What would you do to get the T out of its financial mess?

Westie's somewhat right in terms of I-90 to the airport. But I would've wanted that to be a triple bore tunnel carrying rail to the airport. I would've easily sacrificed the CAT for that.

Refresh my memory: did the original Turnpike extension bridge over to the airport or stop somewhere in Boston?

The reason why I say tearing the Central Artery down without the Big Dig was not an option is because of the context of it being a major 2-digit Interstate - it's an entirely different animal than the Overpasses that are coming down, or even Interstate Spurs - it's not something you can just casually axe and forget about.

I disagree with whighlander in as much as he predicts a doomsday scenario, but the circumstances that would lead to such a thing anyway are impossible.

In the case of funneling rail to the airport in a tunnel, if the choice is between that OR extending the Pike, it's a lot more achievable than 'rail plus eliminating the end of the Pike.'

But then you cycle back to whether rail to the airport is a better value proposition than the rail link - you probably only have enough capital to do one.
 
The original TX tied in, quite poorly, to the central artery, and often forced airport-bound drivers onto city streets for a few blocks to reach the Sumner Tunnel. So I do agree with Westie about the improvements made by the TWT. Just that it should have been built with transit. I think Dukakis advocated this but somehow lost the fight.
 
The original TX tied in, quite poorly, to the central artery, and often forced airport-bound drivers onto city streets for a few blocks to reach the Sumner Tunnel. So I do agree with Westie about the improvements made by the TWT. Just that it should have been built with transit. I think Dukakis advocated this but somehow lost the fight.

Those plans likely went the way of the Rail Link - chewed up and spat out by a runaway budget leading to misguided attempts to deflate the cost any way possible.
 
If you are coming from the west, or the south, the Big Dig has made getting to/from Logan Airport a hell of a lot easier and smoother.

I do agree a transit link should have been included.
 
If you are coming from the west, or the south, the Big Dig has made getting to/from Logan Airport a hell of a lot easier and smoother.

I do agree a transit link should have been included.

Infrastructurally it's still possible. The slurry walls go down deep enough to support a lower tunnel, it's re-filled with clean soil 100% clear of utilities/rocks/historical sensitivity (always the hardest part of construction), and it would not be subject to the riskiest-engineering portion of the highway tunnel--the unlined slurry walls acting as tunnel walls for increased lane width--because the narrower ROW supports a standard inner wall for waterproofing. The extreme cost bloat in the most recent Link proposal is all tied up in the stupid tri-portal approaches from the southside and the Central Station with a platform too short to take almost anything Amtrak or some of the longest Providence and Worcester rush-hour consists. Getting to the lower level of the Artery from South Station, dancing around building pilings, squeezing between tunnel levels, and sticking partially underneath the Ft. Point Channel is the tricky part...actually scooping out the fill and pouring (well-supervised) tunnel lining under the Big Dig is a relatively brisk and efficient job. They can probably work it with a mini tunnel boring machine since it's all known-quantity soft fill. And North Station isn't too bad because the veer-off from the Artery alignment is all under land cleared out in the mid-90's with this project in mind.

Where the proposal gets stupid is the extra bling larded on: the Old Colony, Fairmount, and Fitchburg portals, and the Central Station. The Southampton/Cabot yards to SS to Artery connection is hard enough and fraught with enough mission-creep peril. But the rest dilutes the focus and speculative utilization of the tunnel into a mess more dubious than Silver Line Phase III, and each extra segment has its own overrun risk. Keep it simple, stupid. Put off the frills until some later phase. The greatest utilization is going to be Point A to Point B, South Station to North Station, conjoined NEC-fed lines to conjoined NH Main (non-Fitchburg) -fed lines. You can always provision a cut-out off the main tunnel that can be added to later service the Old Colony, Fairmount, and Fitchburg (but I don't think demand merits, because alt routes to Middleboro/Cape and Ayer/Fitchburg are possible with similar travel times from a single-bore Link and lost ridership from Porter-Littleton, JFK-Greenbush/Plymouth/Bridgewater, and Newmarket-Fairmount ain't gonna justify the extra pieces). You can always prep a wall cavity to add a Central Station if demand merits. But putting those off till later IS the safety margin for overruns in the main tunnel, and they better frickin' know by now (they don't...South Coast FAIL says otherwise) the perils of treating a megaproject with tons of moving parts as a single monolith.

It's almost like it was over-proposed to be self-defeating. But I do think it's buildable if somebody reanimates it with a more essentials-focused design that enforces a tighter, risk-managed ship. The hard part of Link construction is a really small portion of the total build. It's not a "Here we go again"...we have to get over that trauma or we'll never want to take on a major civil engineering challenge again.
 
What I don't understand is why not simply shift the focus onto making South Station 'Central Station in all but name?'

What does creating a Central Station do for you that designing a better South Station wouldn't?
 
What I don't understand is why not simply shift the focus onto making South Station 'Central Station in all but name?'

What does creating a Central Station do for you that designing a better South Station wouldn't?

"Menino Station".

But, yes, exactly. What purpose does this serve? Is the Blue Line direct transfer that important to drop another $B on a crippled, traffic-clogging station that the prime-most trains on the schedule that you're building this thing for are too long to use and have to bypass. The platforms are going to sit on a slight grade...they'll actually slope down perceptibly in one direction in addition to being too short. It's the only way the tunnel can work with achievable end-to-end grades. It's patently, functionally, anatomically absurd. It only exists in the proposal so somebody can build a monument to themselves.


Now, I think Central Station works if 2 of the 4 Link tracks are a Red Line branch spurred off the Cabot Yard leads providing a real N-S rapid transit connection for the first time since the Atlantic Ave. El stopped running. Because then it's a minimalist claustrophobic platform fittable with only a few feet of wall widening, and gets called "Aquarium Under". It can fit 6 rapid transit cars easy on flat ground without sloping...and the RR trains can just blast by on the other 2 tracks behind the fence. Or build the cut, 2-track the tunnel, and leave the empty space for the rapid transit berth to be added later if you're cost-concerned. But don't build it as some 4-track, 2-island platform subterranean Back Bay that gums up the schedule, can't be used by half the trains, and gives passengers vertigo with the disconcerting slope.


Stupid or disingenuous...it's garbage like this in the proposals that makes you wonder. The tri-portal arrangement is another one. It would cost a $B or two less to relocate the Fairmount Line behind South Bay Shopping Center on an alignment joining the Old Colony at a single portal, instead of requiring a whole duplicate build. The space is mostly there for the re-route because that's exactly where the line curved in the 19th century before it was realigned on a straight shot into Southampton. Are the planners stupid or disingenuous for not seeing this? Are they stupid or disingenuous for not seeing that you can get to Fitchburg just as fast on an HSR'd Lowell Line by cutting down the Stony Brook Branch from North Chelmsford, at lower cost than building a whole separate portal? Are they stupid or disingenuous for saying they're gonna thru-route EVERY commuter line before asking themselves..."Who wants to go from Greenbush to Fitchburg or Needham to Rockport, and where the hell are we going to find underground platform space for all those configurations?" And on and on. Follow the 2-digit interstates...that's where the demand's going to be: 93/95/Pike::Worcester/Providence/Lowell/Haverhill. The interstate lines. The ones that carry both (or could carry both) CR and Amtrak. Maybe a few Eastern Route or Cape-via-Stoughton/Taunton/Middleboro trains sprinkled in for good measure, but that's it. We have known for 70 years what the trunk corridors for thru traffic are. Are they stupid or disingenuous for proposing something that completely obfuscates that?
 
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Stupid or disingenuous...it's garbage like this in the proposals that makes you wonder. The tri-portal arrangement is another one. It would cost a $B or two less to relocate the Fairmount Line behind South Bay Shopping Center on an alignment joining the Old Colony at a single portal, instead of requiring a whole duplicate build. The space is mostly there for the re-route because that's exactly where the line curved in the 19th century before it was realigned on a straight shot into Southampton. Are the planners stupid or disingenuous for not seeing this? Are they stupid or disingenuous for not seeing that you can get to Fitchburg just as fast on an HSR'd Lowell Line by cutting down the Stony Brook Branch from North Chelmsford, at lower cost than building a whole separate portal? Are they stupid or disingenuous for saying they're gonna thru-route EVERY commuter line before asking themselves..."Who wants to go from Greenbush to Fitchburg or Needham to Rockport, and where the hell are we going to find underground platform space for all those configurations?" And on and on. Follow the 2-digit interstates...that's where the demand's going to be: 93/95/Pike::Worcester/Providence/Lowell/Haverhill. The interstate lines. The ones that carry both (or could carry both) CR and Amtrak. Maybe a few Eastern Route or Cape-via-Stoughton/Taunton/Middleboro trains sprinkled in for good measure, but that's it. We have known for 70 years what the trunk corridors for thru traffic are. Are they stupid or disingenuous for proposing something that completely obfuscates that?

There's an argument in here somewhere that you don't necessarily through run all the lines because Greenbush and Fitchburg need a connection, but because all the lines should have a roughly equal demand to either terminate at North or South Station, and if they're all using the Link anyway why not through run them.

Of course, that's a disingenuous argument at best - but it's there.

The best option really is re-engineering South Station to be Central-esque Station, and having all your non-through-running trains terminate there. North Station would be 'demoted,' after a fashion, from terminal status.

For this to work, though, you really need 6 tracks in the Link - four going south and two going north, and I don't see room for a rapid transit option in that, except for a Fairmount-style rapid shuttle option.

I'd also want to study whether or not we can connect Springfield-Worcester to the Cape on some kind of revitalized Cape Codder or Inlander Amtrak routing, but that might be an exercise in futility.
 
There's an argument in here somewhere that you don't necessarily through run all the lines because Greenbush and Fitchburg need a connection, but because all the lines should have a roughly equal demand to either terminate at North or South Station, and if they're all using the Link anyway why not through run them.

Of course, that's a disingenuous argument at best - but it's there.

The best option really is re-engineering South Station to be Central-esque Station, and having all your non-through-running trains terminate there. North Station would be 'demoted,' after a fashion, from terminal status.

For this to work, though, you really need 6 tracks in the Link - four going south and two going north, and I don't see room for a rapid transit option in that, except for a Fairmount-style rapid shuttle option.

I'd also want to study whether or not we can connect Springfield-Worcester to the Cape on some kind of revitalized Cape Codder or Inlander Amtrak routing, but that might be an exercise in futility.

The tunnel can fit a max of 4 tracks on the Artery footprint. Central Station was proposed for maybe 6(?), SS and NS 6-8 where the underground footprints could be wider and more level. They don't need anything stopping in the middle...CS would be an epic clog if they actually tried that, in addition to having the crippled platform.

Now, the reason why they can slice-and-dice it as half-RR and half-RT is that, unlike all the tunnels in NYC, these aren't 1-track-per-bore digs where you're fucked if a train breaks down in the tube. The Link would have everything side-by-side with frequent crossovers. It's not going to be rendered useless by a breakdown, and it's much easier to dispatch asynchronously with 2 crossover-able tracks going in the same direction if there's a schedule slot open with nothing heading in the opposite direction. That kind of dance happens every single hour through maximum-overlap spots on the NEC like Ruggles. Throw on top of that that the there's a hell of a lot less thru traffic potential north/south through Boston than NYC, and you can see that 4 tracks is actually a bit generous for capacity. I would just build it as 2 tracks + 2 empty berths to keep startup costs low, build as 1 thru NEC-to-NH Main shot with provisions for the extra portals...then figure out the sequence of add-ons 10 years, new studies, and new appropriations later. The rapid transit half would draw more riders in my opinion, but there's nothing stopping them from opting for 4 RR tracks and extra portals later (though if they don't combine the Fairmount + Old Colony into one I can never take this seriously). Emphasis later. You do have to build and crest demand, after all.

The monolith is either stupid or disingenous...there's at least 5 pieces (2 extra tracks, 3 extra portals, 1 extra station) that are in no way gonna make a difference for the tunnel's first dozen years of ramp-up operation. And they are ALL provisioned for, and ALL can be acted on individually. Just like nothing about South Coast FAIL requires it to be a monolith. Virtually every piece can be built separately and ramped up gradually. A straight NEC-to-NH Main build can handle Providence, Worcester, Lowell, Haverhill, Franklin, Needham, Stoughton/South Coast/Cape-via-Taunton-and-Middleboro, Newburyport, Rockport, and Fitchburg-via-Lowell traffic depending on extent of electrification and use of the same kinds of dual-mode locomotives that Amtrak/Metro North/NJ Transit use every day in NYC. The ONLY lines shut out from the base build are Fairmount (to Fairmount), Greenbush, Kingston/Plymouth, north-of-Middleboro, and east-of-Ayer. Consult the Blue Book...that is not very much ridership as a % of the system. And I think not even close to justifying the 2x'ing of the project cost to build the extra pieces. They've got more routing options on the base build than they'll know what to do with. It's stupid or disingenuous to serve it up as build all bling at once or it's not worth building at all.
 
Instead of squeezing more through- IF they did this. obviously its mostly hypothetical, I think the fairmount line being turned to rapid transit so you have frequent service in the city and a strong N-S link. Then connect amtrak as well so you can have continuous Canada-Maine-Boston-NYC service. In reality, will there ever be a strong continous demand for people to take the commuter rail from the south and continue north. Few would actually have that commute, and if they did they would have to hope that their line from the south is the same branch they need on the north.
 
Instead of squeezing more through- IF they did this. obviously its mostly hypothetical, I think the fairmount line being turned to rapid transit so you have frequent service in the city and a strong N-S link. Then connect amtrak as well so you can have continuous Canada-Maine-Boston-NYC service. In reality, will there ever be a strong continous demand for people to take the commuter rail from the south and continue north. Few would actually have that commute, and if they did they would have to hope that their line from the south is the same branch they need on the north.

For Amtrak, you wouldn't want Canada-Maine.

You would want New York City - Montreal, Boston - Montreal, Boston - Toronto, and Montreal - Ottawa - Toronto.

Maine service would be Boston - Portland, if anything.
 
I read somewhere that SEPTA has not gotten enough through- ridership benefits to make it full use of its own "central station" between its formerly separate Reading and Suburban stations: most people just want to get to Center City, so the costs of creating thru routes (sheduling, balancing and confusing time tables, separate from the original capital costs) have made them seriously consider redesignating the routes radially instead of through (so trains could either turn back or if they did run through, they could change identity )

All this is to suggest that the through market is, as F-line says,just Amtrak and a few lines, not all lines.

Also, the need for Bostons central station can be met more cheaply at places like a Red-Blue MGH(cheaper than a Red-branch Aquarium Under) a Blue-CR Wonderland, and well enough on those NH lines that will get to SS/silver.
 
The point of running trains through is to keep platforms open at stations in the city core. Keep dwell times in the busiest station to a minimum. Instead you do all turns and layovers at the much less busy terminals.

The effect is that it makes it much easier to commute from edge to edge with maybe one connection. With short headways in the peak, that's not such a big deal. Really, the vision is to run them almost rapid-transit style, like the RER.
 
The original TX tied in, quite poorly, to the central artery, and often forced airport-bound drivers onto city streets for a few blocks to reach the Sumner Tunnel. So I do agree with Westie about the improvements made by the TWT. Just that it should have been built with transit. I think Dukakis advocated this but somehow lost the fight.

No -- Dukakis originally advocated depressing the Central Artery in a trench with roads crossing it and very much buildable on air rights -- much like the Tuirnpike extension in the Back Bay

For various reasons, he was kicked out of the State House and Gov, King then proposed the building the 3rd Harbor Tunnel to the Airport. i think that there was consideration of a subway line as well as part of the tunnel.

Then for various reasons, including lobster salad sandwitches, King was booted out and Dukakis came back

Fred Salvucci then suggsted the compromise that evolved into the Big Dig -- first build the tunnel to the Airport and then bury the Central Artery with 75% of the land above devoted to parks.
 
Talk about hyjacking a thread -- this makes my most direct hyjack a case of a frat prank as compared to a guy waving a gun on an Eastern Airlines flight shouting take theees plane to Cuuuuuba


We are ostensibly talking about what "you would do to get the T out of its current financial mess" -- instead the thread has become "how do you multiply the current financial mess by the NS-Rail Link -- aka the Big Dig redux"

Which one of the people on the forum is really M.S. Dukakis in "web-drag" ?
 
Back to the topic of this thread, various interests seem to be warming up for the new season of Funding the T.

Lately some have been calling for putting more T costs on motorists and Mass Residents outside the metro area who purportedly still bask in the glow of Boston and Cambridge.

Unfortunately the logic that all motorists in the state benefit from lowered competition for roadway by T riders can be extended to education: Parents who take their kids out of public schools and their kids to private schools or home-school them, benefit the remaining public school students with lower resource consumption, and thus ought to be compensated. The connection is far stronger and more direct for this example, however, so a school voucher/rebate system should be set up before less direct effects are taken on.
 
Compensated for VOLUNTARILY making the decision to not avail themself of the public education system? I'm sorry, that is not the point of this thread. Please create a new one if you wish to discuss this. I would participate.

I am more interested in participating in a thread about getting the T out of it's financial mess now though.
 
Maybe its time for a T mob.

"That's a nice car you've got parked on the street. Be a shame if anything were to happen to it. Care to donate to the T fund? I can sign you up for $10 a week. I suggest you apply this "I love the T" bumper sticker tonight"
 
I live in Brighton, and work in Allston and Brookline.

The first week of the kids being back was terrible. Every single street was jammed, traffic was worse then I've ever seen it (granted I only got a car for this job this year) Over 50% of the plates were from out of state, and most of the Mass ones I saw had random dealer badges from towns I've never heard of. (I'm not counting moving weekend, thats terrible no matter what, I'm talking about cars with college kids driving),

This week it has gotten better, and by now the traffic is back almost to where it was last year. Meanwhile the T stops have become more and more crowded, and the busses more and more full.

It took TWO WEEKS for people accustomed to driving everywhere all the time to start using public transit. That's it: faced with massive congestion it took two weeks to get out of their cars.

Now if we can figure out how to cause tons of traffic and make money doing it, the T can get out of its mess.
 
How about just growing the economy? Without the T, that means tons of traffic. With the T the city can still grow despite the congestion.
 

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