đź”· Open Thread

bigeman312 said:
Transit or unions. Pick one.
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bigeman312 said:
I'm not going to make such an absurd argument that unions and mass transit are mutually exclusive.
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Is anyone else following this argument?

you are wrong about how *awesome* and *super* and *amazing* all of the MBTA employee/union practices are,
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When have I ever said any of that? Spoiler alert: I haven't.
 
underground said:
Is anyone else following this argument?
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No. Thank you for quoting those next to each other.

Well, it's very clear that the MBTA FMCB, Pioneer Institute, Frontier Institute, the Boston Herald and Gov. Baker can give themselves a hearty pat on the back for a job well done at turning the public on the MBTA and union practices in general.
 
Yeah, this has been very impressive to watch. Sad and depressing, but impressive.

Folks are being spoon fed this stuff and they are asking for more. Expertly done.
 
bigeman312 said:
I am saying that the MBTA unions and employee practices are not working, are corrupt, and are one of the things that are preventing us from having good mass transit. How do you possibly disagree with that. Again, address the actual argument at hand:

"the MBTA unions and employee practices are not working, are corrupt, and are one of the things that are preventing us from having good mass transit."

Please, don't deflect. If you disagree, fine. But why?
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Please. And my "pick one" comment was about the MBTA. Not the entire world.
 
Here's an idea. Why not change the tax system so we can fund the T properly without fucking over the the worker or the working class taxpayers? It's a false dichotomy they are feeding you and you are eating it up. Why don't we go after the folks making 100M rather the folks making 100k. Stop complaining that the guy next to you is getting a few more scraps than you. Spit that shit back in their face and demand better. They WANT us to fight against each other and leave them alone. Don't do it. Turn around. LOOK UP. PUNCH UP, NOT DOWN.
 
statler said:
Here's an idea. Why not change the tax system so we can fund the T properly without fucking over the the worker or the working class taxpayers? Why don't we go after the folks making 100M rather the folks making 100k. Stop complaining that the guy next to you is getting a few more scraps than you. Spit that shit back in their face and demand better. They WANT us to fight against each other and leave them alone. Don't do it. Turn around. LOOK UP. PUNCH UP, NOT DOWN.
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Thanks for the thoughtful response. Who exactly (the folks making 100M/them) are you referring to and what are you proposing? Just higher tax on the rich to fund our mass transit?
 
It's a start, yes. Rewriting the entire tax system, closing loopholes. Changing how corporate taxes are assessed. It's insanely complicated system and impossible to break down in a forum post, but it is severely tilted (and not in our favor).
Unions help break that system and they are being systematically destroyed. The economic divide is going to continue to grow and that in profoundly unhealthy for our society.
I'm pretty pessimistic so I'm not sure if it can be stopped, but I'm sure as hell not going to help speed it up.
 
I agree with this. We need better transit funding. Higher taxes and dedicated funding is part of the solution. But (why) do you believe that the MBTA's widely reported corruption and waste associated with the unions are not part of the problem?
 
I guess I'm upset that it is the part that the media, lawmakers and therefore the public are zeroed in on.
And to be honest with you I really don't have much of a problem with workers making 100k. I wish more workers, private and public made that kind of scratch, but the only way to achieve that is through a radical (by American standards) redistribution of wealth. That's not going to happen in my lifetime, but as I said I'm not going to push back against the few systems that actually help.
 
statler said:
I guess I'm upset that it is the part that the media, lawmakers and therefore the public are zeroed in on.
And to be honest with you I really don't have much of a problem with workers making 100k. I wish more workers, private and public made that kind of scratch, but the only way to achieve that is through a radical (by American standards) redistribution of wealth. That's not going to happen in my lifetime, but as I said I'm not going to push back against the few systems that actually help.
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And it's not just a MA problem. This is the MA example of the national narrative of anti-union/right-to-work & anti-transit rhetoric sweeping the country right now led by GOP thinktanks, the Kochs & politicians. Dividing the country by telling everyone that someone makes more $ than you is how they gain power. We have to resist the rhetoric.
 
Fair enough. Thank you both for actually engaging in the topics at hand. Just to be clear, I do want better transit. I do want more funding. I do want a larger tax base to pay for said transit. I just also don't want my tax dollars to be wasted. And I definitely don't want money that could have otherwise been used for improved transit to instead be thrown "down the drain" (from an aforementioned report that came out today).

At the risk of using another analogy that falls flat, it is clear to me that the pie from which public infrastructure funding is drawn is too small. I would love the size of the pie to grow through dedicated funding. But, as it is now, our small pie is often being spent in ways that helps only the MBTA employees and not the MBTA riders. So, it is natural for the riders to dislike the union as they are directly competing for the same resources. To be more specific, there is a Venn Diagram:

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I hear what you (datadyne and statler) are saying. There needs to be a more thriving middle class. There needs to be more stable jobs for people. But it shouldn't be at the expense of mass transit or transit riders.

I believe the MBTA's top priority should be mass transit, not making sure its union is happy. I would love if we had enough funding where those two concepts were not battling each other, and the T could have good service and highly compensated employees. But with the current state of our transit funding, that is not the reality.

Look, we (statler, datadyne, myself) would love a world where this isn't a debate, and the T has enough funding where the pie is large enough for everybody. I really don't think I am presenting as evil of a position as you think I am. In this world of poor transit funding, I see the T employees compensation and union practices as needing to be cut. Not because I relish in their lack of compensation. But because our transit funding is not where it should be.
 
I don't think you are evil. We just want two different solutions to the same problem. Your solution is definitely the easier of the two, no doubt and probably the most realistic. I just find that profoundly depressing.
 
statler said:
I don't think you are evil. We just want two different solutions to the same problem. Your solution is definitely the easier of the two, no doubt and probably the most realistic. I just find that profoundly depressing.
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+1. This is everything.
 
I'm sorry but still, even if you're conclusion is that the union is wasting money, the idea that we aren't getting more tax funding so the only solution to fix the T is disbanding the union is ridiculous. There are really no other options that you can think of? How about fixing the flawed bidding process? How about removing the Big Dig debt burden? How about removing the forward funding requirement? See, I thought of three without even to spend much time. Instead, we're fixated on the entirely unproven idea that cheap non-union labor is a solution. I'm sorry but this argument just has too many assumptions to be taken seriously, and the fact the assumptions repeatedly mimics national political talking points from bizarre right wing radicals doesn't help.
 
I've never once said that the unions were the only problems. I'm pretty sure there is a latin name for that logical fallacy.

The fact of the matter is that the MBTA doesn't currently have enough funding for both their union practices and good mass transit. You wouldn't engage me in a civil discussion, like datadyne or statler did, so this is the last time I will engage with you today. Good day.
 
The fact of the matter is that the MBTA doesn't currently have enough funding for both their union practices and good mass transit.
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And so the conclusion is that we have to break up the union. Again, that's a major assumption. Sorry you don't find that civil.
 
I'm pretty tired of every thread on the MBTA devolving into an argument about unions. There are plenty of other issues with the MBTA and transit projects that do not get much play elsewhere that get discussed here, which makes this a valuable little corner of the internet. If I wanted to read ill-informed assumptions about the inner workings about the MBTA I would read the Boston Herald.
 
bigeman312 said:
I've never once said that the unions were the only problems. I'm pretty sure there is a latin name for that logical fallacy.
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Actually it's one of those that doesn't have a latin name. Just a Straw Man!
 
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