type001
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[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown
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AmericanFolkLegend
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
From the Herald article:
That's like $130K per space. Isn't that ridiculous? I thought the rule of thumb was $30K/spot for above ground and 2x that for below ground.
I wonder if Chiafaro is posturing or if this is just uber expensive because of the proximity to the harbor and/or the need to preserve parking for Harbor Towers during construction.
From the Herald article:
That's like $130K per space. Isn't that ridiculous? I thought the rule of thumb was $30K/spot for above ground and 2x that for below ground.
I wonder if Chiafaro is posturing or if this is just uber expensive because of the proximity to the harbor and/or the need to preserve parking for Harbor Towers during construction.
dirtywater
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Don't know how real his number is, but I believe he has to relocate infrastructure for Harbor Towers located in the garage as well as the parking itself. Proximity to the harbor will also drive up his costs. In addition, since he has to demolish the existing garage to relocate the parking, I suspect that he is including the demolition costs in this calculation.
Don't know how real his number is, but I believe he has to relocate infrastructure for Harbor Towers located in the garage as well as the parking itself. Proximity to the harbor will also drive up his costs. In addition, since he has to demolish the existing garage to relocate the parking, I suspect that he is including the demolition costs in this calculation.
Downburst
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Looks like KPF and ADD will be heading this one up. KPF has a penchant for distinctive crowns (Hudson Yards, Guangzhou CTF center, etc.) and with the angular bases I hope they do the same here. Please, anything but a flat roof.
Looks like KPF and ADD will be heading this one up. KPF has a penchant for distinctive crowns (Hudson Yards, Guangzhou CTF center, etc.) and with the angular bases I hope they do the same here. Please, anything but a flat roof.
fattony
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
IIRC, he takes $15 million out of that garage annually. Regardless of the per-space cost that is a 10% annual ROI. Putting an additional $180 million into the garage to sink it brings his cost basis to $330 million, but he won't likely pull much more than $15 million per year out of the same number of spaces, dropping his ROI around 5%. That's actually not terrible on it's own merits, but he's not starting from scratch. He's starting from 10%. There is no reason to voluntarily reduce your ROI on the garage portion unless you are getting paid more than enough to make up for it on the rest of the development.
IIRC, he takes $15 million out of that garage annually. Regardless of the per-space cost that is a 10% annual ROI. Putting an additional $180 million into the garage to sink it brings his cost basis to $330 million, but he won't likely pull much more than $15 million per year out of the same number of spaces, dropping his ROI around 5%. That's actually not terrible on it's own merits, but he's not starting from scratch. He's starting from 10%. There is no reason to voluntarily reduce your ROI on the garage portion unless you are getting paid more than enough to make up for it on the rest of the development.
TheRifleman
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
The more and more I look at the Renderings I believe the ground floor is unbelievable.
Retractable Roof so the Building can enjoy all seasons
Open to the public
activates the entire area to the Greenway to the Water
Would like to know what happens to IMAX? They should probably relocate this.
This is AWESOME for Boston
The more and more I look at the Renderings I believe the ground floor is unbelievable.
Retractable Roof so the Building can enjoy all seasons
Open to the public
activates the entire area to the Greenway to the Water
Would like to know what happens to IMAX? They should probably relocate this.
This is AWESOME for Boston
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Looking at the Aquarium in these renders next to the proposed building makes the Aquarium look like a dump. It's too bad it could not be moved over to the South Boston Waterfront where a brand new, state of the art facility would be built.
Looking at the Aquarium in these renders next to the proposed building makes the Aquarium look like a dump. It's too bad it could not be moved over to the South Boston Waterfront where a brand new, state of the art facility would be built.
Equilibria
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Well, it IS state-of-the-art... on the inside. They tried to spice up the outside when the built the IMAX and entrance pavilion. Didn't work at all.
The location of the Aquarium is actually great. They just need some serious re-cladding and exterior work. No money for that at a non-profit.
Well, it IS state-of-the-art... on the inside. They tried to spice up the outside when the built the IMAX and entrance pavilion. Didn't work at all.
The location of the Aquarium is actually great. They just need some serious re-cladding and exterior work. No money for that at a non-profit.
TheRifleman
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Like I said before (I wish the developer could Incorporate the Aquarium with his project and rebuild the entire area but I guess that was never a viable option.)
I would rather give my tax breaks to something like that scenario than the Fan Pier deal.
Getting a new Aquarium out of the deal which the developer would have to maintain the costs over-time would be worth every penny to the public.
Like I said before (I wish the developer could Incorporate the Aquarium with his project and rebuild the entire area but I guess that was never a viable option.)
I would rather give my tax breaks to something like that scenario than the Fan Pier deal.
Getting a new Aquarium out of the deal which the developer would have to maintain the costs over-time would be worth every penny to the public.
underground
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
The Aquarium really just needs a scrub down, and a rethink of the cladding from the IMax overhaul. Nothing extreme on the outside.
The Aquarium really just needs a scrub down, and a rethink of the cladding from the IMax overhaul. Nothing extreme on the outside.
Padre Mike
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Hyperbole: pictoral, descriptive, literary...does anyone remember the proposal in the 60's for the 1976 World's Fair to be built at Pleasure Bay that appeared in the Boston Globe magazine? I didn't think so. In the end the garage will have to go and we'll have to swallow whatever gets ultimately built. At least it'll be fun to read this site along the way!
Hyperbole: pictoral, descriptive, literary...does anyone remember the proposal in the 60's for the 1976 World's Fair to be built at Pleasure Bay that appeared in the Boston Globe magazine? I didn't think so. In the end the garage will have to go and we'll have to swallow whatever gets ultimately built. At least it'll be fun to read this site along the way!
EdMc
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Thought so. Glad to have invoked such civil discourse. Obviously, some of the posters on this forum are children. My only response is that big doesn't belong on a waterfront, that a 600 foot skyscraper and a 550 foot skyscraper, both of which "exceed the property’s recommended height limit of 200 feet", on the edge of a waterfront are an urban design violation. I'm entitled to an opinion without a blowback of wrath. Bye.
Thought so. Glad to have invoked such civil discourse. Obviously, some of the posters on this forum are children. My only response is that big doesn't belong on a waterfront, that a 600 foot skyscraper and a 550 foot skyscraper, both of which "exceed the property’s recommended height limit of 200 feet", on the edge of a waterfront are an urban design violation. I'm entitled to an opinion without a blowback of wrath. Bye.
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
You're entitled to your opinion and we are entitled to the wrathful blowback. Free speech doesn't mean no consequences. Also saying the garage is an open structure is blind and a 200' height limit is totally arbitrary to force concessions. If you need evidence look at the closed fenced 400' towers next door.
You're entitled to your opinion and we are entitled to the wrathful blowback. Free speech doesn't mean no consequences. Also saying the garage is an open structure is blind and a 200' height limit is totally arbitrary to force concessions. If you need evidence look at the closed fenced 400' towers next door.
stellarfun
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
With respect to the garage's current ROI, when Chiofaro refinanced his five year note a while back, the amount of the note increased IIRC. So over the course of five years, he paid no principal, with a balloon payment due at the end.
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As for demolition of the present garage, he still hasn't figured out where/how to provide spaces for Harbor Tower tenants. These tenants have an easement/covenant/whatever securing x number of spaces in the existing garage until 2021(?). IIRC, the easement is extinguished by about that date. So that gives Chiofaro seven years to line up his financing, and then he can start demolition unhindered.
With respect to the garage's current ROI, when Chiofaro refinanced his five year note a while back, the amount of the note increased IIRC. So over the course of five years, he paid no principal, with a balloon payment due at the end.
______________________
As for demolition of the present garage, he still hasn't figured out where/how to provide spaces for Harbor Tower tenants. These tenants have an easement/covenant/whatever securing x number of spaces in the existing garage until 2021(?). IIRC, the easement is extinguished by about that date. So that gives Chiofaro seven years to line up his financing, and then he can start demolition unhindered.
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
I still like my circular ice rink AROUND the building idea. Would be fun and I'm not sure it's been ever done (but I could very well be wrong).
I still like my circular ice rink AROUND the building idea. Would be fun and I'm not sure it's been ever done (but I could very well be wrong).
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)
Problem is, you've done something that does not make for civil Civil Discourse: You've staked out personal preferences, cloaked them in fallacious or hypocritically cherry-picked legal cover, and presented them as if your opinions must command universal assent:
"doesn't belong" (a pure opinion)
"exceed recommended height limit" (a fallible, changeable law)
"urban design violation" (a pure opinion on some imagined True Design)
There's a lot to be said for a 200' height limit in the "last block" before the water. Problem here is the garage perfectly conforms to all massing and setback expectations and produces an unassailable economic return exactly as it is. It also abuts two 400' violators, which as much suggests a trend as it does an outrage.
Given that it is perfectly legal and privately owned, There's only two ways that you can presume to get rid of the thing:
Either stump up about $30,000 per resident in boston and buy out the garage (in which case you need to persuade people that that's the best thing to spend it on, not dictate to them), or give the owner an economic incentive to wreck it himself and build a tower.
But its in a city. The answer to ugly buildings in a diverse city can't be take-by-eminent-domain-and-build-a-park...you get Detroit...plenty of new parkland there...
Nope, its going to be "build something" and probably "build something tall."
Problem is, you've done something that does not make for civil Civil Discourse: You've staked out personal preferences, cloaked them in fallacious or hypocritically cherry-picked legal cover, and presented them as if your opinions must command universal assent:
"doesn't belong" (a pure opinion)
"exceed recommended height limit" (a fallible, changeable law)
"urban design violation" (a pure opinion on some imagined True Design)
There's a lot to be said for a 200' height limit in the "last block" before the water. Problem here is the garage perfectly conforms to all massing and setback expectations and produces an unassailable economic return exactly as it is. It also abuts two 400' violators, which as much suggests a trend as it does an outrage.
Given that it is perfectly legal and privately owned, There's only two ways that you can presume to get rid of the thing:
Either stump up about $30,000 per resident in boston and buy out the garage (in which case you need to persuade people that that's the best thing to spend it on, not dictate to them), or give the owner an economic incentive to wreck it himself and build a tower.
But its in a city. The answer to ugly buildings in a diverse city can't be take-by-eminent-domain-and-build-a-park...you get Detroit...plenty of new parkland there...
Nope, its going to be "build something" and probably "build something tall."
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