The Orange Line Thread

vanshnookenraggen said:
Also if you look closely they would have combined Park St and Boylston St with two giant super platforms. Not sure how exactly this would be a benefit. Maybe transit planners were toying with this idea back then since the Chicago subways have this feature as well.
Click to expand...

Note that every train consists of three trolleys as well. So longer platforms would be necessary, it seems.

I still wish something like this would happen seeing as it's just about impossible to add tracks under Tremont between Park and School streets. You would have to deep bore, and that's probably just silly. But quadruple tracking all the way up to the Government Center loop would be HUGE. It would certainly allow for an F Line to Dudley, and perhaps would have made an E Line down Stuart St or the Pike more likely.
 
BostonUrbEx said:
But quadruple tracking all the way up to the Government Center loop would be HUGE. It would certainly allow for an F Line to Dudley, and perhaps would have made an E Line down Stuart St or the Pike more likely.
Click to expand...

Meh. What you're calling the F Line - as well as other lines like the A - did exist just fine using existing tunnels, from everything I've read at least. Seems like once again it comes down to the signal system.

And I don't see the problem with turning a good deal of trains at Park Street or Government Center depending on the direction the line is coming in from. I don't think a renewed Dudley line would be that much less successful stopping at Park Street than it would if it continued on to Gov't Center and beyond to Somerville, for example. Is the idea of a transfer so taboo as to make this setup untenable?
 
Shepard said:
Meh. What you're calling the F Line - as well as other lines like the A - did exist just fine using existing tunnels, from everything I've read at least. Seems like once again it comes down to the signal system.

And I don't see the problem with turning a good deal of trains at Park Street or Government Center depending on the direction the line is coming in from. I don't think a renewed Dudley line would be that much less successful stopping at Park Street than it would if it continued on to Gov't Center and beyond to Somerville, for example. Is the idea of a transfer so taboo as to make this setup untenable?
Click to expand...
The way the track layout between Park and Boylston is, the outer tracks are linked to Government Center and the Tremont tunnel (that an F-line would use) and the inner tracks are linked to the Park Street loop and the Boylston St. Subway.

I notice that the A and Arborway lines both generally turned at Park- in general I think that if the Park-Gov't Tunnel is at capacity, the most logical thing would be to turn one of the existing lines that uses the Boylston St. Subway (probably the B) at Park and send the Dudley line onward.
 
Shepard said:
Meh. What you're calling the F Line - as well as other lines like the A - did exist just fine using existing tunnels, from everything I've read at least. Seems like once again it comes down to the signal system.
Click to expand...

I heard the price quoted to update the Green Line signal system as being on the magnitude of $750 million. Seemed incredibly high to me, but an acquaintance was at an event with MBTA GM Bev Scott yesterday and that's the number she used.
 
MBTAddict said:
I heard the price quoted to update the Green Line signal system as being on the magnitude of $750 million. Seemed incredibly high to me, but an acquaintance was at an event with MBTA GM Bev Scott yesterday and that's the number she used.
Click to expand...

That sounds generously padded with a typical contingency quote, but more-or-less ballpark accurate in the $1/2B - $3/4B range. CBTC signaling is no big deal for heavy-rail lines. It's in-use worldwide including an ongoing rollout on NYC Subway. Not much traffic engineering needed there because it's fundamentally similar to the current system(s) in avg. block length, just with moving instead of fixed blocks. And is proven to increase capacity.

LRT, especially a system as dense as the GL and with such incredibly short signal blocks, is real challenge for implementing while retaining same headways. One wrong move in one place and it could do more harm than good. Like SEPTA did with its LRT subway ATO system that doesn't work right. So the traffic engineering is extremely intensive, the implementation will take a long time to roll out and debug (they're going to have to test the shit out of it on single-branch headways like the Huntington tunnel and D to get their reps making on-the-fly tweaks before even thinking about doing open-heart surgery on the Central Subway), and it's a lot more onboard hardware to replace given the size of the fleet that would have to be computer-equipped.

But it has to be done because one more bad accident and the NTSB is going to levy sanctions for a mandatory auto-stop system. So they better have it well-studied and have a traffic engineering plan in place to execute. And if it does successfully automate dispatching it's an ENORMOUS improvement for on-time performance and schedule accuracy, and saves them money on long-term maint with dramatically consolidated/simplified trackside hardware. The Green Line can handle more branches; it did in the past with orderly headways. It just can't keep its flow orderly any longer with the fudge factor of mixing such crapshoot--and worsening--branch schedules. So headways don't have to increase at all to handle a ton more traffic if the schedule accuracy just gets more precise and schedule adjustments can be evened out incrementally across the end-to-end duration of the subway trip. The holy grail is when a late or bunching B('s) approaching Blandford with Kenmore next no longer fucks the subway up because all things 3-4 stops ahead and (on D) 3-4 stops behind auto-adjust to pace themselves around the tardy/bunched arrivals so they don't get penalized with a layover or short-turn abort. That's when the Dudleys, the Needhams, the Urban Rings, and the alternate service patterns can really start stepping in and getting comfy.

Worth every penny if they get it right.
 
anyone have any info on the two circa 1970s proposed expansions of the orange line to Needham and through Hyde Park? I know the Needham branch was voted down and eventually became the commuter rail line, but some info I found a while back said that the T was supposedly obligated to extend the orange line down to 128 along Hyde Park Ave - which obviously never happened, and I can't find any mention of why it went away.
 
AFAIK, the original plan was for the OL to go to Dedham via the RoW splitting off after W. Roxbury. That RoW has since been built upon so it's defunct. It's not worth it to ever send the OL to Needham. If Needham gets rapid transit, it will be Green Line via Newton. The most you're going to get out of the Orange Line is to West Roxbury (maybe to Millennium Park, but I'm not sure if there's room/demand to do that).

I'm sure F-Line has a lot more info than I do.
 
If you look on Google Earth you can see OL tracks extending along the Needham Branch CR just after Forest Hills. It would seem at this point the best option would just be to extend it one stop to Roslindale since that is a major bus hub.

The thing you have to understand is that the original plans for the OL to be extended out to R 128 go back to when the CR was in dire straights. The plan was to extend all subway lines out to 128 with large park-and-ride facilities and have CR either terminate at 128 or run express into the CBD. Times have changed and with lots of investment the communities through which the CR runs, for the most part, like the quick access to downtown and the fact that a higher cost ride means it keeps a certain demographic out of their communities.

In NYC you have local and express stops. In Boston you have subway and commuter rail. It doesn't really make sense to keep extending the subway out much further unless there is a real demand for it (which you could argue about Roslindale).
 
Never were they thinking of replacing the whole Needham Line with Orange. 128 was the furthest out they were considering if they didn't end up going to Dedham. Downtown Needham to Needham Jct. was always to be served by a Green Line branch out of Upper Falls.

Also...what was fueling the project during the 60's and 70's was the fact that the SW Expressway would've wholly eradicated the NEC to Readville and cut the Needham Line's connection to South Station. The NEC was to be re-routed permanently over the Fairmount Line, and BBY would've become a Worceste- + Orange-only station. Since Orange was planned to parallel the highway, they supplanted the cut Needham Line with it out to W. Rox and were planning to simultaneously do the GL branch to supplant the other half.


Rozzie is definitely doable without disrupting the commuter rail. The historic ROW is 3 tracks out to there because there was an old freight yard right by Rozzie station. If they installed a replacement passing siding further out they could do 2 Orange and 1 CR track with no adverse affects. And then whenever they build out to W. Rox and CR gets cut, turn that lone CR track into a fenced-off path to Rozzie forking off SW Corridor Park.
 
vanshnookenraggen said:
Times have changed and with lots of investment the communities through which the CR runs, for the most part, like the quick access to downtown and the fact that a higher cost ride means it keeps a certain demographic out of their communities.

In NYC you have local and express stops. In Boston you have subway and commuter rail. It doesn't really make sense to keep extending the subway out much further unless there is a real demand for it (which you could argue about Roslindale).
Click to expand...

A pragmatic and reasonable point. I find that a little confusing when your website includes all kinds of speculation of extension, much of the pictures is the continuance of the old visions to extend to or just over the 128 route. I thought there was some advocacy as a need than just imagining a future.
 
ant8904 said:
A pragmatic and reasonable point. I find that a little confusing when your website includes all kinds of speculation of extension, much of the pictures is the continuance of the old visions to extend to or just over the 128 route. I thought there was some advocacy as a need than just imagining a future.
Click to expand...

I don't ever say I'm am advocate, just throwing out ideas. In fact the original concept was just to see what the map would look like with the proposed extensions.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Rozzie is definitely doable without disrupting the commuter rail. The historic ROW is 3 tracks out to there because there was an old freight yard right by Rozzie station. If they installed a replacement passing siding further out they could do 2 Orange and 1 CR track with no adverse affects. And then whenever they build out to W. Rox and CR gets cut, turn that lone CR track into a fenced-off path to Rozzie forking off SW Corridor Park.
Click to expand...

How much would an extension to Rozzie cost?

Related: How much would the T save in reduced fuel usage/costs/wear and tear on equipment by eliminating 90 percent of the bus traffic between Roslindale Square and Forest Hills?
 
I would imagine barely anything. The only issue I could see would be if the Arboretum Road and South Street overpasses are historic, since you would have to add a track. Its really a no-brainer though, I'm surprised there hasn't been more traction behind the idea.
 
davem said:
I would imagine barely anything. The only issue I could see would be if the Arboretum Road and South Street overpasses are historic, since you would have to add a track. Its really a no-brainer though, I'm surprised there hasn't been more traction behind the idea.
Click to expand...

Both those stone arches already are 3-track width. They date to when the line was tri-tracked to the ex- Rozzie freight yard.

Bridge 1: http://goo.gl/maps/u3ZeU
Bridge 2: http://goo.gl/maps/iOOzR



Having a Mayor who actually advocates for things would be a big help. The only thing Hizzoner has cared about within 3 miles of Rozzie Square is that the FH Overpass replacement doesn't make his chauffeur have to stop at one more light on his drive to the office. This is flyover country to him.
 
^Would it do anything to capacity on the Needham line or any other CR schedules?

Even if it does, I would be much more inclined to go to Rozzie on the OL rather than CR.
 
davem said:
I would imagine barely anything. The only issue I could see would be if the Arboretum Road and South Street overpasses are historic, since you would have to add a track. Its really a no-brainer though, I'm surprised there hasn't been more traction behind the idea.
Click to expand...

A lot of folks in Rozzie are interested in the idea, but nobody has really gotten down to organizing. I may try to get some things going, like a facebook page and such, but first I need some hard facts with which to make the argument. I haven't really had the time or know-how to collect all of that so far. My gut instinct agrees that it's a no brainer, and not just because it would serve people living in Roslindale (see Choo's comment). I think once there is a OLX fact sheet, it would be possible enough to raise awareness and get some advocacy going.
 
HenryAlan said:
A lot of folks in Rozzie are interested in the idea, but nobody has really gotten down to organizing. I may try to get some things going, like a facebook page and such, but first I need some hard facts with which to make the argument. I haven't really had the time or know-how to collect all of that so far. My gut instinct agrees that it's a no brainer, and not just because it would serve people living in Roslindale (see Choo's comment). I think once there is a OLX fact sheet, it would be possible enough to raise awareness and get some advocacy going.
Click to expand...

Oh, it's not like this hasn't been acknowledged as a priority by those in an official capacity in recent years:

http://www.bostonredevelopmentautho...ns/Forest Hills CM-2 Group Notes 07-01-25.pdf


Actually doing something with the stated demand instead of burying it in the fine print of selective memory is where the BRA and City Hall need to feel the pressure. Make it an issue in the next Mayoral race. Make Rozzie and JP's perpetual flyover country status for the last 2 decades an issue in the next Mayoral race. The problem of which neighborhoods get all of the City Hall machine's spoils goes way beyond just transit for these neighborhoods, but it's an obvious galvanizing point.
 
Wouldn't Amtrak have some interest in this project as a means to relieve congestion at South Station? Eliminating the Needham line would open up a bunch of rush hour slots, I would think.
 
DowntownDave said:
Wouldn't Amtrak have some interest in this project as a means to relieve congestion at South Station? Eliminating the Needham line would open up a bunch of rush hour slots, I would think.
Click to expand...
As far as I know the Southwest Corridor still isn't nearly as bad as the New Haven Line or the Shore Line in that regard- however, if Amtrak ever gets its Connecticut bypass then it could become an impediment for them. Probably too far out to get any support in the immediate period.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top