Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

Lrfox said:
  • I still hate that the Weaver's Cove site is where the layover yard ended up. I get that Fall River isn't exactly a development hot spot, but they're not exactly making a whole lot of new waterfront (especially navigable, coastal waterfront) space either. I would much rather have seen development there that actually taps into the waterfront (mixed use with a waterfront park, residential, or even a better industrial use). But it's not as if the MBTA was competing with developers chomping at the bit for that real estate, and I doubt there were many (if any) developers who would/could have afforded the environmental cleanup. So I guess it is what it is. Maybe someday.
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The city's just glad it wasn't that controversial LNG terminal that was proposed for Weaver's a decade ago. Anything is gravy to them compared to that.
  • I think the Middleborough station relocation is, overall, a good thing. It's more integrated with the higher density Middleboro Center area (and walkable to the main commercial drag, Center St.). It's also better connected to I-495. I don't like that they are abandoning a site which saw some transit oriented development (albeit, very car-centric), and I don't know how it'll work with Cape Flyer/future Wareham/Cape Cod service. But overall, I think the station is in the best location for the town of Middleborough.
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The new Middleboro platform can't be used at all by Cape trains. It resides on the wye to the Middleborough Secondary, not the Cape Main. They'd have to build another platform 350 ft. away across the parking lot to make any use of it for Cape services. Cape Flyer trains are expected to keep using Middleboro/Lakeville station, which should be nice and confusing for everyone.
 
Java King said:
I think it's an apartment building and not a condo, but I wonder what people renting there think about the station relocation? I would assume they rented across the street from the Middleboro/Lakeville train station for the access to Boston. I would be upset if I had rented for that reason.
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My understanding is that there weren’t/aren’t a ton of commuters in those buildings. They’re newer construction rentals in a decent school district (Freetown-Lakeville) and a “safe” town which isn’t easy to find in that corner of the state. I grew up in the area and knew a few people who moved in for that reason (the alternative was most likely a 3 decker in New Bedford). None were Boston commuters. There’s little appeal beyond the T access and the zip code and I imagine someone looking to access Boston and reduce car use can do better somewhere closer to town.

But yeah. If I rented there for the T access, I’d be annoyed by the longer, less than pleasant walk to the new station.

F-Line to Dudley said:
The city's just glad it wasn't that controversial LNG terminal that was proposed for Weaver's a decade ago. Anything is gravy to them compared to that.

The new Middleboro platform can't be used at all by Cape trains. It resides on the wye to the Middleborough Secondary, not the Cape Main. They'd have to build another platform 350 ft. away across the parking lot to make any use of it for Cape services. Cape Flyer trains are expected to keep using Middleboro/Lakeville station, which should be nice and confusing for everyone.
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Yeah, they treated LNG as if it was certain to bring about the end of life as we know it in the region. But there are plenty of officials and residents alike who aren’t thrilled with the layover yard either. This is Fall River, after all. They feel the site should be Fall River’s version of National Harbor (but with an aquarium to rival NEAQ as well). Realistically. something better than a rail yard would have been nice.

I knew it would need another platform but didn’t realize they’d continue to use the old station for the Cape Flyer. On one hand, I can imagine Cape Flyer boarding/disembarking is pretty light at Middleborough/Lakeville so it’s hardly worth the cost of a new platform. But the current plan seems kind of silly.
 
Riverside said:
DATTCO is ending its New Bedford commuter bus service.

thepublicsradio.org

New Bedford’s last mass transit link to Boston closes in April - TPR: The Public's Radio

DATTCO announced it will stop running buses to Massachusetts’ South Coast on April 16, leaving carless commuters without a direct ride to Boston until the MBTA’s long-awaited South Coast Rail opens next winter.
thepublicsradio.org thepublicsradio.org
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If bus service is that unprofitable... even at $31/RT... yikes. SCR is going to be such a money pit.
 
Peter Pan still runs busses from Boston to New Bedford and vice-versa.
 
@F-Line to Dudley the curved Middleboro platform piqued my interest in the construction photos. I thought you mentioned it was not feasible for a curved platform near the Wynn Casino in Everett? I'm sure it's not desirable, but it seems like the MBTA opted for this curved platform at this location in Middleboro. Do you know why it's acceptable here in Middleboro and not in Everett?

1679450088332.png
 
jklo said:
If bus service is that unprofitable... even at $31/RT... yikes. SCR is going to be such a money pit.
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I will note that DAATCO was more like $17-20/RT for a regular rider (10-trip tickets or monthly passes).

I'll mention that DeCamp buses in NJ also announced termination of their commuter routes this week, and (unlike DAATCO) have some numbers, which by my math work out to a roughly 50% decline in passenger loads per-trip vs pre-pandemic. For private services....unless they were incredibly profitable pre-pandemic it seems difficult to imagine how they'd be turning a profit now if those are the kind of numbers they're seeing on suburban ridership.
 
This is by no means a Massachusetts-only problem, but it baffles me how the MBTA and MassDOT are perennially unwilling to fund obvious bus services. South Coast Rail is worth a billion dollars, but we can't subsidize a few bus trips in the meantime? (I don't even think Fall River had direct bus service to Boston even before these cuts.) We're studying Northern Tier passenger rail, but there's only two Greenfield-Boston round trips on Greyhound per day, and the rest of the corridor is served only by slow MART and FRTA local service. Even with the GLX, a project that absolutely was worth the cost, there was zero willingness to meaningfully increase bus service in the corridor during the endless delays.
 
The EGE said:
This is by no means a Massachusetts-only problem, but it baffles me how the MBTA and MassDOT are perennially unwilling to fund obvious bus services. South Coast Rail is worth a billion dollars, but we can't subsidize a few bus trips in the meantime? (I don't even think Fall River had direct bus service to Boston even before these cuts.) We're studying Northern Tier passenger rail, but there's only two Greenfield-Boston round trips on Greyhound per day, and the rest of the corridor is served only by slow MART and FRTA local service. Even with the GLX, a project that absolutely was worth the cost, there was zero willingness to meaningfully increase bus service in the corridor during the endless delays.
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Right now the T cannot attract enough drivers to even cover current service. I suspect that is one of the barriers to expanded service -- it makes no sense to promise the service if you cannot actually run it.
 
Java King said:
@F-Line to Dudley the curved Middleboro platform piqued my interest in the construction photos. I thought you mentioned it was not feasible for a curved platform near the Wynn Casino in Everett? I'm sure it's not desirable, but it seems like the MBTA opted for this curved platform at this location in Middleboro. Do you know why it's acceptable here in Middleboro and not in Everett?

View attachment 35545
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It's not the curve with Everett. It's the grade. Next to the casino the Eastern Route is on a 3% grade coming off the Mystic bridge, steepest on the whole Purple Line. That's too steep by almost half for ADA platform regulations, so it can't legally be built.

There are plenty of curved platforms out there. East Weymouth and Waymouth Landing on the Greenbush Line, for example.
 
jklo said:
If bus service is that unprofitable... even at $31/RT... yikes. SCR is going to be such a money pit.
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I’m optimistic that the train is just such a nicer mode of transport than the bus even with longer travel time that it will attract riders who’d never consider the bus. I’d also imagine the CR would be used well for weekend and holiday leisure combined with UMass Dartmouth student trips.
 
Koopzilla24 said:
I’m optimistic that the train is just such a nicer mode of transport than the bus even with longer travel time that it will attract riders who’d never consider the bus. I’d also imagine the CR would be used well for weekend and holiday leisure combined with UMass Dartmouth student trips.
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I don't think that your optimism is unfounded. Having lived and commuted from the South Coast for a long time, the bus wasn't something anyone other than regular commuters really thought about as an option for getting to/from Boston. On the other hand, the Commuter Rail is commonly used by people heading to games, the Aquarium, concerts, the airport, etc. The stations are very visible, train-specific, and in prominent locations as opposed to park & rides and downtown bus stations that most locals avoid. The novelty factor of riding on a train combined with avoiding traffic on the the highway is also a big part of the appeal. Cost might also be factor. Peter Pan, Dattco (when it was running) , and Bloom can cost $30 or more round trip whereas the Commuter Rail is $24.50 on weekdays and $10 on weekends with a weekend pass. Kids under 11 are free on MBTA trains but they're full-fare on the buses. Even with the stupid long ride times, it's still a better (and faster) option than the bus on most days.
 
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Lrfox said:
I don't think that your optimism is unfounded. Having lived and commuted from the South Coast for a long time, the bus wasn't something anyone other than regular commuters really thought about as an option for getting to/from Boston. On the other hand, the Commuter Rail is commonly used by people heading to games, the Aquarium, concerts, the airport, etc. The stations are very visible, train-specific, and in prominent locations as opposed to park & rides and downtown bus stations that most locals avoid. The novelty factor of riding on a train combined with avoiding traffic on the the highway is also a big part of the appeal. Cost might also be factor. Peter Pan, Dattco (when it was running) , and Bloom can cost $30 or more round trip whereas the Commuter Rail is $24.50 on weekdays and $10 on weekends with a weekend pass. Kids under 11 are free on MBTA trains but they're full-fare on the buses. Even with the stupid long ride times, it's still a better (and faster) option than the bus on most days.
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I’m also just realizing this would connect UMass Dartmouth and UMass Boston via rail at the cheaper inter zone fare
 
Nothing new in this article, but...
commonwealthmagazine.org

Is scrapping of bus service bad sign for South Coast rail?

THE SOUTH COAST'S only bus link to Boston is shutting down next month because ridership is so low, which is raising questions about the viability of
commonwealthmagazine.org commonwealthmagazine.org
I saw they mentioned 3 morning peak trains and 3 evening peak trains to both terminals. Is that actually feasible? I was under the impression that you can't get that kind of frequencies on the single-track Old Colony mainline.
 
Teban54 said:
Nothing new in this article, but...
commonwealthmagazine.org

Is scrapping of bus service bad sign for South Coast rail?

THE SOUTH COAST'S only bus link to Boston is shutting down next month because ridership is so low, which is raising questions about the viability of
commonwealthmagazine.org commonwealthmagazine.org
I saw they mentioned 3 morning peak trains and 3 evening peak trains to both terminals. Is that actually feasible? I was under the impression that you can't get that kind of frequencies on the single-track Old Colony mainline.
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I don't think that there will be any additional trains, it's just that that some Middleborough trains will travel through.
 
Tallguy said:
I don't think that there will be any additional trains, it's just that that some Middleborough trains will travel through.
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That’s my understanding as well, although, if memory serves, there has not been an updated proposed FR/NB schedule since they shifted the Old Colony Lines to clockfacing. So, we’ll see how they handle it.

But yeah, this was one of the downsides of the Middleborough alt: the constraints of OCR capacity.
 
Tallguy said:
I don't think that there will be any additional trains, it's just that that some Middleborough trains will travel through.
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I looked into the schedules and came up with a theoretical schedule for the FR/NB but I don’t know exactly how long a train takes to clear the single track from Southampton-Braintree and estimated only a 3-5min window for the passing track beginning 3min before or after JFK. This is based on the times of the current Middleboro/Lakeville schedule and could only figure in 22 round trips not the 26 MassDOT says. I could also be misinterpreting what they mean for service. I’ll need to move my spreadsheet to my other computer before I can post my scheduling for critique by those more knowledgeable on the subject.
 
@Koopzilla24 — I have no proof of this, but I believe that service plan you linked to hasn’t been updated since the OCR schedule change.

A little while back, I did some analysis to try to determine how the T came up with that “3 round trips per branch” number. I think I posted my conclusions upthread somewhere, but if memory serves, literally all they did was take the Middleborough/Lakeville departure and arrival times and keep those constant while adding on SCR stops before/after. Presumably, they did this so that the scheduling and dispatching north of Middleborough/Lakeville (ie the current system) could remain unmodified, thus simplifying the rest of the analysis. (This is also how they get the “3-3.5 hour off-peak frequencies” figure: that was the frequency between every other off-peak Middleborough train at the time.)

The problem as I see it — and part of why I am skeptical — is that applying that same logic to the current schedule (ie don’t modify anything north of MIDD) gives you something like 2 round trips rather than 3. So if they still want 3, they’ll need to redo the Middleborough schedule, which will also mean redoing the Kingston and Greenbush schedules (for dispatching); it may also require tweaking other schedules — it depends how much equipment gets shared between the OCR and the rest of the system.

So, like I said, I’m skeptical.

To your original question whether 6 peak trains is feasible — I believe this was based on the OCR schedules at the time, which I think did see 6 Middleborough trains arriving in Boston before 9am. But I think (though I’m not positive) this was only possible because some peak direction trips did a layover rather than turning back immediately — ie subsequent inbound trains didn’t need to wait while earlier inbound trains came back south through the single track.
 
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