The Orange Line Thread

Wouldn't Amtrak have some interest in this project as a means to relieve congestion at South Station? Eliminating the Needham line would open up a bunch of rush hour slots, I would think.

Not just Amtrak. Providence Line congestion and some--South Coast or Taunton--significant increase in Stoughton Line service starts squeezing the NEC between SS and FH pretty hard. Booting Franklin to the Fairmount Line only marginally improves it, and only if the lost Ruggles slots disappear instead of being immediately absorbed by Stoughton/Taunton/wherever increases at that station.

Needham needs more service, not less. But it's not going to get more service even in an expanded SS because NEC congestion is the ruling capacity cap for the runt of the branchline litter. Either they institute a dinky shuttle that just runs back and forth between FH and Needham without ever merging onto the NEC, or service stays relatively static forever. And a dinky really wouldn't work that well if it didn't go to Ruggles for the bus transfers or BBY for the central business district, much like Metro North's Waterbury Line does proceed to Bridgeport on the mainline.

The capacity need vs. reality is on a collision course that's going to render status quo untenable by 2030. They know it. And since Needham already successfully pinned them with legal maneuvers in 1986 to get the line reinstated after its 1979 "temporary" shutdown they can only remove it off the CR network with a combo Orange + Green build. They will lose that lawsuit hard if they pull any funny business. Might as well do Rozzie now and get rid of the cheap, easy one that doesn't induce project dependencies further outbound on the CR branch. The other stops to W. Rox are much more bite-size and easier to stage if Rozzie and the much more efficiently situated bus transfers are already running.
 
Question re: Needham and the OL: What is the industrial-looking facility just west of the Needham Junction Commuter Rail station (in the 'y' formed by the tracks)?

Seems to me to be a decent location for a terminal stop on the OL, and then a D line extension could terminate there as well.
 
^ not sure what the facility is, but the T won't bring BOTH. The GL and OL. To Needham. It's not worth bringing the OL past W Rox.
 
Question re: Needham and the OL: What is the industrial-looking facility just west of the Needham Junction Commuter Rail station (in the 'y' formed by the tracks)?

Seems to me to be a decent location for a terminal stop on the OL, and then a D line extension could terminate there as well.

It's some company. And there's a small town DPW lot way in the back. Nothing special. The wye is elevated above street level, so there's always been stuff filling up the cavity in the middle.


The stop does not get enough ridership to be a transfer node. It works great as the GL terminus because that goes north through downtown and would get all-day local traffic. The frequently overcrowded 59 bus doubles up the Needham Line north-south through downtown and out to Newton Highlands to flesh out the anemic CR headways for local travel. Its existence and patronage is the leading indicator that Needham needs N-S running rapid transit. The 59 can probably go away entirely if they built the GL out.

Orange at Junction has the same problem as the 128 stop. The utilization is going to skew so heavy to 9-5 commute hours that the off-peak trains past West Roxbury are going to be nearly empty, and ridership very weak on weekends. There are no buses running east-west, just the aforementioned north-running 59. The nearest buses on the Orange ROW are at West Roxbury. This is the leading indicator that there's little all-day demand for higher frequencies between Junction and W. Rox. Which is not surprising when almost all of it is uninhabited Cutler Park, the golf course, and 1 small neighborhood of mid-density residential sandwiched between the parks. People may find it faster than Green when going to/from work, but when they are actually in Needham they're heading north to do their business. And they are not going to flock to Junction to park-and-ride when 128 on Orange or Green @ Highland Ave. is much more convenient with much more parking capacity.

The risk here is that the trains are going to be so empty off-peak that the T has to short-turn at West Roxbury and waste 60% of the track miles of this extension as a limited-utilization loss leader for the whole rapid transit system. Green won't have quite as steep a dropoff because of the urban density N-S bringing more all-day boardings, and also because as an LRT branch they have much more fine-tuning control over headways. Off-peak if demand only warrants 1 two-car train every 20 minutes...fine. They can do that without depriving the Central Subway of any needed service. They load-balance all branches like this. On Orange you don't have branches. If 10 min. off-peak headways with a 6-car train are drawing almost zero revenue at 128 and Junction but still drawing good crowds at Malden Ctr...there is no throttling-down they can do. They either run empty or abort the run at W. Rox (like they used to do on the Charlestown El when Everett station was open Bowdoin hours only and all off-peak + weekend terminated at Sullivan). The farebox recovery is too way far out-of-line with the rest of the HRT system to justify that many unused or extremely weak-revenue miles that many hours of the week.


At most I could see 128 being the terminus. But probably as a later phase once they see how W. Rox performs and study the demand out very carefully. Rapid transit's supposed to have all-day demand, not just commute hours. That's the primary differentiator between it and commuter rail. If they can't prove the demand is there for the east-west leg (we've established that it most likely is there for the north-south leg based on town orientation and the 59), then they shouldn't build it. The evidence needs to be tangible and convincing.
 
Well - I'm on board with an expansion to Roslindale (I know there would be a ton of interest - especially since there's recently been a huge influx of young families priced out of JP) - where do I sign up? I'm sure the leading parkway candidates would also be somewhat interested. at the very least it would be worth setting up a stall at the farmers market and getting a petition going. I will admit I know absolutely nothing about how this would work and how much it would cost - but if F-line is correct, this could potentially be a fairly easy sell - maybe there's some money somewhere slated for transit projects? I know it would be a boon for the square and could spur some much needed activity and density around the commercial district.
 
A bit delayed, but one thing that looks appealing about that Y by Needham Junction is that it looks like a good fit for some infrastructure, perhaps a small yard for the trains. W. Roxbury is a tad cramped.
 
A bit delayed, but one thing that looks appealing about that Y by Needham Junction is that it looks like a good fit for some infrastructure, perhaps a small yard for the trains. W. Roxbury is a tad cramped.

Yeah. Any Green Line cannibalization of the Needham Branch would put a yard or loop on the wye. That was planned way back 50 years ago when they thought it was going to happen. Even though the Millis Line has been KO'd by a pending rail trail they're almost certainly keeping the wye so they can store and turn around work equipment, so nothing new will ever be developed there as long as it stays commuter rail. The driveway to the center parcel is blind because it's stuffed between two low-hanging rail bridges and has warning signs on the road, so it's not the most attractive commercial redevelopment site.


As for the OL, they'd probably redevelop the Shaw's property on Spring St. next to the Catholic Memorial School as the new terminal: http://goo.gl/maps/c1gjd. Much more parking room, direct street access, more direct bus access there than the tiny current station on Lagrange, and better stop spacing (current W. Rox platform is only 1900 ft. from Highland). There's plenty of room for a yard behind that site by the electrical substation property between Baker St. and VFW. They could fit like 4 tail tracks next to the substation, since the old junction here used to be a small freight yard. And then they could dump the rail trail coming from Medfield at VFW after crossing the parkway on the rail overpass. The side lots there serve up a direct ped connection to the OL station.
 
And they are not going to flock to Junction to park-and-ride when 128 on Orange or Green @ Highland Ave. is much more convenient with much more parking capacity.

Ah, but I think they are. GL from Needham (which I totally support btw) is going to take pretty much the same amount of time as GL from Riverside. Basically, 45-60 minutes when things are congested. At present, the T reports 32 minutes from Junction for commuter rail. Green Line trains have no WiFi and quiet cars, perks to which Needham commuters may have become accustomed, though I'm not actually sure the T has deployed those things in Needham. Green Line trains are definitely less comfortable and more crowded, however. Needham commuters would probably have to stand on the train for the first time ever.

Given that many of those commuters are probably fairly well-off (they live in Needham), I doubt they'll take the GL over driving in. They might, however, take the OL, particularly if it's a rush-hour only service where they can be pretty sure they'll get on first, claim all the seats, and get to Downtown in their current 35 minutes. Of course, this only works one way, but by then they're stuck Downtown without a car...

On the flipside, I could also see Needham pushing for GL service because they're afraid of ruffians from Roslindale and Roxbury gaining access to their town.
 
Ah, but I think they are. GL from Needham (which I totally support btw) is going to take pretty much the same amount of time as GL from Riverside. Basically, 45-60 minutes when things are congested. At present, the T reports 32 minutes from Junction for commuter rail. Green Line trains have no WiFi and quiet cars, perks to which Needham commuters may have become accustomed, though I'm not actually sure the T has deployed those things in Needham. Green Line trains are definitely less comfortable and more crowded, however. Needham commuters would probably have to stand on the train for the first time ever.

Given that many of those commuters are probably fairly well-off (they live in Needham), I doubt they'll take the GL over driving in. They might, however, take the OL, particularly if it's a rush-hour only service where they can be pretty sure they'll get on first, claim all the seats, and get to Downtown in their current 35 minutes. Of course, this only works one way, but by then they're stuck Downtown without a car...

On the flipside, I could also see Needham pushing for GL service because they're afraid of ruffians from Roslindale and Roxbury gaining access to their town.

Yeah, but the rub is "Are they going to flock all day?". The GL branch hits all the density in Needham and all the bus outflow. The entire street grid west of 128 is oriented N-S or NW-SE. The would-be GL 128 stop serves the max-density Highland Ave. corridor and all the TOD they want to build there.

The OL corridor is 2 miles of barren parkland between VFW Parkway and Great Plain Ave., the light-density residential neighborhood at Hersey, another parkland gap around the golf course, and Junction. Zero buses, street grid oriented to downtown, and the town forest stretching everywhere west of Junction to the Charles and Dover town line. There is no chance to ever build up TOD around the would-be 128 stop because of the preservation parkland, wetlands, and quiet upscale low-density residential neighborhood devoid of commercial zoning. And there is no potential to ever build up bus routes serving that area because all roads point to center of the town where the GL goes. Compare that with other infamous parking sinks like Alewife, Wellington, Riverside, and Wonderland that have either HUGE streams of buses pumping them full all day, (gradually improving) TOD in the immediate vicinity, or both. It's those ancillary traffic-generating connections and destinations that make it happen.

The GL branch and the OL from West Roxbury-inbound follow the neighborhoods' traditional local traffic patterns and serve all-day point-to-point travel. This is where the buses go. This is where the cars go when doing in-town errands. This is where the pedestrians go. You can count on lots of people getting on at West Roxbury and getting off at Rozzie or FH all day. You can count on lots of people pinging back and forth in Needham and Newton to do business at Needham Town Hall @ Center or Beth Israel Deaconess @ Junction all day. You can probably count on a very healthy lunchtime spike on the GL as all that Beth Israel staff heads to the center of town for a bite.

What is going to anchor that 128 stop and the OL flank at Junction? You're pretty much looking at a parking garage on Great Plain Ave. that fills at 8:00am, empties by 6:00pm, and is inert all other hours of the day because there's nothing commercial in the area, zero transfers steaming in, and no potential to cultivate either. And those riders are overwhelmingly going for the one-seat between Back Bay and North Station and not point-to-point. They aren't stimulating corridor growth like W. Rox-FH and Junction-Newton Ctr. These OL trains will be well-patronized from 7:00-10:00am and 4:00-7:00pm, largely empty mid-day and weekend mid-day, and deserted at night. The T will be in a severe ops bind because half the mileage on the HRT extension can only hit league-average farebox recovery 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. The rest of the time it is the system's loss leader...by a humongous margin.


That's not a rapid transit corridor. That's a commuter rail corridor. Different modes for different purposes. HRT (and LRT) are very much point-to-point, all-day, and a vacuum for transfers. Commuter rail is 9-5 oriented and one-seat to the urban core. The modes tend to perform poorly when those roles get too confused, stretched, and contradictory. If the demand for express one-seats was an A#1 priority, we'd have express trains on all our HRT lines right now and heavily-patrionized CR/HRT infill stops at Braintree, Malden Ctr., JFK, FH, etc. We don't. It's a nice-to-have, but it's not what transit users live and die by. I agree stuff should be a lot faster and less-congested, and agree that we need to separate out functionally broken lines like Green from the other 3 that are, warts and all, doing their stated job descriptions faithfully. But the evidence is overwhelming that frequency, transfer options, destinations en route, and general reliability matter vastly more than the stopwatch in what people value in their transit. The evidence is overwhelming in Needham alone since they've been pining for this for half a century.

If you look at the Blue Book the boardings spread out pretty evenly throughout the system aside from the more ridiculous B and E redundancies. Particularly on HRT, where it's an even spread with occasional outer spikes at a large bus node. That's the all-day walkup showing itself. Needham E-W doesn't have that all-day walkup. It's setting up for a huge ridership crater at 128 when that stop can't produce par-for-the-system activity much more than 30-40 hours a week. It's setting up for a really ugly-looking skew when Green at Junction and Highland/128 on the town's prevailing corridor stays strong all day when Orange/E-W can only cut it at commute hours.

That's half the mileage of this HRT extension where off-peak is only recovering 5¢ on the dollar for all the crews, station staff, equipment, electricity, and maintenance on an end-to-end line not set up too well (due to lack of staffed yards anywhere except Wellington) for easy alt service patterns and mix-and-match frequencies to individual stops. They probably will have to cut service at West Roxbury at night and weekends like they do at Bowdoin and used to do on the El for Everett to staunch the ops bleeding. And do it permanently because TOD and bus connections won't ever be growable at Great Plain.

The need for rapid transit on the inner and outer thirds of the Needham Line far outstrip what the tapped-out CR capacity can provide. And the great thing is nobody is inconvenienced with any transit loss whatsoever except for the very light non- park-and-ride neighborhood walkup at Hersey. Which is close enough to Junction to walk on the rail trail or supplement with a bus. Needham isn't going to be bothered by the loss of the most convenient downtown direct. Because they want frequency, frequency, frequency and connectivity to satisfy the need and unbind the town from transit-oriented growth. They will happily take the Green Line with no transit loss to open them up for all-day business. The number of people outside a few dozen homes walking distance to Hersey who will be complaining about the stopwatch is extremely small compared to the ones overjoyed at how much easier their daily lives and job options got by having a trolley come every 10-20 minutes 19 hours a day, 7 days a week.
 
What about the ability of the Orange Line to better relieve (than a stub CR line) pressure on a Needham Green line spur, which might get skewed by those same commuting pressures? Or might the simple shortening of the CR line to Needham Junction alone be enough to make that particular route better?
 
What about the ability of the Orange Line to better relieve (than a stub CR line) pressure on a Needham Green line spur, which might get skewed by those same commuting pressures? Or might the simple shortening of the CR line to Needham Junction alone be enough to make that particular route better?

Needham is not SO dense that the Green Line is going to be standing-room only. Do the intermediate stops in Newton frequently have bodies packed elbow-to-elbow on the platforms? Not really. They don't need the frequencies to clear out humongous logjams at the stations...they need the frequencies because there's a similarly steady moderate all-day walkup at every stop. Like the D intermediates. Remember, this branch was conceived to open at the same time as the D did in the 50's...they were two birds of a feather.

3-car trolley every 7-10 minutes in the 7-10am/4-7pm peak will do it. 2-car trolley every 10-15 off-peak will do it, maybe with a lunchtime spike. The Riverside park-and-ride analogue that's stuffed at peak is going to be the Highlands/128 stop...not Heights, Center, or Junction where the story is going to be moderate all-day walkup with limited parking. And Highlands probably won't have quite Riverside's tippy-top peak.



Keeping CR to Junction while only doing Green makes no sense. Rozzie and W. Rox need rapid transit WAY worse, and there is no possible way to increase CR frequencies with the NEC congestion. Pinging a dinky shuttle between Junction and FH that stays off the NEC is borderline insulting and kneecaps the neighborhoods' already lousy transit access that much further. And CR extension to Medfield and Millis is dead-dead-dead thanks to the Dover NIMBY's and their trail scam. The only thing useful that you can put here is the Orange Line. And if you put the Orange Line--which is the more critical of the two--here you must do the Green Line flank. Needham successfully threatened lawsuit to get CR service restored after 8 years of "temporary suspension" in the 80's during SW Corridor construction. The T tried to Arborway them and got stuffed. They won't succeed 25+ years later at trying the same when the town has grown that much more.

Trying to have everyone's cake and eating it too with some CR + OL 3-track ROW isn't going to work either except for the FH-Rozzie stretch where the ROW is already wide enough. It would take residential land-taking, leveling the ROW embankment in favor of a mini-SW Corridor concrete cut, and $1B to fit both modes on the same footprint. Which is an insane idea now that Millis has been cut forever and no large city or 495 park-and-ride lurked down there to begin with.



You don't need it. The rapid transit frequencies fill the need on the first and last thirds of the Needham Line. The middle third is grassland. If there was demand for frequency through the grassland there would be buses doubling-up the perpetually lousy CR schedule just like there always has been N-S through town and from West Roxbury-east. If there was historical demand why did this map separate the two and hit Dedham instead...and why did the Riverside commuter rail that pre-dated the trolleys carry heavier Needham ridership NORTH instead of east on the old 'circuit service'. Point to where the people are going on modes that vastly exceed the frequency of the perennial leper of the CR schedule. Substantiate with numbers other than "Well, I think it would be convenient", or "Why not both?". That's Transit OCD run amok. And both the W. Rox and Newton-Needham corridors have been studied ad nauseam for 70 years. There are generations worth of hard numbers saying where the people actually go, and what they most value in transit. It may be second only to Lynn on the longest-time-coming/most-studied corridors nobody in power has lifted a finger on yet. The "Why not both?" build needs to start piling up some numbers, not personal opinions or random anecdotes.



I'll say this...if demand to 128 merits, they should consider a Great Plain stop. As a Phase II. MINIMUM 10 years after West Roxbury opens. See if the boosted transit at the ends of each flank uncovers a crying need for a direct link that all the other decades of studies somehow missed. If it's real, go ahead and study it in depth and advance it cautiously. But that's not one they can just hedge on. If they burn half the mileage of that extension for a ridership crater they can't afford to run to and can't physically tart up into a destination, they own that crater forever. We don't have any craters like that on the HRT system. There's almost no jumping-off point anywhere else on the rapid transit system that would even risk such a thing. But it's a risk here so that all-day demand evidence better be slam-dunk.

I don't ever think demand will be there to do BOTH 128/Great Plain and a Junction direct-transfer. And no Boston MPO universe-of-projects fantasy list has ever suggested going past 128/Great Plain as a study option. If a Green-Orange transfer is needed that bad from the western direction, that's what you spend the money relocating Copley Jct. to a BBY transfer, tunneling under Huntington for D/E thru-routes, or building the Urban Ring achieves. No transfer node has ever tried to hang its hat on density as low or other-mode feeders as sparse as Needham Jct. And when the powers that be can't even be arsed to care about reinstating such an outer transfer at Forest Hills, there are a whole shitload of radial transfers they need to be focusing on first in Boston-proper before "Why not both?" at Junction. So many higher-priority radial transfers that there will never in our wildest dream be a moment where there ISN'T a much higher-priority project to build than Green-Orange @ Junction.
 
As for the D line, at present, the rush hour trains are frequently packed and limited to standing room only. Daily complaint of the fiancee's commute, and she even schedules her day to try to beat rush hour.

And I wasn't thinking of a CR spur instead of the OL extension to W. Roxbury, but in addition to it.
 
And I wasn't thinking of a CR spur instead of the OL extension to W. Roxbury, but in addition to it.

That was addressed, no?

F-Line to Dudley said:
Trying to have everyone's cake and eating it too with some CR + OL 3-track ROW isn't going to work either except for the FH-Rozzie stretch where the ROW is already wide enough. It would take residential land-taking, leveling the ROW embankment in favor of a mini-SW Corridor concrete cut, and $1B to fit both modes on the same footprint. Which is an insane idea now that Millis has been cut forever and no large city or 495 park-and-ride lurked down there to begin with.
 
That's not a rapid transit corridor. That's a commuter rail corridor. Different modes for different purposes. HRT (and LRT) are very much point-to-point, all-day, and a vacuum for transfers. Commuter rail is 9-5 oriented and one-seat to the urban core... Needham isn't going to be bothered by the loss of the most convenient downtown direct. Because they want frequency, frequency, frequency and connectivity to satisfy the need and unbind the town from transit-oriented growth. They will happily take the Green Line with no transit loss to open them up for all-day business. The number of people outside a few dozen homes walking distance to Hersey who will be complaining about the stopwatch is extremely small compared to the ones overjoyed at how much easier their daily lives and job options got by having a trolley come every 10-20 minutes 19 hours a day, 7 days a week.

I've never disagreed with your arguments about all-day demand, but I do believe that a large number of people get screwed here. Commuting by GL from Needham to Downtown Boston simply is not an option most Needham commuters will abide, and they will drive. That result flies in the face of a lot of what transit extensions are meant to achieve, particularly as Roslindale and W. Roxbury residents probably commute largely by transit (bus and CR) as is.

This might be the rare transit project that results in a net increase in driving across the system, which just seems silly to me. You're sacrificing the survival of a genuine suburban transit success story for the convenience of inner city residents or the operational efficiency of the resulting service. That's just not a case I'd like to have to make to Needham residents.

Now, there's all sorts of benefits to doing these conversions, no doubt. Making Highland Ave/Needham St. a genuine Light Rail transit-oriented corridor is frankly far more important than 128 park-and-ride. Providing connections between neighborhoods in a fairly linear town is another. The benefits to Rozzie and West Roxbury have been covered to death. I'm just not willing to rob thousands of commuters of their transit options without at least considering what can be done to keep them served (the Great Plain stop would accomplish this...)
 
I believe Needham should ultimately have bidirectional service, to allow it to retain connections to West Roxy and establish a Highland Ave transit corridor. That being said, I dont believe the Orange Line would be the best to directly serve Needham. Even if Highland Ave is developed with 6-12 story buildings the whole way (very unlikely), I don't think the surrounding parcels will ever be developed enough to take advantage of the capacity of the OL. So either:

(1)GL across the plain, allows for potential TOD at Rivermoor near Millenium Park
Newton Highlands
Upper Falls
Highlandville/128 [P]
Needham Heights
Rosemary Lake
Needham Center
Needham Junction
Dedham Ave
Hersey
Greendale
Rivermoor
West Roxbury

West Roxbury
Highland
Bellevue
Roslindale
Forest Hills


(2)OL top speed across the plain, fast trip and grabs park and riders
Newton Highlands
Upper Falls
Highlandville
Needham Heights
Rosemary Lake
Needham Center
Needham Junction
Dedham Ave
Hersey
Greendale/128 [P]

Greendale/128 [P]
West Roxbury
Highland
Bellevue
Roslindale
Forest Hills


(3)Commuter rail across the plain, mega project in the future to get Forest-W Roxy on the OL eventually. Allows for CR extension
Newton Highlands
Upper Falls
Highlandville/128 [P]
Needham Heights
Rosemary Lake
Needham Center
Needham Junction

Needham Junction (and on to Dover, Medfield, Millis, and Medway)
West Roxbury
Highland
Bellevue
Roslindale
Forest Hills


No matter what, the Green Line needs to be brought down to the Junction. Where what goes after that is the only question, but I do believe some sort of transit needs to be retained across the plain.
 
I've never disagreed with your arguments about all-day demand, but I do believe that a large number of people get screwed here. Commuting by GL from Needham to Downtown Boston simply is not an option most Needham commuters will abide, and they will drive. That result flies in the face of a lot of what transit extensions are meant to achieve, particularly as Roslindale and W. Roxbury residents probably commute largely by transit (bus and CR) as is.

This might be the rare transit project that results in a net increase in driving across the system, which just seems silly to me. You're sacrificing the survival of a genuine suburban transit success story for the convenience of inner city residents or the operational efficiency of the resulting service. That's just not a case I'd like to have to make to Needham residents.

Now, there's all sorts of benefits to doing these conversions, no doubt. Making Highland Ave/Needham St. a genuine Light Rail transit-oriented corridor is frankly far more important than 128 park-and-ride. Providing connections between neighborhoods in a fairly linear town is another. The benefits to Rozzie and West Roxbury have been covered to death. I'm just not willing to rob thousands of commuters of their transit options without at least considering what can be done to keep them served (the Great Plain stop would accomplish this...)

Which is why I said: study it. But understand that there is real iffiness in the all-day utilization that could result in an untenable lead weight on operating costs if they cannot attract OL riders west of W. Rox for more than the 2 commute peaks.

Take all the rapid transit stops that have >500 parking spots and count the number of bus transfers:
-- Alewife (2733 spaces; 9 buses)
-- Quincy Adams (2538 spaces; 2 buses)
-- Wonderland (1862 spaces; 12 buses)
-- Braintree (1322 spaces; 2 buses + Logan Express)
-- Wellington (1316 spaces; 10 buses)
-- North Station (1275 spaces; 1 bus, 2 rapid transit lines, CR/Amtrak terminal)
-- North Quincy (1206 spaces; 3 buses)
-- Quincy Ctr. (872 spaces; 15 buses)
-- Riverside (925 spaces; 3 buses + various 128 corporate shuttles)
-- Oak Grove (788 spaces; 4 buses)
-- Wollaston (550 spaces; 2 buses)
-- Woodland (548 spaces; 1 MWRTA Framingham shuttle)

For potential rapid transit extensions likely to have Top 10 parking capacity: Lynn has 965 spaces and 10 buses, and Needham Highlands/128 has 1 bus + a 128 business shuttle. Your likely Great Plain/128 OL stop almost certainly will have no fewer than 1200 spaces and potentially close to 2000 given the agency's extreme tilt to parking capacity. But 0 buses...0 potential buses because of the street grid orientation...and likely not even a 128 business shuttle because the stop would be significantly further from the exit than all other rapid transit and CR stations on 128 and the only station in the bunch that's on a signaled ramp instead of a free-flowing cloverleaf/merge.


It is THE outlier. Even when lumping Westwood and Anderson CR stations in the mix + potential Waltham/Exit 26, Quannapowit/Exit 39, and Peabody/North Shore CR infills: all of those have at least 1 T, regional RTA, and/or Logan Express bus serving them. Dedham Corporate and itty-bitty Hersey (which would be displaced by this OL stop) are the only ones currently without connections. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt with numbers that this stop is going to get boardings more than three dozen hours a week when it has zero outside transit connectivity and zero TOD potential to anchor it the other 100-something service hours of the week where it's getting trains once every 10-15 mins. on average. If it's not there, and Junction is going to be a primary N-S, > three-quarters Green-oriented station from lack of parking...how can the T afford to run empty trains on 4 miles of track, run the extra equipment required, and staff/maintain one supersize parking sink that is making back only a nickel on the dollar that much of the time? They can't. There is no stretch of track on the system that would be in the same universe as an ops cost sink.

We criticize the south-of-Taunton South Coast FAIL stops for their abysmal cost recovery and service that doesn't fit those cities' natural travel patterns. And that's CR, where the mode primarily serves the peak. This is rapid transit, where the mode primarily serves all-day density. How do you justify one loss-leading anvil on the mode but not the other? The only argument that keeps either afloat is convenience for a small subset of riders valuing the one-seat, some sort of nebulous 'manifest destiny'. They each fail their mode for the same general reason of not conforming to the ridership profile that justifies each mode.


I will gladly be proven wrong on this if new study numbers show something different that all the decades prior in-depth study numbers don't show. The time to do that is after a Phase 1 OL to Rozzie/W. Rox + Green to Junction w/the Highlands park-and-ride cements service for the frequency-serving-density need that has been justified for 70 years by hard numbers. Then wait and see if that spurs demand in the gap before making a further commitment. It absolutely might be there, and we just can't tell yet because the all-important frequencies don't yet exist in the densest areas to tease out every indirect consequence.

But you can't commit without numbers strongly and unequivocally supporting how THE system outlier will overpower its isolation to all-day connections and perform in spite of those limitations. You can't float that commitment on anecdoteal hypotheses, and a lot of "I think. . ." or "This would be nice to have. . .", or "People might prefer this". Those hypothesis can't be substantiated by the "convenience" of the CR system's single most limited schedule, car traffic that skews far away from there, and a century of bus/streetcar service around the city has never produced a route through there or a peep about demand for one. Those are the hard empirical facts that justification for this build has to OVERPOWER with some new finding that has changed in the last couple decades since this was last studied in depth. And the one-of-these-is-not-like-the-others profile of that 128 stop's connectivity isolation is what that evidence has to overpower.

If it's there, awesome. But it would be a disaster to hedge on anecdotes and "I thinks. . ." for a loss leader that bleeds the OL dry on the ops side. That is anything but low-hanging fruit. And it would be a travesty to hold up the 7-decades-proven demand for the W. Rox and GL flanks over Transit OCD completism for that connecting flank. De-couple it entirely from the neighborhood extensions, build those two highest-demand flanks, then study and see what's there. Anything better in the dense neighborhoods is a net-gain for all not worth holding up for net-gainier-for-some completism. The ones who "think" they prefer a fast downtown one-seat over all else are probably in large numbers going to be pleasantly surprised when they no longer have to plan their lives around a CR train that only runs every 45 minutes to 2 hours a paltry 5 days a week. Being able to show up any time they please without a care or thought in the world and catch a train at Junction, Center, Heights, Highlands/128 every 7-20 minutes, 19 hours a day, 365 days a year has--in the studies to-date--far outstripped the demand for equivalent express travel time vs. the shitty CR schedule. If there is more to that story...prove it with the same data-collecting comprehensiveness as demand for frequency has been proven.

There's nothing controversial about that. If the demand is there, it's self-evident that they should go to 128. But find the demand...find it where it hasn't shown itself before...before fretting about those extra 4 miles of OL track and that massive parking garage in Cutler Park. That's the difference between smart growth and Transit OCD.
 
It seems related that the #500 express bus from Riverside had approximately only 50 riders each weekday before it was cancelled. Although the travel time on the Riverside line from end-to-end is rather poor (~45 minutes) compared to any kind of express service, the frequency and cost is far superior.

Although, in the case of Riverside, there are nearby commuter rail alternatives, and it seems that most of the riders boarding there are actually headed to Longwood -- not downtown.
 
Don't read anything into express bus counts. One of the interesting tidbits to come out of the fare/service debates last year was that ridership on a lot of the outer-ring bus routes is drastically undercounted. Commuter rail boardings are done manually, and local bus and subway counts tend to be good because drivers attempt to get every fare, but express bus drivers were reported to be ushering everyone on without dinging the farebox because everyone was assumed to have a monthly.

The 500, reportedly, ran full almost every trip.
 
Which is why I said: study it. But understand that there is real iffiness in the all-day utilization that could result in an untenable lead weight on operating costs if they cannot attract OL riders west of W. Rox for more than the 2 commute peaks.

F-Line, you're continuing to argue a point where everyone knows you're right without actually addressing the issue. Needham Junction would be a peak-driven station. That's what the data says, and that's what the facts say. No one is contesting that, the same way that no one is contesting that it would be inefficient to serve the station.

The fact is that if you set this project up as Needham having a choice between the current CR arrangement and new GL service with no easy transit option for commuters, they will reject the Green Line. I guarantee it. The T may not like that, but as you've said, their legal hands are tied. Current riders losing their commute will outvote and out-yell the "gee, this would be nice" advocates of the Green Line, particularly once the bicycle lobby - which already believes they've won in Newton with the 99-year lease of the ROW - joins the fight on the commuters' side.

It's not tenable for the T to keep providing service to Needham given SS capacity constraints, and it's not efficient to run OL to Needham, but one of those things will have to happen. The only question is whether Rozzie and West Roxbury get mass transit or not.
 
The easiest way to start would be to run the Green Line to Needham Heights, build a cheap station somewhere it wouldn't interfere with the CR station. Let the locals learn that Green Line is far superior, and then they'll happily give up empty CR trains.
 

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