[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

[TheRifleman]

Then isn't the city's best move to simply say, "Fine, if you have financing the city will permit you to build as you've proposed. Take it up with the Commonwealth"?

Boston should simply remove itself from the equation. Unless of course you'd prefer this not be built.

Most developers don't have a Billion in cash to build a skyscraper: They need city & state permits and licenses for approval then lure a BlueChip tenant to sign on to lease the future space to convince the bankers or investors that this is a good project to finance. It basically limits the risk when you sign a tenant before construction along with making the financers more comfortable in lending money.

Stellar there are laws in place in MASS that make no sense at all. LIKE "It is illegal to give beer to hospital patients." but they still exist

 

[FortPointGuy]

Politics. Walsh doesn't want to piss off the Harbor Garage people too much. Rich wealthy folks are exactly the kind of folks that come out in Boston elections.

Respectfully disagree (as I think you are referring to Harbor Tower residents). The vast majority of rich people "in Boston" either don't live in Boston (at all, or on a full time basis) or don't really give a hoot who their city councillor or even Mayor is. You have some strong neighborhood coalitions downtown - like the Beacon Hill Civic Association - but they are all swamped by voters in Dorchester, JP, Roxbury, West Roxbury and South Boston. Each one of these non-core neighborhoods have much more sway than downtown. If it were the other way around then Walsh wouldn't be mayor. Connolly would.

The folks at the Harbor Towers are political paper tigers. Their biggest claim to fame will be delaying and slightly shrinking what eventually will get built. Most of the condo owners there rent out the units as it is. Walsh is pushing this through (remember this project was basically dead until Menino actually died) and why wouldn't he - he owes his position to the building trade unions who would like to keep the development pipeline as full as possible.

Would anyone bet against this project NOT getting city tax breaks? I wouldn't.

 

[nm88]

Agree with above. I'd add that many of the remaining live-in owners accept that something big is going to be built next door - sooner or later, no matter the resistance. The ones I know worry more about parking. Water views will remain. City views diminished for some. Real estate values increased? The older ones don't want three years of noise and disruption that building a behemoth will bring. The younger ones look forward to an improved neighborhood - especially eating options. A constant refrain - uncertainty about the developer's ability to deliver quality design. Everyone I know there hates the garage. Some on this forum might be surprised by the diversity of opinion in those buildings.

 

[whighlander]

Agree with above. I'd add that many of the remaining live-in owners accept that something big is going to be built next door - sooner or later, no matter the resistance. The ones I know worry more about parking. Water views will remain. City views diminished for some. Real estate values increased? The older ones don't want three years of noise and disruption that building a behemoth will bring. The younger ones look forward to an improved neighborhood - especially eating options. A constant refrain - uncertainty about the developer's ability to deliver quality design. Everyone I know there hates the garage. Some on this forum might be surprised by the diversity of opinion in those buildings.

If you want to see this tet a tet in a microcosm -- take a look at what is going on with respect to a musch smaller scale proposal for converting a surface parking lot on a derelict wharf into a luxury hotel, underground parking, a park, harborwalk, community boating center, etc.

You'd think a no-brainer -- but yet there are NIMBY's and possibly BANANAs acting as if the developer wanted to burn the USS Constitution and replace the Charlestown Navy Yard with a garbage dump

Go-figure

 

[tangent]

If you want to see this tet a tet in a microcosm -- take a look at what is going on with respect to a musch smaller scale proposal for converting a surface parking lot on a derelict wharf into a luxury hotel, underground parking, a park, harborwalk, community boating center, etc.

You'd think a no-brainer -- but yet there are NIMBY's and possibly BANANAs acting as if the developer wanted to burn the USS Constitution and replace the Charlestown Navy Yard with a garbage dump

Go-figure

No he just doesn't want to pay any taxes.

 

[type001]

Aquarium still crying, but BRA doesn't seem to give a rat's a$$.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...-tower-plan/AV3FiOalKc3ZBbgECtry9K/story.html

 

[Equilibria]

Aquarium still crying, but BRA doesn't seem to give a rat's a$$.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...-tower-plan/AV3FiOalKc3ZBbgECtry9K/story.html

If that's the way they feel about it, they should relocate to Squantum or something. Plenty of parking there! Or they could, you know, build their own damn garage (the way the MOS has). It's not their business what Chiofaro does with his.

 

[atlantaden]

Now we have institutional nimbyism here in Boston.

 

[FortPointGuy]

People can use other garages! Or take the T - to the station named after it! Just build this thing already.

 

[Arlington]

People can use other garages! Or take the T - to the station named after it! Just build this thing already.

The problem is that the Blue Line @ Aquarium's connectivity stinks from North, South, and West, leaving only East Boston and Revere.

Other garages are either crazy expensive or too far or both.

Gov Center is closed. State is awful. Blue@RedMGH never happened. The walk from bus/rail at Haymarket is no picnic, and a trip via commuter rail is a guaranteed-awful 3-seat ride via North Station or Back Bay and hellish 4-seat ride via South Station.

I'm always the guy in the group or family who thinks/says "how can we do this trip by transit?" but I truly despair of finding a way to make a family trip to the Aquarium work without a car, particularly with aquarium-aged kids.

Our solution was that we only did Aquarium trips first thing on summer Sundays (parking at meters in the FiDi) or timed to take one of about 6 spots that ban parking at AM rush hour but become available post-rush.

The Aquarium, like MGH and the Airport, is another big Boston institution that would be well served by a Red-Blue connector, but that Boston City can't figure out how to use a little $ and TIF to tip improvements into reality.

I think the Aquarium also has a "think blue" problem: they don't want to admit that they're a rah-rah save-the-planet / save-the-seas eco-activists who happen to have chosen a "1960s" location that is more car-dependent than Lego Discovery Center or the Museum of Science or MFA. Rather than admit that they have a car-addiction problem or a City-passivity problem, they'd rather have us believe they have a big, bad, greedy developer problem.

 

[GW]

The problem is that the Blue Line @ Aquarium's connectivity stinks from North, South, and West, leaving only East Boston and Revere.

Other garages are either crazy expensive or too far or both.

Gov Center is closed. State is awful. Blue@RedMGH never happened. The walk from bus/rail at Haymarket is no picnic, and a trip via commuter rail is a guaranteed-awful 3-seat ride via North Station or Back Bay and hellish 4-seat ride via South Station.

I'm always the guy in the group or family who thinks/says "how can we do this trip by transit?" but I truly despair of finding a way to make a family trip to the Aquarium work without a car, particularly with aquarium-aged kids.

Our solution was that we only did Aquarium trips first thing on summer Sundays (parking at meters in the FiDi) or timed to take one of about 6 spots that ban parking at AM rush hour but become available post-rush.

The Aquarium, like MGH and the Airport, is another big Boston institution that would be well served by a Red-Blue connector, but that Boston City can't figure out how to use a little $ and TIF to tip improvements into reality.

I think the Aquarium also has a "think blue" problem: they don't want to admit that they're a rah-rah save-the-planet / save-the-seas eco-activists who happen to have chosen a "1960s" location that is more car-dependent than Lego Discovery Center or the Museum of Science or MFA. Rather than admit that they have a car-addiction problem or a City-passivity problem, they'd rather have us believe they have a big, bad, greedy developer problem.

Great post, man.

 

[fattony]

The problem is that the Blue Line @ Aquarium's connectivity stinks from North, South, and West, leaving only East Boston and Revere.

Other garages are either crazy expensive or too far or both.

Gov Center is closed. State is awful. Blue@RedMGH never happened. The walk from bus/rail at Haymarket is no picnic, and a trip via commuter rail is a guaranteed-awful 3-seat ride via North Station or Back Bay and hellish 4-seat ride via South Station.

I'm always the guy in the group or family who thinks/says "how can we do this trip by transit?" but I truly despair of finding a way to make a family trip to the Aquarium work without a car, particularly with aquarium-aged kids.

Our solution was that we only did Aquarium trips first thing on summer Sundays (parking at meters in the FiDi) or timed to take one of about 6 spots that ban parking at AM rush hour but become available post-rush.

The Aquarium, like MGH and the Airport, is another big Boston institution that would be well served by a Red-Blue connector, but that Boston City can't figure out how to use a little $ and TIF to tip improvements into reality.

I think the Aquarium also has a "think blue" problem: they don't want to admit that they're a rah-rah save-the-planet / save-the-seas eco-activists who happen to have chosen a "1960s" location that is more car-dependent than Lego Discovery Center or the Museum of Science or MFA. Rather than admit that they have a car-addiction problem or a City-passivity problem, they'd rather have us believe they have a big, bad, greedy developer problem.

I don't know if I can agree with you on this one. Downtown is so ridiculously compact, the Aquarium is a short walk from every train line for anyone but the literally disabled. The Aquarium is a 12 minute walk (15 minutes tops for those short-legged kids) from South Station with only 2 significant intersections to cross at Congress and Seaport. The 10 minute stroll from Haymarket is an urban cakewalk. If your kids can't walk on nearly uninterrupted sidewalk for 15 minutes then they can't be downtown at all.

Since when has the standard for transit accessibility been that the train drop us right at the doorstep of our destination? Sure Red/Blue makes everything better, but it's absence hardly makes the Aquarium an auto-centric destination.

 

[SlothofDespond]

I think the Aquarium also has a "think blue" problem: they don't want to admit that they're a rah-rah save-the-planet / save-the-seas eco-activists who happen to have chosen a "1960s" location that is more car-dependent than Lego Discovery Center or the Museum of Science or MFA. Rather than admit that they have a car-addiction problem or a City-passivity problem, they'd rather have us believe they have a big, bad, greedy developer problem.

1960s is right, but not just in terms of location. I don't think modern rah-rah save-the-planet eco-activist types have much love for zoos.

 

[Lrfox]

The problem is that the Blue Line @ Aquarium's connectivity stinks from North, South, and West, leaving only East Boston and Revere.

Other garages are either crazy expensive or too far or both.

Gov Center is closed. State is awful. Blue@RedMGH never happened. The walk from bus/rail at Haymarket is no picnic, and a trip via commuter rail is a guaranteed-awful 3-seat ride via North Station or Back Bay and hellish 4-seat ride via South Station.

I'm always the guy in the group or family who thinks/says "how can we do this trip by transit?" but I truly despair of finding a way to make a family trip to the Aquarium work without a car, particularly with aquarium-aged kids.

Our solution was that we only did Aquarium trips first thing on summer Sundays (parking at meters in the FiDi) or timed to take one of about 6 spots that ban parking at AM rush hour but become available post-rush.

The Aquarium, like MGH and the Airport, is another big Boston institution that would be well served by a Red-Blue connector, but that Boston City can't figure out how to use a little $ and TIF to tip improvements into reality.

I think the Aquarium also has a "think blue" problem: they don't want to admit that they're a rah-rah save-the-planet / save-the-seas eco-activists who happen to have chosen a "1960s" location that is more car-dependent than Lego Discovery Center or the Museum of Science or MFA. Rather than admit that they have a car-addiction problem or a City-passivity problem, they'd rather have us believe they have a big, bad, greedy developer problem.

I had fun taking the kids on the commuter rail and walking along the RKG from South Station. I know that's not ideal in January, but it was pleasant in the summer. We got cookies and ice cream from Cookie Monstah and chowed down on the way. Certainly better than the transfers. I agree with the sentiment, however. It could be better connected. I'd really like a Boston version of San Francisco's F-Line running along the Greenway between N. and S. Station.

 

[Semass]

I think the Aquarium also has a "think blue" problem: they don't want to admit that they're a rah-rah save-the-planet / save-the-seas eco-activists who happen to have chosen a "1960s" location that is more car-dependent than Lego Discovery Center or the Museum of Science or MFA. Rather than admit that they have a car-addiction problem or a City-passivity problem, they'd rather have us believe they have a big, bad, greedy developer problem.

Possibly true but I think this is a much more pragmatic approach. They are likely in negotiations with Chiofaro and they are not getting the concessions/mitigation they want. So, they send out e-mail blasts to everybody on their lists to tell them that big bad developer is threatening the Aquarium and that everyone should put pressure on the BRA. Throw in a little "poor, pitiful us" being stepped on article and perhaps you improve your negotiating position.

IN addition, the Aquarium has a ton of office space/education space on the first floor of the garage. They are probably looking for concessions there too.

 

[Arlington]

If your kids can't walk on nearly uninterrupted sidewalk for 15 minutes then they can't be downtown at all.

That's a fine position for you to take (and I agree) but it is not a position the Aquarium (or any "family" venue) can afford to take, particularly because competing "family" destinations make no such demand.

That kids won't walk for more than from the farthest spot at "the mall" is life-with-kids as lived in America. It is why families with walking-age kids move out of the city and don't visit walk-intensive things again until [ALL] their kids are 13. The Aquarium is sunk if it's market position is "you'll walk 30 minutes and like it" It makes the Aquarium's addressable market half the size of any easily-accessible competitors to rule out the 3-to-13 demographic as soundly as a "must walk 15 minutes to arrive and leave" position would (and really, that's just from South Station, access from north of the Charles is worse still)

The reality is that adding 30 minutes (to/from) of pre-teen kid-dragging is a deal-breaker (vs, say, letting the kids fall asleep in the car to or from) and the Aquarium knows it and every parent whose ever attempted it by transit knows it.

I had fun taking the kids on the commuter rail and walking along the RKG from South Station. I know that's not ideal in January, but it was pleasant in the summer. We got cookies and ice cream from Cookie Monstah and chowed down on the way. Certainly better than the transfers. I agree with the sentiment, however. It could be better connected. I'd really like a Boston version of San Francisco's F-Line running along the Greenway between N. and S. Station.

When weather conditions are absolutely perfect the walk can be "a feature"--but the Aquarium can't sell annual memberships on that basis. "Accessibility" for kids stops at about 0.4 mile and 10 minutes, ideally line-of-sight (aka the walk from South Station to the Children's Museum).

The other reality is that these "family" venues (Children's Museum, MOS, Lego) sell lucrative annual memberships as "rainy day" and "snow day" and "school break" venues (at which times, they're packed), at which times they need to offer car access or transit access that offers an absolute minimum of climate-exposed walking as possible.

1960s is right, but not just in terms of location. I don't think modern rah-rah save-the-planet eco-activist types have much love for zoos.

The aquarium is pretty in-your-face about climate change hurting the seas first, and wants to challenge visitors about every aspect of their eco-lifestyle--except for how you got to the aquarium today.

 

[stellarfun]

Back in June, we were told that Chiofaro was busy seeing what he could build under the then newly-issued city's guidelines for the site. Uncharacteristically for Chiofaro, there has been silence ever since.

The Aquarium's consultant's study antedates the city's guidelines, as the consultant didn't study the effects of less gsf for the site. Thus, this seems like something the Aquarium was sitting on for months, and rather than have it collect more dust on the shelf, it is now tossing it out there.

By doing that, this suggests to me that Chiofaro isn't moving forward on development of the site anytime soon, perhaps not until the Harbor Towers easement with respect to garage parking spaces comes to its end date, five or six years from now IIRC.

I'd put the odds at better than 50-50 that Chiofaro never develops the site at all. This development cycle seems likely to pass him by.
_______________________________________
In looking at Google maps, the map has northbound 95 passing under a corner of the site. If this is true, this would complicate his original plan to bury the garage.

 

[dshoost88]

I attended one of these Waterfront meetings about the redevelopment of the waterfront around the Aquarium, and apparently ruffled some feathers when I brought up the parking situation with Chiofaro's garage. I noted that the price to park for 2 hours or more at the Aquarium garage is something like $35, and that the roundtrip cost to Uber or Lyft from outside the city to the aquarium is roughly the same.

I also noted that it's not the only public garage in the neighborhood; Post Office Square Garage is a 5-7 minute walk away from the Aquarium, and the weekend rate is an incredibly low $9!!! If most people visit the Aquarium on the weekends (I'd guess 80% or more of visitors), it makes sense for visitors to use the garage with ample space typically used by weekday commuters.

An Aquarium rep at the meeting I attended said the majority of their visitors are families with strollers and young children who depend on a close walk to the Aquarium "because they will never walk further to reach the venue." To that, I call bull sh*t. Any family that's driven to Disney World and walked to/around one of its parks can attest that a measly 7-minute walk is manageable. And for $26 less to park, any sensible parent would make that choice if they knew the option existed.

 

[Equilibria]

The problem is that the Blue Line @ Aquarium's connectivity stinks from North, South, and West, leaving only East Boston and Revere.

Other garages are either crazy expensive or too far or both.

Gov Center is closed. State is awful. Blue@RedMGH never happened. The walk from bus/rail at Haymarket is no picnic, and a trip via commuter rail is a guaranteed-awful 3-seat ride via North Station or Back Bay and hellish 4-seat ride via South Station..

Well, Government Center is closed for 5 more months. State being awful doesn't matter unless you're too nervous to shepherd children through it. Not having a Red Line connection (or much accessibility, really) sucks, though.

I went to the Aquarium plenty as a kid - rode the Green from Newton and transferred at GC. If they want better accessibility than that, they should relocate or start advocating for F-Line's Red Line/NSRL idea. If they want better accessibility by car, put it in Salem or something. Accessibility by car and amount of available parking are not valid concerns when you locate on the Shawmut Peninsula.

 

[Arlington]

An Aquarium rep at the meeting I attended said the majority of their visitors are families with strollers and young children who depend on a close walk to the Aquarium "because they will never walk further to reach the venue." To that, I call bull sh*t. Any family that's driven to Disney World and walked to/around one of its parks can attest that a measly 7-minute walk is manageable. And for $26 less to park, any sensible parent would make that choice if they knew the option existed.

The Aquarium rep doubtless has member survey info to back up her position, along the lines of "why did you buy a membership" and "why did you drop your membership."

Disney has a once-a-year/lifetime-of-memories business model and $100/person-day admission price. Even Six Flags (which imposes either a long walk or a shuttle ride) is still a "stay all day" thing.

The Aquarium has an annual membership/half-day-with-IMAX "school-day-or-less" model (there is not much more than 2-3 hours to do in such a small building for Annual Members) The tolerance for walking (from transit or car)--and burning 30 minutes doing so-- is just not there for Annual Members who really are replacing a Mall-and-movie trip. Not from the kids, not versus the length of visit.

If they want better accessibility by car, put it in Salem or something. Accessibility by car and amount of available parking are not valid concerns when you locate on the Shawmut Peninsula.

The reality is, nobody saw this coming 53 years ago when they picked the site (c. 1962) parking was cheap, roads were uncongested, and Harbor Towers was affordable housing. They should have bought the Garage. They didn't. They are screwed because their clientele loves cars and they aren't free to admit it and don't have a secure source of parking and don't have a particularly good transit access (MOS has both at just 0.2mi from Science Park and a directly attached garage.)