Winthrop Square Garage Demolition | Downtown

Demolishing the garage is much more important than just the fact of the decrepit garage being removed from downtown. Its a new symbol. Bostons new downtown spire is supposed to go at this site and if they let this sit like downtown crossing it will be a different type of symbol right in the heart of downtown...again. If this sits idle not long after DTX was just finally fixed it will become a symbol of failure and for that reason I don't see this staying this way for long. They're not going to repeat what happened in DTX where a gaping hole sits right in the heart of Boston for a long time. They're very aware of the effect that hole in DTX had on the city and how much of an embarrassment it was. Thats not going to be repeated, especially not now when we are supposed to be booming and wooing all of these big name companies to the city. Once the garage is gone they're going to want to get this new tower up as quick as they reasonably can, so this being demolished now is a huge step. Once its gone the clock starts ticking.
 
stick n move said:
Demolishing the garage is much more important than just the fact of the decrepit garage being removed from downtown. Its a new symbol. Bostons new downtown spire is supposed to go at this site and if they let this sit like downtown crossing it will be a different type of symbol right in the heart of downtown...again. If this sits idle not long after DTX was just finally fixed it will become a symbol of failure and for that reason I don't see this staying this way for long. They're not going to repeat what happened in DTX where a gaping hole sits right in the heart of Boston for a long time. They're very aware of the effect that hole in DTX had on the city and how much of an embarrassment it was. Thats not going to be repeated, especially not now when we are supposed to be booming and wooing all of these big name companies to the city. Once the garage is gone they're going to want to get this new tower up as quick as they reasonably can, so this being demolished now is a huge step. Once its gone the clock starts ticking.
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Amen to that. This project is NIMBY's Waterloo. They've thrown every nonsensical argument against it and in the past would have buried it long ago. All that's left now is for Galvin to try to designate the garage a historical monument. :D
 
The demo is undoubtedly also meant to send a message that the nimby loons aren't going to stop this project..... the City is moving forward with its business.
 
Menino would have had this u/c 18 months ago at 735' telling Massport to "work through it."
 
odurandina said:
The demo is undoubtedly also meant to send a message that the nimby loons aren't going to stop this project..... the City is moving forward with its business.
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Besides the fact that, you know, its in the way n stuff.
 
They should still nickname it Tommy's Tower, since he (Menino) was the one who had first thought of it.
 
Rover said:
Amen to that. This project is NIMBY's Waterloo. They've thrown every nonsensical argument against it and in the past would have buried it long ago. All that's left now is for Galvin to try to designate the garage a historical monument. :D
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I hear that Galvin is going to have some opposition in the election next year. He might actually need some help from the trades...
 
Who’s paying for this ? Millennium or the city ?
 
odurandina said:
Menino would have had this u/c 18 months ago at 735' telling Massport to "work through it."
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a little confused about this statement. menino's plans for a 1,000 footer were nixed by the FAA and he didn't push back (much) and that was that. what makes you think he'd have told the FAA/Massport to screw themselves at 735'? Over FAA height restrictions is over FAA height restrictions.
 
Rover said:
Amen to that. This project is NIMBY's Waterloo. They've thrown every nonsensical argument against it and in the past would have buried it long ago. All that's left now is for Galvin to try to designate the garage a historical monument. :D
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The thing is the "Nimbys" got it knocked down to 702' from 775'. Thats huge and this tower isn't really going to be as iconic or really stand out as much as it would have at all. Its gonna be like 15' taller than Millennium Tower. This means were really still waiting for the Icon downtown. Although 700' is still pretty good and taller than anything else around it Im not sure if this will even appear higher than 1IP when looking across the Harbor anymore. It didn't stick up that much before, but it was enough to break the plateau. Now it seems that it will be hidden like MT is when looking across the harbor which means that view isn't really going to change which adds to the theme of us building here but the skyline not really changing much. Looking across the harbor the government center garage and South Station tower will have a much bigger impact now where before this tower created a new peak on downtown.

Im not mad though just stating reality. I like the tower design and the facade is much more detailed and dynamic than any other high rise in the city we have. The roof is flat but the facade itself still has the effect of curtains over windows that open more at the bottom. Also even though the roof is flat it still has a crown because of the notches taken out at the top and the 8 vertical lines that are indented in to the facade. I just realized that the roofline on this is actually very similar to 1 Dalton. They both have the notches taken out and the concave vertical lines leading to these notches.
 
stick n move said:
The thing is the "Nimbys" got it knocked down to 702' from 775'.
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The FAA was never going to accept a 775' height. They were clear on that from the outset. The decision by MP to propose at that height was either deluded or (more likely) a way to appease the NIMBYs by dropping height they never expected to be allowed to build.
 
stick n move said:
The thing is the "Nimbys" got it knocked down to 702' from 775'. Thats huge and this tower isn't really going to be as iconic or really stand out as much as it would have at all. Its gonna be like 15' taller than Millennium Tower. This means were really still waiting for the Icon downtown. Although 700' is still pretty good and taller than anything else around it Im not sure if this will even appear higher than 1IP when looking across the Harbor anymore. It didn't stick up that much before, but it was enough to break the plateau. Now it seems that it will be hidden like MT is when looking across the harbor which means that view isn't really going to change which adds to the theme of us building here but the skyline not really changing much. Looking across the harbor the government center garage and South Station tower will have a much bigger impact now where before this tower created a new peak on downtown.

Im not mad though just stating reality. I like the tower design and the facade is much more detailed and dynamic than any other high rise in the city we have. The roof is flat but the facade itself still has the effect of curtains over windows that open more at the bottom. Also even though the roof is flat it still has a crown because of the notches taken out at the top and the 8 vertical lines that are indented in to the facade. I just realized that the roofline on this is actually very similar to 1 Dalton. They both have the notches taken out and the concave vertical lines leading to these notches.
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I thought it was the FAA that knocked it down, I don't see how NIMBY groups had anything to do with it (unless I am missing something, which I a probably am). Also - I don't think this is an apt comparison to the DTX hole - where this hole could be caused by NIMBY groups, the DTX one was pretty much on the developer trying to hold the city hostage for more incentives to build (which apparently was modus operandi).
 
bakgwailo said:
Also - I don't think this is an apt comparison to the DTX hole - where this hole could be caused by NIMBY groups, the DTX one was pretty much on the developer trying to hold the city hostage for more incentives to build (which apparently was modus operandi).
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To take it a step further....
-The DTX hole was in the heart of one of the busiest areas in the city, whereas this garage is only in a busy area during business hours. (I would know, I park near there all the time)
-The DTX hole got rid of existing retail and replaced them with nothing. This hole would sit where an empty, useless parking garage was. So basically no change in use.
-The DTX hole had a historical structure that was originally supposed to be preserved, with the walls standing as a reminder of the inaction. This garage has no such historical value.

In short, the DTX hole was a true net negative for the area, and held DTX hostage for years. This hole, if it comes to that, would be more of a lateral move. This new tower would help attract people who would otherwise have no reason to be in the area. It's basically replacing a nothing/negative area with a positive, whereas the Filenes hole was slated to replace a positive (busy Filenes, Filenes Basement, and food windows) with something even more positive. That's why the DTX hole was substantially worse than this could ever be. Of course, if this is still sitting undeveloped 5+ years from now, we can revisit this assumption!
 
Agree with earlier comments. NIMBY's had nothing to do with height reduction. That's all FAA and this tower will mostly likely come up near to FAA limits. I really liked how the developer played this. Don't give up one inch until you absolutely have to (FAA) instead of negotiating against yourself. That's why this project is so important. NIMBY's got nothing. No meaningless height reduction. No blocking the project because of a December morning shadow. Nothing. Build it as in and there's no reason to negotiate with these idiots (and I'm talking about professional NIMBY's like Squirrely Shirley).

Regarding DTX, I thought the longstanding hole in the ground is what got the thing built quickly without the usual nonsensical shadow/wind/height complaints once a new owner took over. Also, isn't the current building higher than what was originally proposed?
 
Rover said:
That's why this project is so important. NIMBY's got nothing. No meaningless height reduction. No blocking the project because of a December morning shadow. Nothing.
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This is a ridiculous assessment. NIMBY's get to wreck future projects due to using up the shadow bank for the "Home Rule" decision. They can even wreck projects casting shadows on parks other than the common, such as Copley. Any future tall proposals will have to migrate towards the North Station area, because this tower sinks a lot of prospects in downtown and the Back Bay.
 
DZH22 said:
This is a ridiculous assessment. NIMBY's get to wreck future projects due to using up the shadow bank for the "Home Rule" decision. They can even wreck projects casting shadows on parks other than the common, such as Copley. Any future tall proposals will have to migrate towards the North Station area, because this tower sinks a lot of prospects in downtown and the Back Bay.
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What prospects does this sink downtown? All I can think of is One Bromfield which wasn't getting done this cycle anyway. When its time does come, the developer can pony up 150M as well. If the price is right, the law will change.

Otherwise, the other two big proposals, Chiofaro and SST, are unaffected by the law. What other parcels are we talking about?

Future talls are already migrating towards North Station because that and near the Christian Science Center are the highest allowed heights in the city per the FAA. For Copley I think the now defunct Copley Tower is grandfathered in but otherwise what projects are now out of luck? If the Christian Scientists decide to bust out another 700-800 footer on their property, this won't stop them.
 
Rover said:
What prospects does this sink downtown? All I can think of is One Bromfield which wasn't getting done this cycle anyway. When its time does come, the developer can pony up 150M as well. If the price is right, the law will change.

Otherwise, the other two big proposals, Chiofaro and SST, are unaffected by the law. What other parcels are we talking about?

Future talls are already migrating towards North Station because that and near the Christian Science Center are the highest allowed heights in the city per the FAA. For Copley I think the now defunct Copley Tower is grandfathered in but otherwise what projects are now out of luck? If the Christian Scientists decide to bust out another 700-800 footer on their property, this won't stop them.
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Also the Copley Place Tower I think is except (if it ever happens) as it was already approved before any law changes (honestly not even sure if it would cast a shadow at all anyways). And yeah - I guess we can thank Vornado for keeping the hole so long in DTX as it certainly provided the will to stream line the Millennium Tower ASAP.
 
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