowledgeable or not. Whether renovations, rewiring, repairing or simple maintenance, many disturbed elements are simply covered up and out of sight. I worked in a "sick" building in the leather district for a year and half many years ago. Great structure but I swear I was sick the entire time.

This building is pushing 90 years old and until it's ripped apart and thoroughly abated and renovated as bigpicture notes, no one has any idea what is in or not in, its bones. I doubt this place has had many overhauls or full fledged renovations. More likely its been smaller projects and normal maintenance simply to keep up with the times. If it ain't broke, it's not fixed.

 

[Justin7]

I like the idea of adding an external circulation and utility core, but suspect that economics just don't work: isn't such a core (as CSTH and others propose grafting on) basically most of the cost of a new building?

A modern core of stairs, Elevator, plumbing, HVAC, electrical..that's the expensive stuff...the building around it is mostly empty box with a façade.

So rather than graft an expensive core on a building that'd have to be carefully redone, I'd favor building a new courthouse on City Hall Plaza and then sell the old one for whatever the market will bear (and maybe it becomes residential, maybe it gets dynamited)

A new one on City Hall Plaza could have modern, ADA flows and security on lower levels for all the many users whose flows need to be (ideally) kept apart.

You had me until "dynamited."

 

[odurandina]

^^huh? >>that was the best part!

definitely dynamite tomorrow;
Center Plaza #1 candiate for new open/park space with maybe just 1 building
State Services
Low section O'Neill Bldg
Low Section of JFK Bldg
City Hall

Christian Science Tower

probably dynamite the day after;
Suffolk Court Tower for 480~620' modernistic/deco tower

 

[Arlington]

^^huh? >>that was the best part!

If a new buyer wants to preserve it (as luxury apartments? a luxury hotel) that's great...and that's basically how a lot of obsolete office buildings end up, and worth trying to find a buyer who'll give it a try (but I can't see it being worth the State doing it for a court building, unless you can show that it is somehow a bargain to reuse).

 

[cca]

even if it is a "loss" to the architecture crowd that like to jerk off to it

I think you vastly mis-underestimate how excited people get about this stuff. I guess you are being rhetorical but jeez ... think of the children.

cca

 

[HalcyonEra]

I think you vastly mis-underestimate how excited people get about this stuff. I guess you are being rhetorical but jeez ... think of the children.

cca

I was being rhetorical but believe me I don't understimate the lure. It's why we are surrounded by brutalist monstrosities. I like Art Deco but I don't advocate using taxpayer money to modernize a 90 year old building.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I was being rhetorical but believe me I don't understimate the lure. It's why we are surrounded by brutalist monstrosities. I like Art Deco but I don't advocate using taxpayer money to modernize a 90 year old building.

Completely agree. This likely requires very serious updates. Right party is a private developer who buys it from the (County?) for a reasonable price, and does the rehab, probably as housing. County should build a new courthouse from scratch, not rehab this.

 

[Roxxma]

Completely agree. This likely requires very serious updates. Right party is a private developer who buys it from the (County?) for a reasonable price, and does the rehab, probably as housing. County should build a new courthouse from scratch, not rehab this.

It would be the Commonwealth, since there is no county (and hasn't been one since the 1990s). Considering that several hundred million dollars was just sunk into restoration and renovation of the adjacent Adams Courthouse, this might be penny wise but very pound foolish. The central location of all of the courts should be the first consideration. The state already possesses the real estate, and it is convenient to most state offices and is functional and already there.