City Hall Discussion - Redevelopment - Preservation - Relocation

I'll be honest, I think all of those proposals are pretty bad and would only continue the tradition of building grand modern crap in Boston.
 
^^ A few of them are horrible but a few have merit. At least in part.

I'm coming around to the idea that Modern buildings deserve some level of protection and preservation.

The good thing about Modern buildings is that they are mostly constructed with off the shelf parts and consist mainly of basic shapes, so preservation methods are not too expensive because the materials used are still in great supply and no special craftsman skills are necessary to do the repairs.
There is the added bonus that most Modern building were built with the expectations of change so they are all somewhat flexible in design as long as the 'spirit' of the building remains intact.

The bad news is often that very spirit tends to be anti-urban. A lot of (most? all?) Modern buildings are designed as monuments to be viewed from afar. If you crowd them in with closely surrounding buildings or draw people to their edge with street level shops and such, you risk losing that monumentality.

It is a delicate balance. Give a talented enough architect enough time and money they can probably figure it out.
 
statler said:
For those who couldn't be bothered to click on the links here is a small glimpse of what you can find in there:

1600933838_0fcc422076_o.jpg
Click to expand...

I would much rather have what's already in place than this model...it's hideous in my opinion and destroys a bunch of beautiful historic buildings like Union Oyster House and all the bars on that street like the Purple Shamrock. It's ironic that their "solution" to Government Center, which is plagued with useless open space, is to knock down historical buildings and build skyscrapers with lots of open space at the bottom...has the whole world gone insane?! This is spreading the virus, not curing it! How about doing something like creating a street cutting right through Gov. Plaza and having dense, 6-8 story buildings lining either sides to make a faux, but attractive recreation of Scollay Square?

I don't think people will allow City Hall to be knocked down, but at least do something about what's surrounding it. When I went to the BRA the other day I was again shocked by how the inside is just as ugly as the outside....there aren't many windows, the hallways are very tight and have low ceilings, and there is concrete exposed everywhere. My mom kept asking me "What is wrong with this building? It's so dark and depressing." My vote would be to raze the entire area but that's probably too much to ask.
 
I don't think that demolishing city hall or the plaza would be a good idea. Many of the world's greatest cities have huge empty plazas which are monuments in their own rite: Tiananmen Square in Beijing, Red Square in Moscow, Place de la Concorde in Paris, Alexanderplatz in Berlin,Plaza de la Constituci?n in Mexico City, Washington Square Park in NYC, St. Peter's Square in Rome. Its obviously important for a world class city to have one. Also I think Architecturally speaking, City Hall itself is one of the most famous and defining pieces of brutalist architecture. Whether you love it or hate it(I think its ugly personally) you must at least understand that having it in Boston helps keep us on the map culturally.
If they get rid of the plaza there's no way they'll ever be able to obtain that much land again.
 
You are missing something that makes all those places popular, that being a sense of humanity and scale. Gov't Center sorely lacks both, it is just a wind swept expanse of nothingness.

Also, have you ever been to Washington Sq? It is NOT like all those others.
 
^^ The question is, can those flaws be fixed while leaving the building largely intact, or do you think the whole area needs to go under the bulldozer again?
 
Everyone wants some sort of new urbanist development in the plaza, but I doubt that is possible so long as the feds are there (as seen in the article in the other thread).

Also, the fact that Menino wants to sell the plaza as one chunk tells me we are going to end up with a bad redevelopment, whatever comes down the line. The best option would be to come up with a plan before selling the plaza, so that we don't get a Seaport proposal. That means, for example 1) determining the status of city hall 2) laying out any new streets, and the relation with the feds and 3) preferably (IMO) breaking up the plaza into parcels and selling those individually (to create a diversity of use). For example, by breaking up the parcels, that could possibly allow Suffolk to concentrate on helping redevelop the area (whereas I doubt they can afford the 600m cost of the entirety).
 
statler said:
^^ A few of them are horrible but a few have merit. At least in part.

I'm coming around to the idea that Modern buildings deserve some level of protection and preservation.

The good thing about Modern buildings is that they are mostly constructed with off the shelf parts and consist mainly of basic shapes, so preservation methods are not too expensive because the materials used are still in great supply and no special craftsman skills are necessary to do the repairs.
There is the added bonus that most Modern building were built with the expectations of change so they are all somewhat flexible in design as long as the 'spirit' of the building remains intact.

The bad news is often that very spirit tends to be anti-urban. A lot of (most? all?) Modern buildings are designed as monuments to be viewed from afar. If you crowd them in with closely surrounding buildings or draw people to their edge with street level shops and such, you risk losing that monumentality.

It is a delicate balance. Give a talented enough architect enough time and money they can probably figure it out.
Click to expand...


I'd say the "kuo.chaouni with uenal karamuk" goes in the "has merit" column. Simple, but the removal of the brick wall does wonders for the civic viability of the building, imho.
 
singbat said:
I'd say the "kuo.chaouni with uenal karamuk" goes in the "has merit" column.
Click to expand...

I like that one as well. It solves the permeability problem very simply, and gives us a better look at the building's muscularity. I like the Moskow proposal as well, but it needs to be fleshed out more. Most of 'em are smoking too much Rem Koolhaas.

Statler -- Why did'ja post the silly SimCity-looking proposal? The only cool things about it are the green roof on City Hall and the removal of Marketplace Center.
 
I don't know, I guess I thought it was the most eye-catching.

I like the premise behind the proposal, if not the particulars. The plaza needs to be more closed in, more like European plazas. That proposal was a step in the right direction.

The worst proposal was H?weler + Yoon. Wrap the whole building in a green tarp? Brilliant. :roll: Christo would be proud.

Here are some photos from the kuo.chaouni design:

1634197058_33ebf129cf_o.jpg

I think the brick benchs are poor but the rest is ok.

1634197090_fab01e4877_o.jpg

Is that supposed to be red carpet? Paint?

kuo.chaouni with uenal karamuk
City Hall?s main problems are not only its introversion but also the lack of functional relationships to its outdoor spaces. Our intentions are to redress this shortfall while considering the current context of an electronically bound and politically disengaged society. These new exigencies require a radical redefinition of City Hall?s civic role and demand an intensive physical forum that engages the city as public space.
We propose to remove the existing masonry plinth, and introduce in its place two surfaces: one, an extension of the Plaza to Congress Street as a public living room with an auditorium that serves as a physical and functional link; and the other an inner oasis for the employees of City Hall that integrates a cafeteria and a daycare center with a shared courtyard. Our scheme clarifies the initial ambitions for the site, opening the building to the city and offering a public ground for both civic and leisure activities.
Click to expand...

Does anybody know how to pull the rest of the graphics off a .pdf? I can get the photos and the text but the drawings are sticky.
 
^^Judging from that design, I have to say City Hall will continue to be empty and look like a fortress. So they added glass on the bottom of the building and some weird light, brick chairs and oversize sunflowers. THose aren't going to make it any better. Those table with the umbrellas are going to be blown away on a windy day. If this is what they got then it is city hall is hopeless.
 
^^ None of these are actual proposals.

The BSA asked "six teams of young designers to consider the building?s sins and to imagine ways in which City Hall could be modified, both to correct its failures and to address the changes in its social, political, and physical context."
They are just theoretical concepts.

Plus the photos don't show the whole concept.

Here are some of the diagrams:
1653920386_ace761d7a7_o.jpg

1653053087_82c6c899ea_o.jpg

You can check out the original .pdf here.

I don't think any of these proposals are perfect. But the each show something that would improve City Hall.
In the hands of the correct architect they might just get it right.
 
Like the idea of the integral stairway to Fanuil Hall

Most of the of those designs are totally impractical for many reasons including the modern issues of security

However, the idea of demolishing the massive brick blockhouse is good. It could be made better by "floating the upper concrete stories above a large glassed atrium with embedded steps down to Faneuil Hall at Congress Street- level.

The embedded steps would be broad and monumental with banks of escalators on either side and with the main lobby for City Hall being at a subterranean mezzanine level that would also connect to both the Orange Line at State and the Blue Green line at Government Center

Lot's of glass would make the lobby level well-lit even in the dead of winter but snow-free and warm

Westy
 
City Hall does not need "security". City Hall needs to be fully open to the public. Look across the river to Cambridge.
 
Re: Menino Proposes Selling City Hall

Boston Herald - March 12
Flaherty fights City Hall
Opposes a move to waterfront
By Scott Van Voorhis | Wednesday, March 12, 2008 |

City Councilor Michael Flaherty is taking aim at one of Mayor Thomas M. Menino?s grandest development proposals, moving City Hall.

Widely seen a potential mayoral challenger, Flaherty said yesterday he plans to hold hearings this spring on Menino?s plan to build a new municipal headquarters on South Boston?s waterfront.

Behind his decision to challenge the mayor on this issue is a groundswell of opposition among city residents to moving Boston?s government headquarters to a remote and inaccessible location, Flaherty contends.

?What I have been hearing loud and clear at people?s kitchen tables across the city is that people do not want their City Hall moved to an inaccessible South Boston waterfront location,? said Flaherty.

Flaherty?s comments come as Menino, after a long silence on the issue, told business leaders last week he is moving forward with plans for a new city headquarters.

Along with building a new City Hall on the harbor, Menino?s plan calls for selling off the hulking, 1960s-era concrete fortress that currently houses city government.

The proposal will save city residents money, argued Dot Joyce, the mayor?s spokeswoman. The amount earned through the sale of the valuable Government Center lot where City Hall currently stands is expected to pay for a new municipal headquarters, and then some, she said. And the Government Center site will come back on the tax rolls for the first timn in decades.

?The mayor is looking at the popularity of reducing the burden on taxpayers for running the city of Boston,? she said.

But Flaherty questioned the planning behind the effort, noting that city officials spent millions on waterfront plans over the last several years that had no mention of a new, waterfront City Hall.

?To move City Hall through a speech is by no means a community planning process,? he said.
Article URL: http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1079713
Click to expand...
 
Re: Menino Proposes Selling City Hall

why dont they just take a corner, build it up more to fit in a confined space, and sell the rest of that horrible, horrible plaza. I mean the building sucks, but my god, the plaza... who thought that was gonna work? what's up with the 4 steps, stop, 10 feet of brick, 4 steps, stop. etc... why? who wants to walk up stairs like that and what could you possibly put on those 10 foot sections. Its like they needed to fill space... sorry I was just reminded of that since I usually don't walk on that side.
 
Re: Menino Proposes Selling City Hall

It's called "looks good on paper".
 
Re: Menino Proposes Selling City Hall

statler said:
Does anybody know how to pull the rest of the graphics off a .pdf? I can get the photos and the text but the drawings are sticky.
Click to expand...

The way I go is to use a screen capture tool, like SnagIt, where you frame whatever you want to lift from a pdf or flash file, and save it as a jpg. Then with the jpg in hand, just go the usual route of imageshack or photobucket. Snagit is trialware, but I'm still using an old version for image capture. (if you want videocapture, you probably should go with the newer releases.

http://www.download.com/SnagIt/3000-2192_4-10004813.html

http://www.oldapps.com/SnagIT.php
 
Re: Menino Proposes Selling City Hall

Suffolk 83 said:
why dont they just take a corner, build it up more to fit in a confined space, and sell the rest of that horrible, horrible plaza. I mean the building sucks, but my god, the plaza... who thought that was gonna work? what's up with the 4 steps, stop, 10 feet of brick, 4 steps, stop. etc... why? who wants to walk up stairs like that and what could you possibly put on those 10 foot sections. Its like they needed to fill space... sorry I was just reminded of that since I usually don't walk on that side.
Click to expand...

The problem with just selling part of the plaza (which I would completely support) is that the federal government (the abutting JFK building) has security concerns with whatever goes on in the plaza.

Any chance of building on CHP or making renovations to it is dependent upon getting federal government office out of the JFK building. My choice would be to engineer a land swap between the city and the Fed: in exchange for the JFK building and that land, the city will give the Fed Menino's new City Hall plot in the Seaport. The City could then sell the JFK buildings and part of CHP to developers and use the $$ to reimburse the federal agencies for their building costs on the waterfront. City Hall would get space to expand and renovate, the unsightly JFK buildings could be razed and replaced with something decent, Hanover Street could be re-opened and CHP can be renovated to give it both purpose and life.

With respect to the plaza itself, I have always hated the steps and open space configurations. It always made me think of scenes from that Planet of the Apes movie where the slave/apes finally rise up, like I expect 100 gorillas to come loping along waving sticks at any moment.

What I also dislike about the open plaza is that the open parts aren't even level. Huge humps and dips and rolls make the space even uglier and more unkempt looking.
 
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