The Definitive ArchBoston Tall vs Small Debate Thread

[gooseberry]

Comparing our 625', "normal floorplate" tower to a 2000' twisting tower is more out of whack than comparing the Kensington to the Hancock.

It kinda seems like you place too much importance on skyscrapers and worry too much about something you have no control over. I don't understand why it is so crucial that Boston have some sort of mega skyline. Awesome cities like Berlin, Barcelona, Paris, London... have no distinctive skyline at all. I am excited to see this building go up as well, but stop worrying about how long it is going to take, live your life and before you know it, the thing will be out of the ground and rising. Take a chill pill.

Sorry, maybe you don't obsess over skyscrapers, but your posts make it seem like that.

 

[DZH22]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

Awesome cities like Berlin, Barcelona, Paris, London... have no distinctive skyline at all.

London: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=112037037&postcount=1356

Paris: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=112902709&postcount=718

Unless you are talking about a different London and Paris that haven't been building like gangbusters for the past few years? Tall, bold designs, extremely high quality, and in a quantity I have never witnessed in Boston in my lifetime.

I am very happy about the street level improvements in Boston with all of the new construction. But, are we not running out of room? Are we not at the point where we often have to destroy buildings in order to build new ones? Are we happy with The Kensingtons of our skyline? Destroy the Dainty Dot, gain a Kensington?

I also hail from the suburbs (where I'm also currently stuck working) and so much of my viewing of the city is from the suburbs or driving in. Am I really supposed to look at, say, One Boston Place and One Beacon in downtown and say "these towers should dominate from the North forever". Perhaps part of my problem is that I have a very artistic view of skylines in general. I selfishly look forward to new large towers to reinvigorate my stale pictures and jaded view of the city from afar. Considering we haven't even built a 400' building in 10 years (around the time we went from comparable to Toronto's skyline to 1/4 the size) I am like a starving animal over here.

If you should compare Boston to any city, it's probably San Francisco. The same San Francisco that built their own millennium tower a few years back, as well as One Rincon (and now Two Rincon). They're basically a couple of years ahead of us skyline-wise, and are soon going to construct the Transbay Tower (1070').

My last analogy will be to skyscrapers and sports. To me, these are 2 of my favorite things that I am passionate about. I remember before Boston became titletown, and we were in a major drought. Should I have just pointed to all the Celtics banners and said "I am happy about these, even though I don't remember a single one since they were before my time, but look at all those titles". Our skyline lore is like this, mostly forged 25-50 years ago. If you see these skyscrapers as trophies on top of everything else, then the Millennium Tower for me will equate to the Patriots beating the Rams. Hopefully then the floodgates will open.

I might be less impatient if I was confident I would actually live to see these buildings built. I'm not. You can't take life for granted, and you can't take for granted that something will be built just because it's approved to be. In this case, the carrot has been dangled in front of us for over 15 years (since SST first announced) with absolutely nothing to show for it.

On a final note, if this tower doesn't excite you, stop posting here. For some of us, seeing something rise above One Boston Place, One Financial, Pregnant Building, etc is in fact important.

I don't understand why it is so crucial that Boston have some sort of mega skyline.

Boston will never have a mega skyline. I don't think you know what a mega skyline is. If we could snap our fingers, and have every proposal of the last 30 years suddenly built (in its best form) Boston still wouldn't have a mega skyline, especially on the world stage. It doesn't need a mega skyline, it just needs some new tall towers to draw the eye away from the 70's/80's big boxes that have dominated the view for 30 years.

 

[Cojapo]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

It kinda seems like you place too much importance on skyscrapers and worry too much about something you have no control over. I don't understand why it is so crucial that Boston have some sort of mega skyline. Awesome cities like Berlin, Barcelona, Paris, London... have no distinctive skyline at all. I am excited to see this building go up as well, but stop worrying about how long it is going to take, live your life and before you know it, the thing will be out of the ground and rising. Take a chill pill.

Sorry, maybe you don't obsess over skyscrapers, but your posts make it seem like that.

London has a couple of distinct skylines, with a great looking looking new 1,000 foot tower. Paris has La Defense as it's commercial center, with a very unique looking skyline. You may be right about Berlin and Barcelona, but even those cities are starting to add height AND quality designs.

And there are only a few cities in the world that has a "mega skyline". NYC, Hong Kong come to mind. Boston never will be on the level of those two cities.

 

[bobthebuilder]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

But, are we not running out of room? Are we not at the point where we often have to destroy buildings in order to build new ones? Are we happy with The Kensingtons of our skyline? Destroy the Dainty Dot, gain a Kensington?

I wouldn't say Boston is running out of room, as there is plenty of space in un-gentrified areas to build low-mid rise office/hotel/residential or whatever, but not all of that should be built up. What we are running out of is develop-able land with good transit access. We really need to be building tall near our transit, especially the high line as well as expanding our transit system.

I like the analogy with towers/championship trophies. I certainly hope the recent developments open the floodgates. I'd love to see something pass the Hancock tower for tallest. It's held the title for far too long.

To bring this all back to the topic at hand, does anybody have a solid idea of when this thing might start moving vertically? I know a 4-6 month guesstimate was thrown out there, but does anybody have an idea of what needs to be done before this begins to rise? I know the below grade levels and first two above ground will be slow going, but once this thing gets a few floors above ground it should shoot up pretty quick right? Being CIP and all.

 

[FK4]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

London has a couple of distinct skylines, with a great looking looking new 1,000 foot tower. Paris has La Defense as it's commercial center, with a very unique looking skyline. You may be right about Berlin and Barcelona, but even those cities are starting to add height AND quality designs.

And there are only a few cities in the world that has a "mega skyline". NYC, Hong Kong come to mind. Boston never will be on the level of those two cities.

Not to totally hijack the thread, but having lived in London 2003-2004, right after the gherkin was made, I can say that #1) Canary Wharf was a cool place but only because it was surreal and built over a dockland waste that Boston does not have an equivalent of and that #2) despite the fact that the gherkin is cool, London did and would have done just fine without tall buildings. Despite wanting Boston to get more tall buildings, they should be done tastefully, and I would be much more keen on a supercool architectural project like the original Christian Science Complex somewhere else, than just another tall building per se. I cant say that any of the towers planned or under construction are as interesting as the Hancock or the Gherkin. We need to get Norman Foster down here, stat.

 

[Cojapo]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

Not to totally hijack the thread, but having lived in London 2003-2004, right after the gherkin was made, I can say that #1) Canary Wharf was a cool place but only because it was surreal and built over a dockland waste that Boston does not have an equivalent of and that #2) despite the fact that the gherkin is cool, London did and would have done just fine without tall buildings. Despite wanting Boston to get more tall buildings, they should be done tastefully, and I would be much more keen on a supercool architectural project like the original Christian Science Complex somewhere else, than just another tall building per se. I cant say that any of the towers planned or under construction are as interesting as the Hancock or the Gherkin. We need to get Norman Foster down here, stat.

Trust me, I am not implying that London NEEDED tall buildings. It was an amazing city before they started to go tall and will always be a world class city. A skyline with buildings that stand out however, is nice to view. I am a big fan of the Shard, even if it melts cars! Lol
I love Boston and would love to see height AND amazing architecture.

 

[underground]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

How many times have we had this skyline debate now? Can I get an official count from a mod?

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

How many times have we had this skyline debate now? Can I get an official count from a mod?

Lol, I was just about to post that I'm getting tired of this debate. It has become part of the aB cycle. We should really just have a thread where everyone can hash it out outside of all the individual project threads.

 

[DZH22]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

I am a big fan of the Shard, even if it melts cars!

Actually it's the "Walkie Talkie" that melts cars, due to the curve of the glass concentrating the sun onto the street.

I fully agree with you in the totality of what you were posting, but that one in there needs context.

Anyone with a working knowledge of US economics, sees the difference between what may have been proposed in 2006 versus what may have been proposed in 2011 as facing two COMPLETELY different environments.

......something about trap doors in the floor that swung open up for developers in 2007-2010????????

There are plenty of good examples we could point to, but that isn't one of them.....

You are right I could/should have found a better example. I think the point is to show that in other cities, they announce a substantial tower and then have shovels in the ground by the end of that year. This is a HUGE difference compared to our process here. More often than not, Boston's "process" also results in value engineered garbage, or complete cancellations due to "escalating construction costs" among other things.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

Actually it's the "Walkie Talkie" that melts cars, due to the curve of the glass concentrating the sun onto the street.




You are right I could/should have found a better example. I think the point is to show that in other cities, they announce a substantial tower and then have shovels in the ground by the end of that year. This is a HUGE difference compared to our process here. More often than not, Boston's "process" also results in value engineered garbage, or complete cancellations due to "escalating construction costs" among other things.

I hear ya, and to my pleasant surprise this new Mayor seems to be setting things quite different in his first 100+ days.

Paul McMorrow has an excellent piece in today's Globe:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...hould-steal/Xjv1aI6VIqwvv3uorSdwAJ/story.html


....the part about the NIMBY'S around North Station particularly blows my mind.

 

[kz1000ps]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

How many times have we had this skyline debate now? Can I get an official count from a mod?

I'll guess 22 in honor of the person at the center of every single one of these "debates."

 

[DZH22]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

I'll guess 22 in honor of the person at the center of every single one of these "debates."

I'm not always at the center of them all. I just happen to have the most well researched arguments. By the way, you have plenty of inane posts that make me question the very existence of humanity. I try not to single you out, but honestly, it really pisses me off when people act like their shit doesn't stink.

You're lucky you post such good pictures, because your attitude (ie, the way you completely and selectively write people off) is absolutely horrendous.

 

[underground]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

Oh, please. For the love of all that is good, next time you want to have a general discussion about the general merits of tall, start a thread in the general section. That's what it's generally there for.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

Woaaaah. Can a mod take care of this asap please before it escalates further?

 

[kz1000ps]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

I'm not always at the center of them all. I just happen to have the most well researched arguments. By the way, you have plenty of inane posts that make me question the very existence of humanity. I try not to single you out, but honestly, it really pisses me off when people act like their shit doesn't stink.

You're lucky you post such good pictures, because your attitude (ie, the way you completely and selectively write people off) is absolutely horrendous.

No, it's just that I've thought you are weirdly obsessed with skyscrapers for years and you continually reinforce that impression of mine. Clearly I'm not the only one thinking that either.

 

[davem]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

HEY LOOK!

!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!

a distraction!



Let's chill out before this devolves into a pissing contest. The tower project is actually moving, the largest concrete pour in Boston's history just took place. Things are good.

 

[DZH22]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

The argument isn't about the "general merits of tall". It's not even really an argument at all. It's just a series of observations.

Boston has 27 buildings at least 400', but 0 built within the last 10+ years.

In the time since the last substantial boom (State Street, Millennium Place, 111 Huntington, 33 Arch) Boston has proposed at least a dozen projects in this range. (400'+)

Out of that string of proposals, so far we have 0 built and 1 concrete filled hole in the ground. However, we have built a million other projects in those 10 years. So basically, smaller (often crap garbage) have been able to get out of the ground, while not a single one of the larger projects has succeeded. (YET)

Hopefully this one opens the floodgates. But isn't there something wrong that so much time has passed without any visible results? (record amount of cranes last few years, all ending in stumps) Isn't there something wrong with a system that has stone-walled every ambitious project in the city, until now?

 

[DZH22]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

No, it's just that I've thought you are weirdly obsessed with skyscrapers for years and you continually reinforce that impression of mine. Clearly I'm not the only one thinking that either.

I do love skyscrapers. It's why I'm here. Doesn't mean I need them built at all costs, but certain areas absolutely should have them, and Boston should absolutely build some if the demand is there (it is). Why are you here?

Some of my earliest memories are skyscraper-specific. I remember seeing 1 IP being built while on a field trip in kindergarten. (and a few years later seeing 2 IP being built from the school bus as well) I remember driving under the Longfellow Towers on another field trip, probably when I was 8. It's just my thing.

However, it's like sports. I have no control over how the Red Sox or Patriots play, or who they draft, or trade for, etc. I'm still going to complain when they suck and revel when they are winning championships. From that perspective, a new skyscraper to take the eyes away from One Boston Place (from north) is a championship skyscraper in my book.

EDIT: I also might be less "obsessed" with skyscrapers if Boston actually built them once in a while. It's like telling a starving person that they are "obsessed" with food. I'm starving too, to see something new takes its rightful place and marginalize the big-box 70's towers we all love to hate so much.

 

[datadyne007]

But this is ArchBoston, where we look at urbanism & development as a whole and not through one single lens (in your case skyscrapers) with respect for others' perspectives and views. You either have to accept that others have different perspectives or leave and go to SkyscraperPage where you can talk about skyscrapers all day, every day. Boston is not a metropolis, never has to be, and never will be. That's why I've been proud to call this city my home. We don't build skyscrapers for the sake of building them and instead create some incredible urban environments based on the European city model.

Also, this is a really weird thread/time to have this discussion. Millennium Tower is finally getting built (after returning, taller, sleeker, and denser) and all you can do is complain? Securing funding for massive projects in real life is not as easy as ALT+W or "imacheat" in SimCity.

 

[DZH22]

Re: Millennium Tower (Filene's) | 426 Washington Street | Downtown

EDIT: Sorry, I guess this missed the thread split.
-------------------

I don't think it was a split, I think it was a deletion. But perhaps YOU should go to those sites you talk about, particularly skyscrapercity. Check out the European, Canadian, and Australian cities. Ask yourself why they don't seem to be succumbing to the same problems that we are.

I only complain because, with my lifestyle, I'll probably be dead before I actually get to see any of this stuff! It would be like being born in 1919 as the world's biggest Red Sox fan. At least the biggest NIMBY of all (that dirty POS Menino) is finally out of office. His feeble-minded obstructionism was getting old.