Canopy by Hilton (née Haymarket Hotel) | Blackstone St | Parcel 9 | Greenway

Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

I hadn't really understood this until I just looked at a map, but holy crap what an area this is going to be. From Faneuil Hall and Quincy Market you'll have this market, the Public Market across the street, the Blackstone Block, and ultimately the shopping arcade of One Congress. That entire area bounded by State, Market, Congress and the Greenway may not have a precedent in the US as a market district if it's built out completely.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

I'm gonna get so fat.

As much as I stick up for Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall (it's a mall, not a market, but at least it's a functional mall), I definitely agree with equilibria about the amazing positive impact these projects are all going to have, and about how transformative it'll be. We'll have our mini Boroughs Market and mini Covent Garden right next to each other in the center of downtown. That's pretty amazing.
 
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Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

Beautiful. A small development that along with the BPM will make a huge impact.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

I thought that there was already an approval for this? Why are they waiting until late next year to start? That parcel has been screaming for a development for way too long now.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

type001 said:
I thought that there was already an approval for this? Why are they waiting until late next year to start?
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Same could be said for Copley Tower, CSC, TD Garden Towers, and pretty much anything and everything else ever built in this city. All we do is wait, and wait, and wait.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

Normandy is in the process of finding a partner for the hotel I believe
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

Whoops, dropped the article I posted was in the wrong thread...guess I was on auto-pilot
 
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Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

The Massachusetts Historical Commission is throwing a fit about the height in relation to the Blackstone Block & Faneuil Hall: http://northendwaterfront.com/2015/...el-9-design-as-too-high-for-blackstone-block/

Interestingly the Waterfront Development Council actually approved the project 7-1: http://northendwaterfront.com/2014/11/haymarket-hotel-updates-building-plan-at-parcel-9-video/

Also in that article are new renders:
haymarket-hotel-parcel-9-greenway-1.jpg


haymarket-hotel-parcel-9-greenway-back1.jpg
 
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Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

As I read the link, the MHC has to actually approve the development. They will have to be playacted and can't just be ignored?
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

Where was the Historical Commission when the state was blowing up neighborhoods in the 50s? This whole controversy is silly.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

jpdivola said:
As I read the link, the MHC has to actually approve the development. They will have to be playacted and can't just be ignored?
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As I read the letter from the State Historic Preservation Officer, under a Federal Section 106 process that was established in the course of the Big Dig, the MHC was given authority to review and approve/disapprove any design of this building. I may be reading too much into what is a short letter, but their rejection seems pretty absolute, in that they found no design elements that they favored.

So Normandy is stuck at square one. I am surprised that Normandy didn't have informal conversations with the MHC before submitting this design. But perhaps, Normandy has no experience with this approval process.

This parcel is state land, which seems to be why MHC has this authority under Section 106.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

BussesAin'tTrains said:
Where was the Historical Commission when the state was blowing up neighborhoods in the 50s? This whole controversy is silly.
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Busses -- the Historical Commission probably either didn't exist or if it did its purview was limited

Remember no one stepped-up to save the Province House, John Hancock's house, the Old Feather Store and we almost lost the Old State House

So there are two answers to your presumably rhetorical question:
1) nobody in the 1950's thought that the "neighborhoods" were important
2) you can't preserve everything -- just like Fredrick the Great said "He who defends everything defends nothing" -- you have to pick your priorities -- the argument is always in the details -- whose priorities?

If I had to sacrifice a "neighborhood" of oldish, undistinguished houses to save Faneuil Hall and Quincy Market -- I left the neighborhood go everytime
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

whighlander said:
If I had to sacrifice a "neighborhood" of oldish, undistinguished houses to save Faneuil Hall and Quincy Market -- I left the neighborhood go everytime
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What? The West End was not torn down to defend Faneuil Hall or Quincy Market.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

stellarfun said:
As I read the letter from the State Historic Preservation Officer, under a Federal Section 106 process that was established in the course of the Big Dig, the MHC was given authority to review and approve/disapprove any design of this building. I may be reading too much into what is a short letter, but their rejection seems pretty absolute, in that they found no design elements that they favored.

So Normandy is stuck at square one. I am surprised that Normandy didn't have informal conversations with the MHC before submitting this design. But perhaps, Normandy has no experience with this approval process.

This parcel is state land, which seems to be why MHC has this authority under Section 106.
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My guess is that the project is now deader than the proverbial doornail as both the winner and the runner-up proposals wanted to be far taller than the 55 feet which the MHC seems to think is necessary to preserve the Blackstone Block -- this is of course despite the fact that the existing adjacent hotel housing the ancient Scott's Alley is significantly taller than the 55 feet zoning limit

As a result of the MHC objection it now may be a very long time before anything gets built on the site
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

joebos said:
What? The West End was not torn down to defend Faneuil Hall or Quincy Market.
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Joebos -- it pays to read the entire post

I'd did not make that association -- you inferred it -- I was simply making the point that today's sentiments and concerns may not have governed the government in the 1050's and 1960's

just as when the all-powerful State tore down John Hancock's House for the expansion of the Statehouse -- the cornerstone of which was laid by John Hancock -- there was even less concern for the historic
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

Judging by the renders, I am OK with the development as-is. The taller section is on the left side of the parcel (looking from the Greenway), so it will hide the hotel from the Greenway, but the rest of the Blackstone Block will be visible over the 2-story section of the development.

That said, is the problem scale, or context? I think the scale of the development is fine, but I can understand if the commission would prefer a classical building over a modern one in this site. The building looks to be ~10 stories, why not have a simple 10 story classical brick building instead of this modern one?
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

whighlander said:
My guess is that the project is now deader than the proverbial doornail as both the winner and the runner-up proposals wanted to be far taller than the 55 feet which the MHC seems to think is necessary to preserve the Blackstone Block -- this is of course despite the fact that the existing adjacent hotel housing the ancient Scott's Alley is significantly taller than the 55 feet zoning limit

As a result of the MHC objection it now may be a very long time before anything gets built on the site
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No.

Normandy can still come forward with a design that will be accepted, and it need not be a replica of a Bulfinch building on the Greenway. But it has to take contextual cues from the Blackstone black, and this building does not. It might as well be on Pier Four, or outer Boylston St.

The Blackstone block is a National Historic District, and the Union Oyster House is a National Historic Landmark. No other part of the Greenway is proximate to such designated sites.

What seems to be egregious on Normandy's part was they increased the height (from the height they proposed when they were chosen) by about 20 feet for the taller building, and doubled the height of the market building, explaining the electricals were being moved to a second floor because of rising sea levels. I suspect the additional floor for the market will be acceptable. It would also appear, without my having read the Memorandum of Agreement that was developed under the Section 106 process, that Normandy either didn't read or didn't understand the stipulations in the Section 106 MOA If so, that would be a culpable error on their part, bordering on the stupid.

Here is a link to an older MOA covering transfer of land at the Navy Yard from the Federal government to the BRA. Read the stipulations.

http://www.achp.gov/GSAagreements/G...nNavyYard_newDevelopmentArea_MOA_june1978.pdf

Here is a link to a recent Memorandum of Agreement under Section 106 for Springfield MA, related to an armory drill shed.
http://www.achp.gov/docs/ma.fema.demo of the drill shed.moa.jan15.pdf

I can't find a copy of the Section 106 MOA for the Big Dig but I am quite certain it is longer than this one for an armory. The Advisory Council of Historic Preservation is a Federal agency, and typically a signatory party in a MOA. If the MHC gave approval to a design that was inconsistent with the stipulations in a MOA, ACHP could intervene.
 
Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

This is a beautiful project and a great amenity—it does no "harm" to the Blackstone Block. The alleged offensiveness of this proposal is only opinion, not hard fact. The pendulum has swung from the demolition extreme of 60 years ago to the change nothing extreme of today—it needs to be reset to a more reasonable middle ground. The needs of today should not be trumped by an obsessive deference to yesterday.
 
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Re: Parcel 9 - The Greenway

Brad Plaid said:
This is a beautiful project and a great amenity—it does no "harm" to the Blackstone Block. The alleged offensiveness of this proposal is only opinion, not hard fact. The pendulum has swung from the demolition extreme of 60 years ago to the change nothing extreme of today—it needs to be reset to a more reasonable middle ground. The needs of today should not be trumped by an obsessive deference to yesterday.
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Your opinion matters not even a whit, and neither does mine. What matters is the language in the stipulations of the Section 106 Memorandum of Agreement for the Big Dig.

As for design, under that same MOA, the MHC likely reviewed and subsequently approved the designs for the buildings built on the Greenway parcels near Causeway St., so modern design is not anathema.

The latest design, in my opinion, is a PoS for this site at this location. Always be wary of appearances, as in this case, when the only renderings publicly revealed pretend that the Blackstone block does not exist. (Chiofaro has been doing the same for his proposed towers for years. There is not one rendering of the Harbor Garage towers showing the perspective from Faneuil Hall or City Hall.)
 
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