Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

[JSic]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Height is not what Boston is about.

Maybe its time that we changed that.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

And who is/are the tenant(s) for this resurrection?

No tenant = no tower. Everything else is mental masturbation.

 

[KentXie]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Firstly, I agree that quality and pedestrian experience matter more than height.

However, I also agree that a skyline does have something important to say about economic vitality ... or at least perceived growth prospects (obviously this is less so in places like China or the MidEast where it's also about government-financed pissing contests to build uneconomical, empty buildings).

That said, you left out Miami and even Vegas, which according to the link have larger skylines. Also on the continent are Toronto and Calgary (we beat Vancouver and Montreal), which are in an economy that is largely part of the US economy ... or at least *was* until Canada over the last 10 years exploited its resources wealth while the US dithered in that and Canada began seeking out more-reliable markets farther afield.

A city skyline should not be determine by the tallest structure in the city, but the overall size and make up of the skyline. With that said, Vancouver beats Boston hands down with its size and number. Calgary, I would say is comparable to Boston.

 

[DZH22]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

A city skyline should not be determine by the tallest structure in the city, but the overall size and make up of the skyline. With that said, Vancouver beats Boston hands down with its size and number. Calgary, I would say is comparable to Boston.

Vancouver absolutely does not beat Boston. Vancouver is a "smoke and mirrors" skyline made up almost exclusively of residential towers with higher floor counts. Boston beats Vancouver 16-3 in 500'+ towers (one in each city uses spires, so 15-2 by roof height). Here is the diagram if you combined the 2 cities.

http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?searchID=55356188

Really KentXie? REALLY??? Boston wins the first page 20-5, and has 11 of the 12 tallest. I understand Vancouver ultimately has more under 400', but I am much more impressed with a sea of 500'+ towers than a sea of 300'+ towers. Again, there is a reason Vancouver is ranked well below Boston on this chart: http://homepages.ipact.nl/~egram/skylines.html

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Berlin:

Frankfurt:

Which city is a million times better to be in and experience? Which city has culture oozing out of its ears? Berlin. I saw Berlin as being Boston just 10x larger and older.

Frankfurt is nothing but a useless financial metropolis, void of culture. Tall towers certainly don't make a city.

 

[Shepard]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

http://homepages.ipact.nl/~egram/skylines.html

What the...? How does Vegas possibly beat Boston??

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

^^ all posters

Height is not what Boston is about. I submit that this doesn't make it any lesser than say, Philadelphia or OKC.

Your yearnings for height will never be satisfied when you compare it to other cities.
GET OVER IT

Right on! Boston is about the amazing street level. Few cities anywhere can rival the pedestrian experience we have. Towers are nice, I won't oppose them, but I also don't pine for them. We have far too many examples in this country of cities with spectacular skylines that are completely boring on the human scale. Let's not aspire to replicate their spires.

 

[Lennon McCartney]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Some of this discussion seems useless. Tall buildings and culture/street life/pedestrian experience aren't mutually exclusive - see NYC, which does both IMO better than just about any other city. In terms of simple supply and demand, it makes sense for Boston to build as tall as it can whenever appropriate in order for the price supplied or office space/residential/retail to meet the price demanded of office space/residential/retail. While we absolutely need strong historic preservation laws to defend against what happened to the West End, we should be looking at neighborhoods like the Back Bay as models of mixing the old with the new. Obviously this project is located where building tall makes a lot of sense.

I also don't think we should use our current skyline as a basis for our future skyline, ex. setting the Hancock/Pru as the tallest towers in the Back Bay forever and making future towers rise up to their heights as they get closer to them and fall as they get further. When the Pru was built it completely altered the Boston skyline by adding 250 feet on top of the Old JH/CHT. I would welcome new towers doing the same thing.

Once the SPID and Mass Pike air rights parcels are finished, how much space is there left to build in the city? At that point we're going to have to accept taller buildings on slimmer parcels like we're seeing in NYC, unless we want future development to move further and further away from our urban core, which will increasingly become a playground for the wealthy.

 

[kmp1284]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The usual Berlin schtick.

Frankfurt is nothing but a useless financial metropolis, void of culture. Tall towers certainly don't make a city.

There's something to be said for having an economy though.

 

[itchy]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Which city is a million times better to be in and experience? Which city has culture oozing out of its ears? Berlin. I saw Berlin as being Boston just 10x larger and older.

Frankfurt is nothing but a useless financial metropolis, void of culture. Tall towers certainly don't make a city.

Berlin is certainly more fun, certainly has more "culture," etc. (This is due at least in part to the fact that both East and West used it as a Potemkin village to show the other that they were culturally/morally/economically superior during the Cold War, so the city has two of everything -- operas, concert halls, etc. -- even though its population and economy struggle to justify this.)

And you are right that "tall towers don't make a city." However, as a business, transportation and population hub, Frankfurt is many times more important than Berlin. While that isn't by any measure the case *because* Frankfurt has tall buildings, nonetheless, those towers allow many of Germany's biggest companies to house large amounts of workers in the city, and make it an attractive hub for businesses asking where to locate themselves.

Tall towers don't necessarily make a city vital (though in adding density -- at least of workers, if they're largely commercial buildings -- they do support added population), but they do help to keep its economy robust. Businesses seem to be moving to Berlin now that the return of the federal German government has added to its importance, but for a long time there have been questions about razing empty buildings, closing down cultural institutions, etc., because the city didn't have the population or economy to support them. Frankfurt's economy and population have long been humming, and having the commercial space to accommodate them is a necessary factor.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I think the buildings around Trans-national will suffocate the building from ever standing out. It might have the height and could possibly be a great building. I just don't think the location will be Iconic. That is my opinion.

I have been wrong many times.

I have worked on Federal Street. That street is not that appealing to me.

Riff--- er BlunderB -- This is the celebration of the War of 1812 after all

Iconic is greatly overused -- you can only have a few "iconic" buildings in any given place. Iconic means that you automatically associate the structure with the place and it is immediately recognizable by a lot of people -- this drastically limits the number of iconics.

For instance, despite an abundance of marvelous architecture -- Paris has about 3 structures that are visible from a distance and uniquely identifiable with Paris: Eifle Tower, Arc de Triomphe, Notre Dame and some other buildings which are iconic only in erudite sectors. The listed are ICONIC globally; the next dozen or so almost meet the criteria so we can call them iconic (locally).

In Boston, if you are at street level the BPL is certainly iconic -- yet as a pedestrian you can't see it from more than a block or two away (unless you have access to a narrow view corridor) and othside of the cognescenti -- not all that well known. On the other hand the JH is ICONIC as it is unique both at the pedestrian level and the view from Cambridge -- and is immediately known (many people appearing on TV from Boston have it over their shoulder).

From the harbor there are several highly visible towers -- yet there is only one ICONIC building -- the Customs House -- all the rest including much taller ones like IP, Fed Reserve, One Financial are not. At street level the corner facade of South Station is iconic -- but like the BPL only locally.

The other aspect of iconic is that it is subject to change -- for many years when it was the tallest or near tallest control tower -- Logan's control tower was ICONIC -- but now not so much

Can there be something iconic in the DTX -- certainly -- But ICONIC???

 

[JSic]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

if skyscrapers dont matter, lets deconstruct the Hancock and replace it with structures that engage the street better.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Berlin:...

Frankfurt:...

Which city is a million times better to be in and experience? Which city has culture oozing out of its ears? Berlin. I saw Berlin as being Boston just 10x larger and older.

Frankfurt is nothing but a useless financial metropolis, void of culture. Tall towers certainly don't make a city.

Data -- do your homework -- Berlin is younger than Boston and hardly 10X in size (counting the economic zone of influence). In many measures they are comparable despite Berlin having been the once and current capital of a major country.

Frankfurt, just as Berlin and Boston has an iconic food -- however only one was trumpeted by a US President -- so in the end I guess you are right -- its is Berlin

Ich bin ein Dunkin Donut

 

[Shepard]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Ich bin ein Dunkin Donut

I'll be honest... the occasional pearls like these keep me reading the Westie.

Your assertion that Berlin is younger than Boston, allow me to westie in some wikinowledge:

1244:Berlin is first mentioned in documents.
1251: First mention of city rights for Berlin.
1253: First known Berlin seal document with Brandenburg red eagle.
1261: First mention of city rights for Cölln.
1280: First surviving Berlin seal document depicting 2 upright bears with Brandenburg eagle in center
Documents are exhibited in the cathedral museum in the town of Brandenburg an der Havel.
Berlin's name is recorded in Latin language documents as "Berolina". The etymology of the name is uncertain, but may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- "swamp".[2]
1307: Twin cities Berlin and Cölln formed a trading union on political and security matters, and participated in the Hanse. Their urban development took place in parallel for 400 years.
Around 1400: Berlin and Cölln had 8,000 inhabitants.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I don't want to get into this, but Berlin goes back to 1237. Boston was founded in the 1600s.

My whole stance on towers is that I encourage smart growth (key projects such as TransNational Place) and not reckless building of towers for the sake of building towers. Boston actually one-ups Berlin in terms of diversity of the city structure. We have a strong financial/business center, rich culture, and are a major commercial/tourist draw.

Responding to the rhetoric question posed - No, we should not tear down the Hancock and replace it with something else. The Hancock was smart growth and Boston took the opportunity to construct an iconic landmark. I'd rather have the soaring well-designed Hancock over 3 bland 250-300 footers (even if they "stretched" the skyline).

 

[whighlander]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Berlin is certainly more fun, certainly has more "culture," etc. (This is due at least in part to the fact that both East and West used it as a Potemkin village to show the other that they were culturally/morally/economically superior during the Cold War, so the city has two of everything -- operas, concert halls, etc. -- even though its population and economy struggle to justify this.)

And you are right that "tall towers don't make a city." However, as a business, transportation and population hub, Frankfurt is many times more important than Berlin. While that isn't by any measure the case *because* Frankfurt has tall buildings, nonetheless, those towers allow many of Germany's biggest companies to house large amounts of workers in the city, and make it an attractive hub for businesses asking where to locate themselves.

Tall towers don't necessarily make a city vital (though in adding density -- at least of workers, if they're largely commercial buildings -- they do support added population), but they do help to keep its economy robust. Businesses seem to be moving to Berlin now that the return of the federal German government has added to its importance, but for a long time there have been questions about razing empty buildings, closing down cultural institutions, etc., because the city didn't have the population or economy to support them. Frankfurt's economy and population have long been humming, and having the commercial space to accommodate them is a necessary factor.

Itch -- by your own analysis -- Frankfurt was the true "Potemkin Village"

Since Berlin was surrounded by the Warsaw Pact -- it could not be counted on.

As a result -- Bonn became the political capital, but it was small and access was limited. Munich was too far south and away from the rest of the Post WWII Westeern Euro core.

As a result -- it had to be Frankfurt:
a) major US Air Base (Rhein-Main Air Base) -- aka the 'Gateway to Europe"
b) US Army's 97th General Hospital -- now US Consulate General
c) HQ of first US Army Administration -- SHAEF Hqs, mid-1945
d) as it was alredy big in banking it aturally became the center of finance beginning with the Marshall Plan

 

[whighlander]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I don't want to get into this, but Berlin goes back to 1237. Boston was founded in the 1600s.

My whole stance on towers is that I encourage smart growth (key projects such as TransNational Place) and not reckless building of towers for the sake of building towers. Boston actually one-ups Berlin in this sense. We have a strong financial/business center, rich culture, and are a major commercial/tourist draw.

Responding to the rhetoric question posed - No, we should not tear down the Hancock and replace it with something else. The Hancock was smart growth and Boston took the opportunity to construct an iconic landmark. I'd rather have the soaring well-designed Hancock over 3 bland 250-300 footers (even if they "stretched" the skyline).

Data there was a village on the river where Berlin is now located -- but nothing really was built until the mid 19th Century

Meanwhile, by the late 1600's Boston was one of the largest and richest English speaking ports in the world surpassing in importance all non-English cities (and quite a few quintesential English cities) until the late 18th Century

 

[underground]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Since Berlin was surrounded by the Warsaw Pact -- it could not be counted on.

Sounds like someone's never walked down the Kudamm.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Itch -- by your own analysis -- Frankfurt was the true "Potemkin Village"

Since Berlin was surrounded by the Warsaw Pact -- it could not be counted on.

As a result -- Bonn became the political capital, but it was small and access was limited. Munich was too far south and away from the rest of the Post WWII Westeern Euro core.

As a result -- it had to be Frankfurt:
a) major US Air Base (Rhein-Main Air Base) -- aka the 'Gateway to Europe"
b) US Army's 97th General Hospital -- now US Consulate Generalc) HQ of first US Army Administration -- SHAEF Hqs, mid-1945
d) as it was alredy big in banking it aturally became the center of finance beginning with the Marshall Plan

My brother was born there....

 

[Shepard]

Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

While we're on the subject, here's Frankfurt's answer to our Greenway: https://maps.google.com/?ll=50.1121...2MI9tIpri2pfUJSGOop_Rg&cbp=12,110.21,,0,-1.64

Only major difference is a light rail line down the median.