General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Good thinking, KMP. Your much safer in a car, because everyone knows there's never been a single car crash ever.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

^^ I mean, I'll be honest, when I first saw this, my first thought was that folks would feel that there weren't sufficient safeguards in place, and that was what caused the accident. (And that some nutcases would use this as an anti-transit argument.) Then I pointed out to myself that accidents occur everywhere, and we can't have a 0% accident rate, it's just not possible. Even the best system will occasionally screw up.

That said, I think there is a bit of a middle ground. In a car, you're responsible for your own life, the lives of your passengers and the lives of those around your vehicle. Realistically, this is probably going to add up to no more than 40 people at one time. Maybe 60. The exception to this is when you're on a highway, and your vehicle risks being the pebble that starts an avalanche (ie. a pile-up). Still, generally an auto driver is responsible for the safety of roughly 50 lives, and the safety precautions drivers take reflect that.

On mass-transit, however, the numbers are much higher. A typical single Green Line car has 50 seats. During rush hour, all of those seats are filled, plus something like another 40 people standing at least. (Obviously, these numbers are very rough estimates.) That means that a driver of a two-car Green Line train could be responsible for the safety of something close to 200 lives. That number spikes when another train comes by, the train goes over a crossing, enters or leaves a station... Obviously there are a lot of safeguards built into each of these scenarios (the Yellow Line, traffic light, signals, etc), so the pressure isn't exponentially greater on the driver him/herself.

But when accidents like this happen, it does highlight the greater stakes involved in transit accidents.

It sounds like this accident would've been no more than a fender-bender were the same thing to have happened with automobiles than with light rail vehicles. Auto-fender-benders rarely injure folks at all, but the equivalent accident occurring on rail caused various minor injuries (with apparently one unfortunate exception, the poor guy), many of which nonetheless really messed up many folks' days.

Obviously I'm not arguing that we should all flee to our cars, but I think it's worth remembering that getting a bit freaked out about this episode is perfectly healthy and reasonable. Life entails certain risks, and so long as you're aware of the risks, and the low probability of most of them occurring, you're fine.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The MBTA's had 2 train crashes in, what, 5 years? 2 crashes is basically one evening commute on 128.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The MBTA's had 2 train crashes in, what, 5 years? 2 crashes is basically one evening commute on 128.

Right, which is why using this incident as a justification to not use the T doesn't make much sense.

On the other hand, how many people were injured in those two 128 crashes? And then how many people were injured in in the T crashes?

All I'm saying is that, regardless of their relative frequency, a single T crash/fender-bender/whatever should freak people out more than a single automobile incident, because more injuries are being focalized in the one incident.

But even if that is the case, we still shouldn't let a momentary freak-out cause us to ask irrationally.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Not to minimize the fact that there were injuries (although they all appear to be minor), but I note from the article I read today that that the accident involved a two car E line train striking another two car E line train. I'm no expert but I can't figure out why the MBTA allows the specific branches of the Green line to bunch up like this.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Maybe this should form a good argument for Patrick and Davey on why we need to upgrade our transit infrastructure? Maybe to highlight the urgency to the public we can call it the 'transit cliff'?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

In a car, you're responsible for your own life, the lives of your passengers and the lives of those around your vehicle.

You're actually not fully responsible. You're only half responsible for your life. The other half of the "responsibility" lies in all the other drivers on the road. You could be the most cautious driver ever and all it takes is one dickhead cutting you off or swerving into you without looking to cause a major disaster.

Both forms of transport, car and subway, have their own sense of risk beyond the passengers' control.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Honestly, what is the key bus route you talking about? I want to know so I can feel exasperation at exactly the poll that takes two years to remove.

There are 15 key bus rotues (on the maps).

Feds gave MBTA money to improve the routes, faster service, more riders etc.

Timeline was ASAP.

Studies were done, removing stops, consolidating stops, adding shelters, adding benches, possible reroutes, removing parking, adding parking, bus bulbouts, transit priority, bus lanes etc etc etc.

That was done in 2011.

The studies generally concluded that no route changes would be made (ie, the 66 would still make the idiotic detour in allston) and the only changes would be removing some stops and adding some shelters.

So all they have to do is go out, and move the poles that say "bus stop" and hand out flyers.

Apparently, that process, which two of us could do over the course of a week, takes a year.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

That's one way to get CBTC signaling installed on the Green Line in our lifetimes: strike three from the NTSB and "I don't give a flying @#$% how you plan to pay for it...you aren't allowed to operate at < 5 minute headways until you do."
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

That's one way to get CBTC signaling installed on the Green Line in our lifetimes: strike three from the NTSB and "I don't give a flying @#$% how you plan to pay for it...you aren't allowed to operate at < 5 minute headways until you do."

But buses? Operate at 5 second intervals if you please!

bus_traffic.jpg



No signalling, no automatic stop, 100% human operated, and a ok.

What could go wrong?

121127HempsteadNYBusFatal4W043244--525x300.jpg
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

So when can we expect the new blissfully 'qualified' MBTA GM to decide the Green Line is unsafe and needs to be permanently bustituted?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Considering how rare it is to not be crawling through the Central Subway at a snail's pace, I'd say it's probably an operational toss up at this point. ;)

On mass-transit, however, the numbers are much higher. A typical single Green Line car has 50 seats. During rush hour, all of those seats are filled, plus something like another 40 people standing at least. (Obviously, these numbers are very rough estimates.) That means that a driver of a two-car Green Line train could be responsible for the safety of something close to 200 lives.

Really just a minor detail, but a two-car trainset may in theory hold upwards of 400+ people. The Type 8s are capable of cramming in up to ~200 people and the Type 7s around ~270.
 
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The Type 8s are capable of cramming in up to ~200 people and the Type 7s around ~270.

Let's all stop once again at the altar of ADA and say a prayer to progress.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Millenium Partners definitely wanted to open up Chinatown pretty bad. The fucking MBTA admoronstration didn't want it. So ridiculous.

Developer: "Hey, we'll open this place up for you and make it nice... for free!"

MBTA: "Fuck dat! We ain't need yo pity money!"

I think its more:

Developer: "Hey, we'll open this place up for you and make it...."

MBTA: "LA LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA!"


They did the same thing to the BAC when they were trying to talk to them about reopening the Boylston entrance to Hynes.

Or when they spent all that money cleaning, installing security cameras and charliegates at the Berkeley entrance to Arlington.

Or when they teased everyone for years about opening up the other Blue Line entrance at Government Center... which they are still building but just not letting people use.

Where else is this happening?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Then I pointed out to myself that accidents occur everywhere, and we can't have a 0% accident rate, it's just not possible. Even the best system will occasionally screw up.

Exactly. It's important that the T has a safety culture, and that they do their best to keep accidents from happening. But at the same time, shit happens. And the thing is, these accidents are so rare (nevermind fatalities, which are even rarer) that they're kind of a non-issue. PTC sounds well and good, but dropping a billion dollars to save one life per year, if that? There needs to be some rigorous cost-benefit analysis, because that $1 billion could probably save a lot more lives doing any number of things. Hell, even South Coast Fail would probably save more lives than that by getting drivers off the road.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Here's a thought: let's spend a fraction of the $90M they're proposing for the GC overhaul and use the rest towards initiating Green Line CBTC. Surely the feds would find that an equally worthy - yet infinitely more urgent - need with a positive impact system-wide.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Exactly. It's important that the T has a safety culture, and that they do their best to keep accidents from happening. But at the same time, shit happens. And the thing is, these accidents are so rare (nevermind fatalities, which are even rarer) that they're kind of a non-issue. PTC sounds well and good, but dropping a billion dollars to save one life per year, if that? There needs to be some rigorous cost-benefit analysis, because that $1 billion could probably save a lot more lives doing any number of things. Hell, even South Coast Fail would probably save more lives than that by getting drivers off the road.

Where do I even begin with this horseshit list of false equivalences.


Tally up the liability from the fatal 2008 wreck and the Gov't Center wreck and the cost is already in tens of millions, plus 4 wrecked Green Line cars valued at >$1M each which have to meet the scrapper's torch and will have to be replaced whole as part of the Type 9 order. You don't have to resort to false equivalencies about the price of a human life vs. price of a signal system. It's already taken its chunk of flesh out of the T's coffers in real money. Real money so far...neither of those two cases are closed, neither have had all costs tallied. And if we have more wrecked cars every couple years from these types of rear-enders, the price of the Type 9 order goes up as they have to tack on contingency units to cover wreck victims. The GL isn't swimming in fleet surplus. Those are fucking expensive bumper cars. Already are. No cost hypotheticals about it. A system that averages a high-liability case and "car loss event" on one line at a rate of about once every couple years better damn well figure out how to manage its traffic under load a little more fail-safe than that. This shit gets expensive.


Second...that was not a slow-speed crash. All auto-stop systems (Red/Orange ATO, commuter rail cab signals, Amtrak PTC) have a manual override in case of signal loss or some other contingency. Capped at 5 MPH max. And only after making a dead stop. 5 MPH is your maximum potential energy for a collision with stop protection. 5 MPH will not push a parked two-car GL consist a full 20 feet forward when the brakes on both cars are locked in tandem for a station stop. This was going faster than that. How much so, I don't know...but easily 10-20 MPH physics. The GC wreck was going way faster than that. The D wreck was going way faster still. None of these three incidents happen with that severity under PTC. They don't. They don't even happen with Red/Orange's hardly state-of-the-art ATO system. OK...right there, we have preventability metrics you can crunch vs. the liability bleed and equipment loss.


Third...where are you coming up with this $1B figure? The initial estimates (see p.20: http://www.bostonmpo.org/bostonmpo/pmt-old/PMT-2.pdf) for CBTC on the Green Line were established at $327M. Be ultra cynical and say they've doubled. There's still not enough lard you can physically pack onto a signal retrofit of the D, Central Subway, Huntington subway, and GLX to arrive at $1B. Track miles set the construction costs for this. That's why the Red Line's 26 miles price out the most expensive of the 4 rapid transit lines for CBTC. That's what's driving NYC Subway's cost estimates. But new GL signals are not a billion-dollar project.


Fourth...this has nothing to do with South Coast FAIL. We'd save way more than 1 life per year extending the subway's operating hours two hours to 2:30am, two nights a week and getting those people off the road at closing time than we would spending one paltry capital dollar on any new service or any new piece of infrastructure anywhere. Or, hell, probably 1 life per year per every half-hour extra per night. So what's your fucking point?



I understand that safety vs. cost valuation is a tough nut to crack and there's a healthy debate on the limits we can spend for "not one life". So state your case without cloaking it in a turd sandwich of logical fallacies, please.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Here's a thought: let's spend a fraction of the $90M they're proposing for the GC overhaul and use the rest towards initiating Green Line CBTC. Surely the feds would find that an equally worthy - yet infinitely more urgent - need with a positive impact system-wide.

Actually, no.

Doesnt the ADA law say that all key stations have to be fully handicap accessible........by 1993? With an extension to 1997?

It's 2012. MBTA is operating on a slight delay. Thats unacceptable.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

I think you're on the right track, in that the funding is probably earmarked to ADA improvements (and as much as, up to and including the kitchen sink) that the T can get bundled into the package under the auspices of ADA.
 

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