50 Liberty @ Fan Pier | 50 Liberty Drive | Seaport

sm89 said:
So the below-grade parking garage stretches seamlessly under all of the buildings. It's pretty cool.
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Cool until the next hurricane comes along, then it will look like this.

floating_cars_after_hurricane_sandy_hit_manhattan.jpg


The garage is a good use of space, but I just hope they put the important mechanical/electrical systems on the roof, and tell everyone to move their cars to higher ground.
 
BeeLine said:
https://flic.kr/p/z16Jig

Not sure if this means they are about to repair the seawall, but it really needs it.
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By the way, this captures well how ridiculously high high tide seems here. If you look just below the gangway you can see the very top of the seawall. It won't take much of a nor'easter to get the ground floors wet around here, someday soon....
 
Mmmmm, could I please have a piece of the groundfloor?
 
CSTH said:
By the way, this captures well how ridiculously high high tide seems here. If you look just below the gangway you can see the very top of the seawall. It won't take much of a nor'easter to get the ground floors wet around here, someday soon....
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Wow, that's both a bit scary, and exciting to think about the future MBTA Gondolier line.
 
Full moon, storm offshore... You're looking at a tides that's close to as high as you'll see outside of a major storm.
 
Lrfox said:
Full moon, storm offshore... You're looking at a tides that's close to as high as you'll see outside of a major storm.
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The moon's more or less at perigee as well (the so-called "supermoon".) We're very lucky we didn't have those factors in play during Sandy.
 
Had the first major snowstorm of the season, which hit Jan. 27, arrived just several hours earlier, flooding in coastal communities like Scituate would have been worse. Had it hit the week before, there could have been devastating floods in the city of Boston.

“We would have been in uncharted territory with impacts probably comparable with what New York City had with [Superstorm] Sandy,” Bob Thompson, meteorologist-in-charge of the National Weather Service forecast office in Taunton, said at Saturday’s conference. “We’ve dodged bullets over the last several years and this was one of them — where a relatively modest change in time could make a big difference.”
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http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...orse-boston/SMfjIijjHxtD8OlCFeDf4M/story.html

That said, they (either the government and/or the insurers) have changed the building codes/practices for structures near the waterfront, with mechanicals and electrical being moved from the basement and lowest floor.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazin...rising-seas/8mF4YVWgAMzDGQexMF35FK/story.html
 
CSTH said:
By the way, this captures well how ridiculously high high tide seems here. If you look just below the gangway you can see the very top of the seawall. It won't take much of a nor'easter to get the ground floors wet around here, someday soon....
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CSTH -- if that is a recent shot at high tide it is one of the Astronomically Highest Tides associated with the Super Full Moon -- aka the King Tide [perhaps of King Canute Tide?] :cool:
 
Yeah I totally recognize that the tide was super high.

Keep in mind, though, that the pavilion in the long wharf shot is an emergency exit to the blue line. There's another blue line entrance at the other end of the wharf, which is tied into the Artery tunnel.

Does anyone think the MBTA was keeping a close eye on the weather this week, and was ready to implement a response and mitigation action plan if the wind hit specific intensity and duration thresholds? I don't think so.

The issue is not whether the carpets at Strega in 1MPD get wet and salty - its whether all our very expensive, very fragile, and very critical underground infrastructure gets put out of commission for a very long time, all of a sudden.

I know the chance of any given big storm coming exactly at high tide is low, and the chance of one coming at a super high tide is even lower. But over 10 years? or 20 years? or 50? As a complete SWAG, I'm willing to put the probability of at least 2 major pieces of infrastructure being badly damaged by a storm flood during my lifetime at >50%. And it will be a lucky thing if no one dies when it happens.

That shouldn't be an acceptable risk, and it continues to amaze me that no one in a position of power or influence is talking about it. A barrier would pay for itself in reduced insurance premiums alone.

(And yes, i recognize wrong thread, apologies)
 
CSTH said:
Yeah I totally recognize that the tide was super high.

Keep in mind, though, that the pavilion in the long wharf shot is an emergency exit to the blue line. There's another blue line entrance at the other end of the wharf, which is tied into the Artery tunnel.

Does anyone think the MBTA was keeping a close eye on the weather this week, and was ready to implement a response and mitigation action plan if the wind hit specific intensity and duration thresholds? I don't think so.

The issue is not whether the carpets at Strega in 1MPD get wet and salty - its whether all our very expensive, very fragile, and very critical underground infrastructure gets put out of commission for a very long time, all of a sudden.

I know the chance of any given big storm coming exactly at high tide is low, and the chance of one coming at a super high tide is even lower. But over 10 years? or 20 years? or 50? As a complete SWAG, I'm willing to put the probability of at least 2 major pieces of infrastructure being badly damaged by a storm flood during my lifetime at >50%. And it will be a lucky thing if no one dies when it happens.

That shouldn't be an acceptable risk, and it continues to amaze me that no one in a position of power or influence is talking about it. A barrier would pay for itself in reduced insurance premiums alone.

(And yes, i recognize wrong thread, apologies)
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Ongoing sea level rise makes those chances go up exponentially. In a few more decades it won't take a super storm, just a bad Nor'easter.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Ongoing sea level rise makes those chances go up exponentially. In a few more decades it won't take a super storm, just a bad Nor'easter.
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Jeff, Csth -- When was the last time that anything other than the Charles and its tributaries flooded critical infrastructure? [i.e. the Green Line] -- excepting of course the Molasses Flood [aka Dark Tide]

If someone is really concerned -- a few cubic yards of concrete around the top of the exit stair is all you need to prevent major flooding -- just as a foot or two of sandbags placed around the entry stairs would have kept the NYC MTA from flooding

While I don't think that the sea level in Boston will be significantly higher during the rest of the 21st C -- if you do -- then rather than Wail -- do some "Plan B"

As I made a point of studying these for the DHS:

  • Sandy -- rather than using the National Guard to evacuate the hospitals in NYC that lost power -- there should have been a plan for the Guard to bring some emergency generation that could be "plugged-in"
  • Sandy -- NJ failed to pre-position gasoline powered emergency generation at the very high capacity gas stations located along the NJ Turnpike and Parkway -- the result when the power went the gas stations had to shut down despite the fact that tens of thousands of gallons of gasoline was sitting a few feet away
  • Katrina -- New Orleans placed the City's Emergency Command in an underground and below sea level bunker -- a Mobile Command Van -- similar to that used by Mass for the 4th -- parked on the 2nd floor of the Super Dome Parking garage would have given them continuing emergency services
  • Katrina -- Despite $Ms spent on the canals and pumping -- no one bothered to place the very very large electric motors than powered the pumps nor the emergency generation providing the electricity to power the motors above the level that the area would have flooded to if the levees were breached -- once again a few cubic yards of concrete to raise the pad would have done wonders
  • Tsunami -- Fukushima Daiichi -- no one bothered to spend a small amount extra to raise the platform where the emergency generation was located result when the grid connections were lost and the batteries ran out no core cooling -- Plann C would have been to provide a way to bring online external pumps [such as large fire pumps] in case all the in-plant pumping was lost
  • Muddy River Flood -- the Green Line -- it should have been obvious that the tracks leaving Kenmore constituted a single point of failure for the entire Green Line -- there should have been both Plan B [a mechanical gate] and Plan C [emergency material that could be dumped] -- But it was the T after all

A little vulnerability analysis coupled with some common sense does a whole lot more good than Gnashing of Teeth, Rending of Garments and Wailing of Widows and Orphans

PS: Jeff do you have any actual measurements that show any significant rise of Sea Level at Boston over historic times -- I don't think so
 
Don't forget that during Sandy, it was revealed that numerous buildings constructed on landfill (and some even below sea level) had their emergency generators in the basement. This was what ruined Bellevue/NYU Langone and nearly caused disasters at Rockefeller and Weill-Cornell.
 
stellarfun said:
For those aboding in the 'burbs.

sea%20level%20rise%20projected%20large_tcm3-27683.png


(One Source, larger image is in pdf file)
http://energy.pace.edu/sites/defaul...wnloads/Swett_Brian_MGrids_Boston_12FEB13.pdf

See also:
https://tamino.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/hotspot-data/
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Stel -- looks to me that if I was bolted to the deck in 1920 with the waves just lapping at my toes - ala Canute -- then in 100 years [circa now] I would have my ankles getting wet and in another hundred years my socks would be soaked -- not exactly frighteningly risey

Of course it would be interesting to see what the raw data looks like as this is "processed to remove the annual cycle" -- however no one seems interesting to remove any other potential longer cycles that just might be in the remaining data?
 
curcuas said:
Don't forget that during Sandy, it was revealed that numerous buildings constructed on landfill (and some even below sea level) had their emergency generators in the basement. This was what ruined Bellevue/NYU Langone and nearly caused disasters at Rockefeller and Weill-Cornell.
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Curcas -- Well stated

Its mostly stupidity and pseudo-benign neglect that leads to those "Epic Disasters"

If the "Great New England Hurricane" aka the "Long Island Express" of 1938 had hit where Sandy hit -- they would still be pumping out the Central Park Lagoon

That was truly a storm of epic proportions with 100 MPH winds being recorded in Both Boston and NYC and with downtown Providence a story underwater [see below]
1121866195_2054.jpg
hurricane-of-1938-providence-flooded.jpg
1938PROV445.jpg
 
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