The Orange Line Thread

[F-Line to Dudley]

What is the limitation to adding capacity on the OL? Can headways be shortened? Is there a bottleneck somewhere?

Cars, cars, cars, cars. We're still running the same exact fleet that was going over the Washington St. El a quarter century ago when there were 3 fewer intermediate stops on the Forest Hills end and everything was running in 4-car trains. They're two dozen cars (i.e. 4 six-car trains) short of what they need for rush hour. Go to Wellington at 8:00am or 5:00pm and look in the yard...it's virtually empty of any spares.

The new order in the request for bids was supposed to be 144 cars vs. the 120 they've currently got. With possibility of it being expanded out to 162 with option orders.

I don't ride the orange line much, but it seems this all needs to be done with a little more urgency. These cars aren't even out to bid yet, so you're looking at what- at least 5 years before new cars start rolling? The current fleet is held together by a very flammable string. I'd like to see a little more movement, unless i am missing something.

Also, the link says the red and orange line cars will be built in Mass. Is there any way that will actually happen?

Just about any manufacturer worth their salt can build in-state. Mainly because if you ever want to do business with the MTA in New York you have to be able to set up shop in NY State at the drop of a hat. It's kind of a superficial thing to begin with. All the parts and carbody shells are prefabbed and manufacturered elsewhere, then shipped here for final assembly. For electronics and stuff the systems are usually shipped partially complete and the onsite techs do the rest. So it's not like they need a massively-staffed facility with all the assembly line robots to do this from the ground up at some modern facility. They can rent a temporary warehouse somewhere. That's what Breda did for the final assembly of the Type 8's.


It's not known who submitted the initial spec bids. I would think--since the bid process was changed after the Type 8 fiasco to favor experience amongst the final-cut bidders over the outright low bid--that this will massively favor Siemens. Since they built the Blue Line cars only 5 years ago, they are running very well, heavy rail cars have not advanced to any sort of new-generation tech in that time, and the same exact make in slightly different-dimension carbody will serve Orange and Red. The Hawker-Siddeley Orange + Blue cars were the same vehicle in the same combo batch, and the fact that Blue uses overhead and third rail makes no difference to the build because either power source is the same voltage. Red is no different from Orange or Blue; until now its car orders have just never timed within a decade close to an Orange or Blue order.

Provided the T does not start doodling all over the blueprints in crayon for another round of self-defeating overcustomization, Siemens would be able to dust off the Blue 0700 design and start pumping a new batch batch in Orange + Red dimensions much quicker than any other manufacturer. With a shorter testing phase. Which ought to lower the unit cost a lot for such a humongous order. The only possible new wrinkle is designing the trainlining components on the Red cars so they can interoperate with the existing Bombardier 01800's. That can happen this time unlike the fleet segregation we currently have because the 01900's would have the same kind of AC traction motors as the 1994-era 01800's. All the older ones are DC motors, and those don't play so nice in a mixed set with AC's.


It'd be real interesting if Bombardier were the final bidder. They're #1 in the market for heavy rail cars and commuter rail coaches, Top 3 for LRV's. They're almost a lock to finish Top 3 in any procurement the T bids out. But that company has a significant ownership stake in MBCR, which given the controversial politics of our commuter rail contract and its upcoming renewal that strongly favors MBCR would bring about HOWLS! of conflict-of-interest accusations from every gov't watchdog. The T luckily hasn't bought any Bombardier equipment since MBCR got the contract 9 years ago, but...given that they built the 01800's and have a lot of near-identical Red/Orange designs in active service in NYC and elsewhere they're the most logical #2 behind Siemens if strictly talking equipment quality and compatibility.

 

[FenwayResident]

I'm fairly certain that the Red, Green and Orange are operating well above their crush load capacity during rush hour.

I can confirm this for the GL. If I try to board a train at Copley going outbound around 5:00 - 5:30pm, I sometimes have to wait for 2-3 trains to go by before I can fit in one.

 

[Matthew]

I see it coming when above ground for the B. I don't even bother riding it outbound at rush hour anymore. There's no room.

 

[rinserepeat]

The OL runs well below capacity right now, and there are no bottlenecks. OL's capacity issues come from car shortages.

I'm fairly certain that the Red, Green and Orange are operating well above their crush load capacity during rush hour.

There's a rush-hour bus bottleneck between Rozzie square and Forest Hills on Washington Street. Some days you can walk faster than the bus can take you.

 

[choo]

I see it coming when above ground for the B. I don't even bother riding it outbound at rush hour anymore. There's no room.

Not to shift the conversation too much away from the OL focus, but this fact is precisely the reason why when I was looking for a place to buy, I stayed away from Fenway, Brookline, A-B. I couldn't bear to take the Green Line. I jumped the river to be on the red line. The existing density and schools hide some of these shortcomings, but I think with better service on the GL and OL, the areas will take over even more. Demand on both is way outstripping supply.

 

[Matthew]

That's why I'm sticking in a place close enough to the 57 bus to have both options.

For the Orange Line, I don't know what you can do. There's some key bus routes nearby but they're pretty slow. I guess there's commuter rail trains that could be used to get to Ruggles or Forest Hills. I haven't tried that at rush, but I do generally see large crowds on the Ruggles CR platform at that hour.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

That's why I'm sticking in a place close enough to the 57 bus to have both options.

For the Orange Line, I don't know what you can do. There's some key bus routes nearby but they're pretty slow. I guess there's commuter rail trains that could be used to get to Ruggles or Forest Hills. I haven't tried that at rush, but I do generally see large crowds on the Ruggles CR platform at that hour.

Needham is the only CR line that stops at Forest Hills, and its schedule is permanently pathetic.

The only long-term solution to this is the 1-stop Rozzie extension to eliminate the 8 bus route overlap on the crawl from Forest Hills to the Washington/Belgrade Ave. split. 5 routes terminate at or pass through Rozzie Sq. The only ones that should be duplicating from Forest Hills are the 34, 34E, 40, and 50. And I'm not sure the 50 out of Cleary Sq. matters when the 32 hits FH out of Cleary. So it really could be whittled down to just the 2-1/2 routes that stay on Washington into Dedham with all others terminating at Rozzie.


Low-hanging fruit, but it'll take a new City Hall regime because Menino has been wholly consistent for 20 years + 10 on the Council at shitting all over JP transit and resultant quality of life factors.

 

[George_Apley]

There's a rush-hour bus bottleneck between Rozzie square and Forest Hills on Washington Street. Some days you can walk faster than the bus can take you.

And that right there is exactly why bringing the Orange Line to Rozzie Village is one of the simplest streamlining of bus routes in the entire system. There's no excuse for them to not be planning that now. Roslindale is the one stop on the Needham Line that can support dual-mode side-by-side, so it wouldn't disrupt any existing service to accomplish as bring OL all the way to WRox would.

 

[winstonoboogie]

It's not known who submitted the initial spec bids. I would think--since the bid process was changed after the Type 8 fiasco to favor experience amongst the final-cut bidders over the outright low bid--that this will massively favor Siemens. Since they built the Blue Line cars only 5 years ago, they are running very well, heavy rail cars have not advanced to any sort of new-generation tech in that time, and the same exact make in slightly different-dimension carbody will serve Orange and Red. The Hawker-Siddeley Orange + Blue cars were the same vehicle in the same combo batch, and the fact that Blue uses overhead and third rail makes no difference to the build because either power source is the same voltage. Red is no different from Orange or Blue; until now its car orders have just never timed within a decade close to an Orange or Blue order.

Provided the T does not start doodling all over the blueprints in crayon for another round of self-defeating overcustomization, Siemens would be able to dust off the Blue 0700 design and start pumping a new batch batch in Orange + Red dimensions much quicker than any other manufacturer. With a shorter testing phase. Which ought to lower the unit cost a lot for such a humongous order. The only possible new wrinkle is designing the trainlining components on the Red cars so they can interoperate with the existing Bombardier 01800's. That can happen this time unlike the fleet segregation we currently have because the 01900's would have the same kind of AC traction motors as the 1994-era 01800's. All the older ones are DC motors, and those don't play so nice in a mixed set with AC's.


.

Since completing the Blue Line order, Siemens has shown no interest in bidding on any other North American heavy rail order (their only other one other than the Blue Line was the Tren Urbano order). Although the Blue Line cars perform well, Siemens probably lost their shirt on the contract. The stainless steel shells were built at their plant in Austria, since their California plant only does conventional steel work for LRV's. They sub-contracted with a firm named TTA to assemble the Blue Line cars in NY state, but then TTA closed down the plant just as the shells started coming in from Austria. Siemens had to move the work to CAF's plant in Elmira. The Blue Line cars were also supposed to have GSI trucks, but GSI went out of business just as Siemens began initial work on fabricating the carbody shells and Siemens had to switch over to trucks supplied by their competitor, Kawasaki, to finish the cars as Siemens does not build a rapid transit truck that meets North American specs. Siemens has not bid on rapid transit car orders for Chicago, Washington, BART, and Miami that all came up after the Blue Line order. I doubt they are going to change their position and bid on this one.

The MBTA has not even put out the request for bids for the new Orange and Red Line cars yet, Dr. Scott however has been telling groups that they expect to request bids this fall (which should be soon). I think they had to wait until they knew how much money the legislature was going to give them before they could proceed with the order.

The new Red Line cars will not be compatible with the 01800s. They 01800s have a sometimes problematic GE A.C. propulsion system that is 20 years old and that never proved popular (GE no longer builds propulsion systems for rapid transit or light rail cars, a business they were in for about 100 years). Also, the new cars are probably going to be configured as A-cars/B-Cars, with only the A-cars having a cab at one end.

 

[winstonoboogie]

And that right there is exactly why bringing the Orange Line to Rozzie Village is one of the simplest streamlining of bus routes in the entire system. There's no excuse for them to not be planning that now. Roslindale is the one stop on the Needham Line that can support dual-mode side-by-side, so it wouldn't disrupt any existing service to accomplish as bring OL all the way to WRox would.

The Orange Line yard at Forest Hills parks seven-trains (42 cars) over night. Where would this yard be relocated if the Orange Line was extended to Roslindale Sq.? Presumably the new "main line" tracks for the extension would make use of most of the space occupied by the present yard. They can't just stuff those cars into Wellington yard, since most of the trains parked at Forest Hills are used for the morning northbound departures before the southbounds out of Wellington yard begin to arrive. I don't see a lot of room around Roslindale Sq. for a yard that can hold 42 Orange Line cars.

 

[dshoost88]

The Orange Line yard at Forest Hills parks seven-trains (42 cars) over night. Where would this yard be relocated if the Orange Line was extended to Roslindale Sq.? Presumably the new "main line" tracks for the extension would make use of most of the space occupied by the present yard. They can't just stuff those cars into Wellington yard, since most of the trains parked at Forest Hills are used for the morning northbound departures before the southbounds out of Wellington yard begin to arrive. I don't see a lot of room around Roslindale Sq. for a yard that can hold 42 Orange Line cars.

It wouldn't have to be relocated, would it? Just because Forest Hills would no longer be the end of the line doesn't mean they cannot store trains there. Heck, there are two orange line stops north of Wellington and the orange line still manages competently with trains going to-and-from Wellington.

 

[Roxxma]

As far as new Orange Line equipment, I'd like to see the MBTA consider something from the Movia family or something similar to the BVG H Series family with interconnection between cars that allows passengers to move throughout the full length of the train. This could help a lot with capacity issues.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The Orange Line yard at Forest Hills parks seven-trains (42 cars) over night. Where would this yard be relocated if the Orange Line was extended to Roslindale Sq.? Presumably the new "main line" tracks for the extension would make use of most of the space occupied by the present yard. They can't just stuff those cars into Wellington yard, since most of the trains parked at Forest Hills are used for the morning northbound departures before the southbounds out of Wellington yard begin to arrive. I don't see a lot of room around Roslindale Sq. for a yard that can hold 42 Orange Line cars.

It's pre-provisioned. Have a look at the overhead view: http://goo.gl/maps/2GGYL.

Right now it's a 4-track yard with 2 trainsets of storage per track and one track in the tunnel that goes longer. The asphalt driveway continuing beyond end-of-track is +1 extra trainsets' storage for each track, and then you can see that the *very* overgrown ROW fence with the Arboretum continues to Arboretum Rd. where it shrinks back to mainline as if the tracks would merge back.

2 trainsets--one mainline track's worth of displaced trainsets--goes on the asphalt on extended Tracks 3 & 4. 1 of 2 Needham Line tracks gets displaced by the mainline extension, traded off for an extra 2-track passing siding somewhere between Rozzie and West Roxbury. That creates +1 trainset's storage on OL Track 3 past the asphalt before the shrinking fence merges it back onto the mainline. The 4th displaced trainset...depends on how they configure the merge. And then...depending on what track inside the tunnel can hold the extra they either keep that capacity at FH or lose a second trainset. But 1-2 is the most they lose. They'd lay over on-platform at Rozzie and alternate platforms like they do at Oak Grove. The OG tail track is totally unused in regular service unless they have to park a disabled train out of the way, and Forest Hills is virtually empty during service hours so the line's layover capacity demands outside of Wellington are very small. They may just fill both Rozzie platform tracks for 5:00am like they do at OG in lieu of that tail track, and then just stuff FH yard with what it'll bear overnight.

 

[winstonoboogie]

It wouldn't have to be relocated, would it? Just because Forest Hills would no longer be the end of the line doesn't mean they cannot store trains there. Heck, there are two orange line stops north of Wellington and the orange line still manages competently with trains going to-and-from Wellington.

The problem isn't that the storage yard wouldn't be at the end of the line, the problem is that the extension would make use of most of the existing storage yard, and that space would have to be replaced.

 

[winstonoboogie]

But 1-2 is the most they lose. They'd lay over on-platform at Rozzie and alternate platforms like they do at Oak Grove. The OG tail track is totally unused in regular service unless they have to park a disabled train out of the way, and Forest Hills is virtually empty during service hours so the line's layover capacity demands outside of Wellington are very small. They may just fill both Rozzie platform tracks for 5:00am like they do at OG in lieu of that tail track, and then just stuff FH yard with what it'll bear overnight.

They do not park any trains overnight at Oak Grove, the first trains of the morning deadhead from Wellington to Oak Grove. It is normal practice not to park any rapid transit trains overnight at the terminal platforms. You have to keep them open for access for work trains and access for snow trains in the winter. So you are still short of space just for the existing requirements for overnight storage. Also, since this yard would have to provide access from both the east and west (you don't want trains pulling out from the yard to the east blocking the main line as they change ends to head west), I don't think extending the existing storage tracks west would provide enough room to hold six more cars, while providing an interlocking and access to the west, all within the space provide by the retaining wall.

Remember also that the fleet will be expanded to 150 cars just to meet existing demand, and if an extension to Roslindale ever came to be, more cars would be needed. Even if it only adds three minute running time in each direction, that means adding two train sets in the peak to maintain a 4-minute headway. Not all of those extra cars would be parked at Wellington, some more might have to be parked at the south. When proposing any new rail extension, a key issue is where will the car storage space be for the expanded fleet. Just look at how big an issue that became for GLX.

 

[omaja]

Well, one of the nice things about that stretch is that it's currently fairly industrial, including this lot that could help support an expanded yard.

Think the MBTA could make a bit of a land grab there right now without too much push back.

 

[HenryAlan]

There's a rush-hour bus bottleneck between Rozzie square and Forest Hills on Washington Street. Some days you can walk faster than the bus can take you.

Which is very frustrating given how easy a Rozzie OL extension would be.

 

[winstonoboogie]

Well, one of the nice things about that stretch is that it's currently fairly industrial, including this lot that could help support an expanded yard.

Think the MBTA could make a bit of a land grab there right now without too much push back.

The Needham Line gets in between the Orange Line and that space

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

They do not park any trains overnight at Oak Grove, the first trains of the morning deadhead from Wellington to Oak Grove. It is normal practice not to park any rapid transit trains overnight at the terminal platforms. You have to keep them open for access for work trains and access for snow trains in the winter. So you are still short of space just for the existing requirements for overnight storage. Also, since this yard would have to provide access from both the east and west (you don't want trains pulling out from the yard to the east blocking the main line as they change ends to head west), I don't think extending the existing storage tracks west would provide enough room to hold six more cars, while providing an interlocking and access to the west, all within the space provide by the retaining wall.

Remember also that the fleet will be expanded to 150 cars just to meet existing demand, and if an extension to Roslindale ever came to be, more cars would be needed. Even if it only adds three minute running time in each direction, that means adding two train sets in the peak to maintain a 4-minute headway. Not all of those extra cars would be parked at Wellington, some more might have to be parked at the south. When proposing any new rail extension, a key issue is where will the car storage space be for the expanded fleet. Just look at how big an issue that became for GLX.

Green has 4 westbound branches with 3 downtown turnbacks, and soon-to-be 2 northbound branches. Each branch has its own minimum peak-hour car requirements. The trainsets operate in some 2-car consists and some 3-car consists, and are required by ADA to match one low-floor car with one high-floor car to make the numbers watch. Orange is a single end-to-ender with a single fleet permanently run in 6-car sets. They are not remotely comparable on ops.

Orange's overnight storage needs at the far end of the line are nothing compared to Red's, and Alewife Yard only has storage for a maximum of 4 trainsets on the tail tracks behind the station. They do indeed stuff both platform tracks at the station full on the overnight to make it an even 6 trainsets for the first run at 5:00, and have been doing that ever since Alewife opened in 1985. Granted, that is in an enclosed indoor station. But they do pack it full after the nightly work train is finished.


Yes, you do have enough room to extend the storage tracks. Go to Bing Maps bird's eye, which has a much better close-up than Google and a winter shot where the Arboretum property line is clear: http://binged.it/14K71oS.

Subway track chart: http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/MBTA_Rapid_Transit_Track_Map.

The way the yard is laid out the middle two tracks are the mainline tracks coming off the platform. So the one on the wall and the one bordering the Needham Line are the turnouts and the middle pair is straight. If the mainline continued in this configuration you would have storage tracks on both sides and no crossing traffic whatsoever for midday layovers.

Notice on Bing that top track turnout hugging the retaining wall has a derelict second bumper and a couple sticks of buried rail about 100 ft. before the chain-link security fence. At some point in history that turnout was longer. And depending on how much space there is inside the tunnel on that turnout that may correspond exactly to +1 trainset of extra storage above its current capacity. But let's assume for argument's sake that the tunnel doesn't quite have that much slack space. It measures 400 ft. from the edge of the current bumpers to the front of that electrical box. An OL set is 390 ft. So everything does have the guaranteed space to store +1 more trainset than it currently does. All of the merging back into the center mainline tracks happens behind the electrical box on the 450 ft. between the box and the area directly behind the car wash on Washington. Such that everything is merged back into its 2 OL + 1 Needham mainline configuration before the Arboretum Rd. stone arch overpass. Arboretum fence is easily visible all the way to the bridge. It's a very generous amount of slack space to merge tracks. The West Roxbury passing siding on Needham only takes half that much running room to turn out or turn in.



Now, Needham outbound track has to be cannibalized for this with only the single inbound track remaining. So if you lift 1 CR track at the portal and install a turnout from your existing turnout track you get a second storage track from the inbound side with room for 2 trainsets before it has to merge back into the existing turnout then back into the mainline (I measured this leaving 100 ft. of space for a switch and merge).

6 trainsets of storage next to your thru mainline tracks. Now, I don't know how they get 7 on there today as all 4 tracks are about equal length beyond the FH platforms and the two outer ones need a few feet's running room past the platform to peel out. To make it work they have to at least be blocking 1 platform's worth of switches overnight with a stored train. But then again, Alewife blocks BOTH platforms on the overnight so that is hardly a discouraged practice. There is nothing stopping you from filling up 6 on the storage tracks and 2 on the FH platforms just like they do at Alewife for 8 total and a +1 gain over what they store overnight inside the tunnel at FH today.


I don't see the problem here. All of this was pre-designed in the early 1980's for continuing the line...hence the center mainline tracks with turnouts on both sides, barren paved area of conspicuous length, and Arboretum fence in conspicuous shape of a track merge. They didn't do a design revision when they bailed on the rest of the extension to West Roxbury...they just didn't fill up the all the land they set aside and landscaped at the time for this yard. Wellington is oversize for what it holds...it was supposed to accept 24 transferred Blue Line cars for the rebuild-to-Orange program before that was scrapped, and they held on to dozens of the previous-generation 01100 cars on the property in dead storage for 6 or 7 years after their retirement. They don't have to make any changes to their storage space to handle a 144-162 car order. Or make any service changes to absorb the Assembly Sq. infill. A +1 to Rozzie is not going to do a hell of a lot either when FH Yard is almost empty during the service day. And I don't see how Orange is going to fall on its face when Alewife gets by with every single night feeding 2 tighter-headway branches out of an even smaller yard.

 

[davem]

Were talking about a one stop extension, not a whole new branch. The load isn't going to require any more cars then what's planned for the next order. The yard could easily be expanded to double its current size, even without taking that extra parcel. One of the needham line tracks would likely be canabalized for the OL extension, so we would only loose one track from the current yard, which would be expanded. There is also a ton of room for tail tracks for further storage after the one stop extension, even if a passing siding for the needham line is added further down. Im really not seeing how this is an issue.


Edit: f-line beat me to it, and then some.