[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
I am always willing to be educated.

Show me any multi-unit residential building where the sales price for a unit is $1,000 a sq ft or higher, and the building's facade and general appearance looks like crap.

Remember, Chiofaro has said his development/construction costs for his 1.3 million sq ft structure were going to be $1 billion, so he is not thinking of $300 a sq ft sales price for the units he would build.
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First of all stellar, the 1.3million sq ft, $1 billion dollar project is not the current 200 ft plan. Shoot if it was, the project would have to extend over the waterfront. Thus the current scale down version with only luxury condos would not need to be near $1,000 per square foot. Most likely the construction cost would be lower since no demolition is required, only the strengthening of the pylons.

Second of all, I will counter your statement by stating that even luxurious condos with good facade often do not have condos that cost over $1000/sq foot.

Case in point (listed as floor/price/space/bed&bath/pricebyfoot/maintenance):

45 Province St:
15 $499,000 535 0 / 1 $932/ft $322
11 $625,000 966 2 / 2 $646/ft $433
16 $776,000 966 2 / 2 $803/ft $748
12 $970,000 1291 2 / 2 $751/ft $988
21 $1,975,000 1507 2 / 2 $1310/ft *
25 $3,964,000 2872 3 / 3.5 $1380/ft $3,224

Intercontinental Place
14 $339,900 426 0 / 1 $797/ft $691
18 $695,000 860 1 / 1.5 $808/ft $1,057
16 $779,000 858 1 / 1.5 $907/ft $890
21 $995,000 1257 2 / 2 $791/ft $1,650
20 $1,075,000 1263 2 / 2 $851/ft $1,646
17 $1,375,000 1484 2 / 2.5 $926/ft $1,956
18 $1,495,000 1546 2 / 2.5 $967/ft $1,986
21 $3,400,000 3020 3 / 4.5 $1125/ft $3,718
20 $3,750,000 2873 3 / 3.5 $1305/ft $3,843
21 $6,450,000 4752 4 / 4.5 $1357/ft $5,986

MacAllen:
4 $465,000 793 1 / 1 $586/ft $507
2 $469,900 820 1 / 1 $573/ft $521
4 $499,900 855 1 / 1 $584/ft $482
5 $509,000 1052 1 / 1 $483/ft $624
5 $519,000 1031 1 / 1 $503/ft $607
5 $524,000 1103 1 / 1 $475/ft $599
7 $549,000 1089 1 / 2 $504/ft $593
7 $579,000 1200 2 / 2 $482/ft $529
5 $695,000 1346 2 / 2 $516/ft $672
12 $799,000 1279 2 / 2 $624/ft $780
7 $889,000 1656 1 / 1.5 $536/ft $1,116
6 $899,000 1722 2 / 2 $522/ft $908
6 $899,000 1690 2 / 2 $531/ft $889
6 $1,155,000 1850 2 / 2 $624/ft $990
10 $1,175,000 1864 2 / 2 $630/ft $1,276

Note how when there is a unit that cost more than $1000/ft, it is usually near the upper floors and/or has a huge amount of space. Space and price do not move in a one to one proportion (as in once space hits a certain amount the cost per foot increases. Similar to how progressive tax works with amount of income). Even when buildings have multiple $1000/foot, it's normally due to floor level and space + amenities.

Ritz Carlton:
3 $599,500 967 1 / 1.5 $619/ft $1,217
8 $659,000 1276 2 / 2 $516/ft $1,549
3 $699,000 1059 1 / 1.5 $660/ft $1,184
27 $785,000 803 1 / 1.5 $977/ft $933
19 $795,000 884 1 / 1.5 $899/ft $989
23 $819,000 803 1 / 1.5 $1019/ft $900
11 $869,000 1085 2 / 2 $800/ft $1,184
9 $999,900 1240 2 / 2 $806/ft $1,900
16 $1,025,000 1131 2 / 2 $906/ft $1,212
11 $1,200,000 1402 2 / 2.5 $855/ft $1,548
36 $1,399,000 1257 2 / 2 $1112/ft $1,597
21 $1,498,000 1504 2 / 2.5 $996/ft $1,746
23 $1,575,000 1573 2 / 2.5 $1001/ft $1,772
27 $1,675,000 1573 2 / 2.5 $1064/ft $1,837
28 $1,675,000 1573 2 / 2.5 $1064/ft $1,848
30 $1,695,000 1573 2 / 2.5 $1077/ft $1,885
34 $1,925,000 1880 3 / 3 $1023/ft $2,275
25 $1,995,000 2036 2 / 2.5 $979/ft $2,441
33 $2,125,000 2036 2 / 2.5 $1043/ft $2,634
32 $2,500,000 2242 2 / 2.5 $1115/ft $2,815
20 $2,799,000 2667 3 / 4.5 $1049/ft $3,094
22 $3,250,000 2667 3 / 4.5 $1218/ft $3,094
31 $3,695,000 2667 3 / 4.5 $1385/ft $3,367
35 $3,750,000 2667 3 / 4.5 $1406/ft $3,492
34 $5,395,000 3246 4 / 4.5 $1662/ft $4,016
32 $6,200,000 4200 3 / 4.5 $1476/ft $5,061
PH $6,900,000 4421 4 / 5.5 $1560/ft $5,831
29 $8,990,000 5594 5 / 4.5 $1607/ft $6,438

However don't let facade trick you. There is an autocorrelation within buildings with bad facade and price. Most of the time, buildings with bad facade lacks good amenities or the same amount as a better looking one. If Chiofaro builds one that is loaded with amenities, I can guarantee you the price per foot will go up. You also have to note that certain amenities will bring a higher price. If I was given enough resources (money, researchers, and time), I could probably do a study on which amenities tend to boost price, at which floor will have the most affect on price, distance from CBD and how it affects price, and then put facade as a dummy variable to test its significance. But so far the evidence I provide should be sufficient. Here's the source for my numbers:

http://www.luxuryboston.com/

My conclusion: Chiofaro is in good position to build a shitty building. A shitty building that probably has a pool, a gym, restaurants, etc.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Don't worry KentXie...that garage will be redeveloped...It'll be after Mumbles leaves office, but it'll be redeveloped into someting nice. Even if Rob Consalvo becomes mayor, rest asure that he would work with Chifaro.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

KentXie, I asked for an example of a building with a cruddy facade and outward appearance, --not the Ritz, unless you consider the Ritz's lower facade to be the equivalent of the existing Harbor Garage.

My original proposition was that if Chiofaro built on top of the garage, he would gussy up the current garage facade so that you'd never recognize it.

You then claimed, as an undergraduate who is taking a course in urban economics, that facade and appearance were secondary when it came to what was important to buyers of very expensive condos, in effect they'd willingly buy a unit atop the current garage retaining its current ugly facade because other things mattered much more.

So I am still waiting....
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
KentXie, I asked for an example of a building with a cruddy facade and outward appearance, --not the Ritz, unless you consider the Ritz's lower facade to be the equivalent of the existing Harbor Garage.

My original proposition was that if Chiofaro built on top of the garage, he would gussy up the current garage facade so that you'd never recognize it.

You then claimed, as an undergraduate who is taking a course in urban economics, that facade and appearance were secondary when it came to what was important to buyers of very expensive condos, in effect they'd willingly buy a unit atop the current garage retaining its current ugly facade because other things mattered much more.

So I am still waiting....
Click to expand...

Fine. On my previous post, I have already proven to you that facade does not matter. I have also stated that you are incorrect on Chiofaro's construction cost and surface space. With those premises set, I do not need to break the $1,000/sqft because, as I have stated, he does not need condos at the price to make bank. Also, even though you seem to have entirely skipped reading this portion in my previous post, I noted that factors such as amenities play a part of the price and that the more expensive condos have better amenities such as a gym, pool, etc. while those with ugly facade tend to lack it. The implication is that, it's not the facade that is responsible for the price gap, but the services they offer. With this you get:

The Harbors Towers, a tower that looks hideous yet still charges prices up to $800+/sqft. These two towers offer prices that are on par or even more expensive than the MacAllen

Harbor Towers
14 $425,000 747 1 / 1 $568/ft $601
12 $435,000 876 1 / 1 $496/ft $673
18 $449,900 755 1 / 1 $595/ft $562
34 $479,000 861 1 / 1 $556/ft $653
19 $495,000 876 1 / 1 $565/ft $674
6 $499,000 865 1 / 1 $576/ft $577
23 $525,000 878 1 / 1 $597/ft $605
29 $529,000 881 1 / 1 $600/ft $718
38 $596,500 884 1 / 1 $674/ft $743
26 $639,000 1210 1 / 1.5 $528/ft $797
26 $639,000 1227 1 / 1.5 $520/ft $1,055
20 $645,000 1211 2 / 1.5 $532/ft $780
28 $659,000 959 1 / 1.5 $687/ft $605
12 $825,000 1633 2 / 2 $505/ft $1,060
17 $1,199,000 1640 2 / 2.5 $731/ft $1,424
22 $1,595,000 2390 3 / 2.5 $667/ft $1,733
20 $1,795,000 2398 3 / 3 $748/ft $2,000
10 $2,395,000 2876 3 / 3.5 $832/ft $2,363

It is also on par with buildings such as the Folio minus the penthouse (which I add the Harbor Towers do not have)

Folio
4 $419,000 708 1 / 1 $591/ft $430
9 $465,000 604 1 / 1.5 $769/ft $383
6 $525,000 760 1 / 1 $690/ft $490
4 $729,000 1107 2 / 1.5 $658/ft $693
3 $799,000 1213 2 / 2 $658/ft $717
5 $899,000 1410 2 / 2 $637/ft $1,006
PH $1,295,000 1664 2 / 2.5 $778/ft $1,480
PH $2,975,000 3165 4 / 3.5 $939/ft $3,297

And beats out the Metropolitan
16 $275,000 489 1 / 1 $562/ft $307
15 $569,500 1120 2 / 2 $508/ft $709

And before reaching the 20th floor, is on par with 45 Province St.
15 $499,000 535 0 / 1 $932/ft $322
11 $625,000 966 2 / 2 $646/ft $433
16 $776,000 966 2 / 2 $803/ft $748
12 $970,000 1291 2 / 2 $751/ft $988
21 $1,975,000 1507 2 / 2 $1310/ft *
25 $3,964,000 2872 3 / 3.5 $1380/ft $3,224

And the Modern (Price, Bed/bath, Sqft, Floor, $/ft)

$699,000 1 / 1.0 1,218 6 $574/ft
$929,000 1 / 1.5 1,301 7 $714/ft

Not only that, most of the projects listed with superior facade is on par with the hideous hulk that is Tremont on the Common

Floor List Price Size(SF) Beds/Baths Price/Foot Maint
17 $429,000 580 0 / 1 $739/ft $334
6 $449,000 590 0 / 1 $761/ft $330
15 $459,000 605 0 / 1 $758/ft $397
17 $699,000 1065 2 / 2 $656/ft $556

Conclusion: Facade plays little to no effect on price. Owners sees outwardly look as secondary to other factors.

Also, in case you missed it earlier, I'll restate it again. Do not get tricked by a building with a better facade because those with good designs tend to have better amenities. This means that facade correlates with price, but is not the cause of the price.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^ Sounds like book knowledge.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

ablarc said:
^ Sounds like book knowledge.
Click to expand...

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
attributed to Alexander Pope.

Assuming that the residential top-of-the-garage project is 400,000 sq ft (8 floors with a 50,000 sq ft footprint per floor)

The land costs for the Harbor Garage are about $200 million, which works out to $500 a square foot per condo. ($155 million purchase, plus interest on the financing.)

Assuming hard construction costs are $300 a sq ft, and soft costs are $150 a sq ft. Assume Chiofaro is happy with a profit of about 15 percent, or $150 a sq ft.

That works out to an asking price of $1,100 a sq ft. Which is less than half the price of condos at the Mandarin Oriental, and about $150 a sq ft more than condos at the Four Seasons. But hey, the fact that your condo sits atop an I M Pei concrete behemoth (preserved in its glory for all posterity) is worth it.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

stellarfun said:
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
attributed to Alexander Pope.

Assuming that the residential top-of-the-garage project is 400,000 sq ft (8 floors with a 50,000 sq ft footprint per floor)

The land costs for the Harbor Garage are about $200 million, which works out to $500 a square foot per condo. ($155 million purchase, plus interest on the financing.)

Assuming hard construction costs are $300 a sq ft, and soft costs are $150 a sq ft. Assume Chiofaro is happy with a profit of about 15 percent, or $150 a sq ft.

That works out to an asking price of $1,100 a sq ft. Which is less than half the price of condos at the Mandarin Oriental, and about $150 a sq ft more than condos at the Four Seasons. But hey, the fact that your condo sits atop an I M Pei concrete behemoth (preserved in its glory for all posterity) is worth it.
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Hey, I didn't decide this fate. All I claim is that Chiofaro's threat is not an empty threat.

Also you forgot to calculate the profit Chiofaro will make from the garage.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Yea threads like this bring down the website IMHO. Get a tinychat channel going about AB and take it there
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I haven't read back a couple pages yet, but I apologize for being out of line. Was in a mood.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Suffolk 83 said:
Yea threads like this bring down the website IMHO. Get a tinychat channel going about AB and take it there
Click to expand...

Lets move this discussion to the Filenes project and talk about that shithole.

You know what would really help this website? How about some Developments in the city that can actually be built.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

baby-crying.jpg
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

^^^^

Is that the new developer for Filenes.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

@Suffolk, posting something like that would also bring the website down just so you know. Van can we get a cleanup?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I've enjoyed the discussion in this thread, including the back and forth between Stellarfun and KentXie, none of which I had considered before. However much I disagree with GreenwayGuy, his posts offered information that was relevant and interesting.

Nothing to clean up.

IMHO.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Suffolk83, If you don't like what is being posted than don't read the blog.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

TheRifleman said:
Lets move this discussion to the Filenes project and talk about that shithole.

You know what would really help this website? How about some Developments in the city that can actually be built.
Click to expand...
^like^
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Suffolk83, If you don't like what is being posted than don't read the blog.
Click to expand...

I don't read this thread and I probably miss out on any new info. That's what I'm bitching about. I like this site because it has good info all in one place but I can't sit on here and wade through pages and pages of nonsense.



@Kent, its one picture, not pages and pages of useless dick measuring by ppl not involved with the project first hand. You did this with the CC thread and bogged that down too. Now you've got new ppl to argue with. Go make a tinychat channel like I said, oh wait y'all probably dont want to argue face to face because one you're probably shy and two you cant research your answers for 45 minutes before responding.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Suffolk 83 said:
I don't read this thread and I probably miss out on any new info. That's what I'm bitching about. I like this site because it has good info all in one place but I can't sit on here and wade through pages and pages of nonsense.



@Kent, its one picture, not pages and pages of useless dick measuring by ppl not involved with the project first hand. You did this with the CC thread and bogged that down too. Now you've got new ppl to argue with. Go make a tinychat channel like I said, oh wait y'all probably dont want to argue face to face because one you're probably shy and two you cant research your answers for 45 minutes before responding.
Click to expand...

Oh I'm sorry and what helpful info have you provided? Oh nothing? Keep moving. This isn't a wikipedia page. It's a forum so why don't you look up the purpose of a forum before you complain.

Oh and clearly the earlier post on condo price is not research. I merely pulled the numbers out of my ass.

As for everyone else, I apologize if I posted non-informational posts. I will stop that as of now. If Suffolk wants to continue this meaningless fight while calling out members behind a computer screen in the safety of his home, then that's fine with me.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Back to the topic at hand.

3829669-8664057-thumbnail.jpg


Photo credit here.
 
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