Crazy Transit Pitches

[tangent]

Because the question was about GLX, not Commuter Rail resumption.

Oh, I just disregarded that as even a remote possibility. GLX won't crossing the river. But I think DMUs open up the possibility restoring a few branches along the commuter rail lines.

 

[Arlington]

Another sexy idea: taking the Lowell Line and creating a new ROW above I-93, passing through the circle near Medford Sq, than through the Utility ROW the begins at the interchange with Route 128, reconnecting with the old line at Anderson. This would free up the old lowell/haverhill routes for service to Woburn on the green and express trains to Reading on the orange line.

The real issue here is constructing over the Fells.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zHBKbWS6THfI.kwC9oMTw70kQ

I get this is a "crazy" transit pitch, and I understand that the goal is to put "express" exurban service on 93 as a mostly "bypass" routing.

I see that this would allow more "infill" around the existing line, assuming the locals let you bring the GLX to Winchester Center (I'm unclear on how this'd help the Orange since Melrose hates it so)

But I'd say:

- The grades over the fells are just too daunting for rail. The old interurban line came up through W. Med. Sq (via Playstead) and did a big loop to get what were still steep grades. The I-93 ROW will always need rubber tires to be climbed.

- What I-93 Needs is an HOV lane. Anyplace you can find room for rail, would be better devoted to a 2-lane rush-reversable HOV/Variable tolled lanes that feed into the existing (or improved) HOV lane.

- The GLX can get to Winchester center on mostly the existing 4-track-wide ROW (but probably won't ever get beyond MVP/Rt16/UHaul, partly due to NIMBYs and partly the need for an expensive bridge over the Mystic)

- DMU technology and a 3-track tunnel through W.Med Sq (it is a freight clearance route and so can't do high platforms without a wide-load bypass) will get you high platform DMUs to places like Brickbottom & Tufts and W. Med SQ, and there it stops, in Zone 1A. A nice "Fairmonting". Or put the high platforms south/inboard of Rt 60 and save a lot of CR/gates-down congestion.

 

[tangent]

Who does this benefit and by how much?

I think the answer is that it would benefit Medford Center and allow for some additional development around Montvale Ave. (The old Jello plant is shutting down soon, so that would be a prime redevelopment opportunity in close proximity.) The other stations on that map don't seem to be really worth putting in an entirely new line regardless of the technical challenges.

 

[Arlington]

I think the answer is that it would benefit Medford Center and allow for some additional development around Montvale Ave. (The old Jello plant is shutting down soon, so that would be a prime redevelopment opportunity in close proximity.) The other stations on that map don't seem to be really worth putting in an entirely new line regardless of the technical challenges.

If the MBTA were willing to run in the GLX in the median of Playstead, and if the DCR would let them follow the old interurban ROW (it is all still there through the Fells) It'd come out right at Jello (General Foods)

Poor Mystic Ave (MA 38). Something good needs to happen along Mystic Ave in the wastland between Century Bank and Medford Square (that only Century Bank has had the courage to build taller than 2 stories in)

There's plenty of linear ROW 'lost" in the "parkland" as Rt38 and I93 bracket Rt16. They should start with BRT somehow. It needs a total South Bay makeover.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

If Medford Center was such a destination then they would have preserved the spur off the Haverhill Line. The truth is once the GL opens to College Ave Medford Center becomes very close by bus. I've taken that bus from Davis and it's a long jog. But from College Ave station it will be much quicker. And once R16 station opens it becomes even closer; a new line from Arlington Center to Malden via R16 station and Medford Center would be all you'd need.

Medford Center doesn't have a lot of room to grow, compared to a place like Malden Center. So spending the money to extend the T to Medford Center seems like a waste of money that would be better spent on improving bus connections.

Additionally if your plan is to bring transit to Stoneham just build a station at Montvale Ave. Problem solved for service to both Woburn and Stoneham.

 

[Arlington]

Additionally if your plan is to bring transit to Stoneham just build a station at Montvale Ave. Problem solved for service to both Woburn and Stoneham.

This is an ideal infill (restoration?). Too reasonable for this thread ;-)

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Considering it's surrounded by a lake and wetlands it might be a crazy idea.

 

[cozzyd]

And no room for an oversized parking garage.

 

[tangent]

And no room for an oversized parking garage.

Yes, not quite ideal. But there could be room for a station with a one or two takings/purchase, But it is still a bit of a long walk to the existing commercial, retail and restaurants which are closer to rt93. Worth keeping in the back of the mind for an infill depending how things turn out in the next 15 years.

But before that there is much more potential still to be had between Anderson and Mishawum before even remotely considering Montvale. A Garage, bridge and some sort of transit oriented development immediately around Anderson Station would be the not so crazy and somewhat obvious next step.

 

[bigeman312]

If we're talking about Commuter Rail, Woburn shouldn't have more than 2 stations (a Park & Ride that has easy access to Route 128 and/or I-93, as well as a "town center" station, ideally). Otherwise, these stops are really slowing overall travel time to serve a relatively small area (a suburb of 13 square miles). I understand closing a station in one location, in favor of a station in a better location.

If we are talking about -MU (DMU or EMU), Woburn still isn't dense enough (3,000/square mile) for more than two stations. Any additional infill beyond this should only be constructed in addition to very large-scale TOD - of which there is clearly more demand elsewhere.

Stoneham has fewer people, and a smaller area than Woburn. In an ideal world, if there were an active Right-of-Way running through town, I could also see up to two Commuter Rail and/or -MU stations in Stoneham (again, a Park & Ride that has easy access to I-93, as well as a "town center" station, ideally). This, even in the craziest of pitches, would represent full build.

Sorry for being semi-reasonable in the Crazy Transit Pitch thread.

EDIT: I just want to add that in a place like Woburn, that is already well-served by rail, according to number of stations relative to its size, density, and importance, frequency of service is far more important than additional stations.

 

[George_Apley]

Oh, I just disregarded that as even a remote possibility. GLX won't crossing the river. But I think DMUs open up the possibility restoring a few branches along the commuter rail lines.

The issue comes when the link opens up and the line gets clogged with traffic. The New Hampshire Main line can handle adding additional tracks for passing. If that ends up being preferable to allow locals and expresses that way, then great. Otherwise the inside-128 stops stops need to be flipped to rapid transit somehow.

If we're talking about Commuter Rail, Woburn shouldn't have more than 2 stations (a Park & Ride that has easy access to Route 128 and/or I-93, as well as a "town center" station, ideally). Otherwise, these stops are really slowing overall travel time to serve a relatively small area (a suburb of 13 square miles). I understand closing a station in one location, in favor of a station in a better location.

If we are talking about -MU (DMU or EMU), Woburn still isn't dense enough (3,000/square mile) for more than two stations. Any additional infill beyond this should only be constructed in addition to very large-scale TOD - of which there is clearly more demand elsewhere.

Stoneham has fewer people, and a smaller area than Woburn. In an ideal world, if there were an active Right-of-Way running through town, I could also see up to two Commuter Rail and/or -MU stations in Stoneham (again, a Park & Ride that has easy access to I-93, as well as a "town center" station, ideally). This, even in the craziest of pitches, would represent full build.

Sorry for being semi-reasonable in the Crazy Transit Pitch thread.

EDIT: I just want to add that in a place like Woburn, that is already well-served by rail, according to number of stations relative to its size, density, and importance, frequency of service is far more important than additional stations.

If we're talking xMU service in Woburn, then there should be a stop at Montvale Ave; connect to the 354 bus or consider axing the 354 in favor of adding a Woburn Ctr to Stoneham Ctr shuttle that feeds the train station. I'd expect that most 354 riders would be happier taking a 2-seat ride that avoids I-93 rather than the existing conditions.

Axe Mishawum. It's a useless station.

Anderson is the big ticket. Lots of space for TOD. Anderson has potential to actually live up to its name as a "regional transportation center". Once the link is built and xMUs are operating on several lines, Anderson will probably be the to Boston that express trains take. Haverhill and Lowell/Nashua Commuter Rails, Amtraks to Maine, and potentially New Hampshire Commuter Rails to Manchester/Concord and Portsmouth. Tons of untapped potential for smart growth around Anderson.

 

[FK4]

If Medford Center was such a destination then they would have preserved the spur off the Haverhill Line. The truth is once the GL opens to College Ave Medford Center becomes very close by bus. I've taken that bus from Davis and it's a long jog. But from College Ave station it will be much quicker. And once R16 station opens it becomes even closer; a new line from Arlington Center to Malden via R16 station and Medford Center would be all you'd need.

Medford Center doesn't have a lot of room to grow, compared to a place like Malden Center. So spending the money to extend the T to Medford Center seems like a waste of money that would be better spent on improving bus connections.

the only reason i could see medford ctr being rail-worthy is the vast amount of vacant land across the mystic next to rt 38 - you could build a whole north point type development here, do the same all along the north side of the mystic across from assemnbly square and have some sort of line servicing this area to basically run east west between the GLX and the Orange Line...

so, this is completely crazy and will never happen but fuck it, what about a cut and cover under college ave, to medford ctr, thence underground up to the remains of the rail spur to connect to the orange (and maybe hitting the casino) - or, alternatively, continuing underground below rt 60 to malden.

 

[bigeman312]

If we're talking xMU service in Woburn, then there should be a stop at Montvale Ave; connect to the 354 bus or consider axing the 354 in favor of adding a Woburn Ctr to Stoneham Ctr shuttle that feeds the train station. I'd expect that most 354 riders would be happier taking a 2-seat ride that avoids I-93 rather than the existing conditions.

Axe Mishawum. It's a useless station.

Anderson is the big ticket. Lots of space for TOD. Anderson has potential to actually live up to its name as a "regional transportation center". Once the link is built and xMUs are operating on several lines, Anderson will probably be the to Boston that express trains take. Haverhill and Lowell/Nashua Commuter Rails, Amtraks to Maine, and potentially New Hampshire Commuter Rails to Manchester/Concord and Portsmouth. Tons of untapped potential for smart growth around Anderson.

Yes. This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is what full build looks like.

 

[davem]

The issue comes when the link opens up and the line gets clogged with traffic. The New Hampshire Main line can handle adding additional tracks for passing. If that ends up being preferable to allow locals and expresses that way, then great. Otherwise the inside-128 stops stops need to be flipped to rapid transit somehow.

I think if the link opens your going to see a push for the eastern route to be reopened, at least to Portsmouth. Maine and Amtrak are going to think about electrifying to Portland, and it's a lot straighter than the western route and avoids a nice chunk of the congestion inside 495. Once you get to Portsmouth it's an issue, since 236 was built on the old ROW, but there is an arrow straight power line reservation that parallels the old route, and the Portsmouth-Dover line could also be recreated in the median of 16.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

the only reason i could see medford ctr being rail-worthy is the vast amount of vacant land across the mystic next to rt 38 - you could build a whole north point type development here, do the same all along the north side of the mystic across from assemnbly square and have some sort of line servicing this area to basically run east west between the GLX and the Orange Line...

so, this is completely crazy and will never happen but fuck it, what about a cut and cover under college ave, to medford ctr, thence underground up to the remains of the rail spur to connect to the orange (and maybe hitting the casino) - or, alternatively, continuing underground below rt 60 to malden.

Still not worth it. Just improve bus service and you'll be fine. The area you are proposing tunneling under is a quiet residential neighborhood and would flip out over a tunnel.

Rt 38 could be a good place for BRT from Sullivan Sq or even Haymarket but you'd have to have a development oriented mayor wanting to redevelop Rt38 into a higher density corridor. As it is BRT wouldn't even work there. Someone posted that all you would need is to improve the HOV lane on 93 and I think that would be perfect for Medford. If I worked in the city and lived in Medford Center and i knew I could get an express bus from Haymarket to home I'd hop on that over the T every day of the week.

 

[George_Apley]

I think if the link opens your going to see a push for the eastern route to be reopened, at least to Portsmouth. Maine and Amtrak are going to think about electrifying to Portland, and it's a lot straighter than the western route and avoids a nice chunk of the congestion inside 495. Once you get to Portsmouth it's an issue, since 236 was built on the old ROW, but there is an arrow straight power line reservation that parallels the old route, and the Portsmouth-Dover line could also be recreated in the median of 16.

Is Newburyport an issue as well? Currently the Newburyport line ends outside of the town center [due to community opposition to a downtown stop & parking needs]. I think the ROW is trailed through the center. Also a new draw would need to be built across the mouth of the Merrimack.

 

[The EGE]

You'd need to single track through Newburyport to keep the trail and thus keep the locals happy, but that's not an absolute killer. The bridge and north run through a whole lot of nothing; double-tracking much of that (even keeping the existing trail there) wouldn't be difficult.

Perhaps tie the restoration in with trailing the old Newburyport & City RR; that would vastly improve ped/bike access from a huge swath of residential areas and be a net plus for Newburyport.

 

[Downburst]

Is Newburyport an issue as well? Currently the Newburyport line ends outside of the town center [due to community opposition to a downtown stop & parking needs]. I think the ROW is trailed through the center. Also a new draw would need to be built across the mouth of the Merrimack.

Yeah, it's trailed all the way to the Merrimack. There's enough space for at least a single track, I doubt you'd get more than that out of the city. The trail itself is actually quite well-used.

I'm surprised the city didn't support a stop closer to downtown (although the current stop is fairly close already) because the ROW is still a five/ten minute walk outside of the main part of the downtown area.

The ROW across the river in Salisbury is also trailed but I see less opposition towards that portion- less use/abutters are almost entirely commercial entities.

Source: Grew up in Newburyport

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Continuing from the conversation in the Red/Blue thread I sketched out some possible Blue Line West routes.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.365...=!4m2!6m1!1sz-XOBJKktHNs.k7_rfjEEWk5I!5m1!1e2

(If this map doesn't load for people tell me and I'll make it an image)

There are three possible routes. All start at Bowdoin and head to Charles/MGH, run under the Charles River to Binney St.

- The northern route runs west from Binney St to Central Sq under Broadway and Prospect St. After Central it travels under Western Ave straight across Allston to Arsenal St in Watertown. From here it's a straight shot under Arsenal to Watertown Center.

- The middle route runs to Central Sq as described above but then runs under River St and then Cambridge St to Union Sq in Allston Center. From here it runs west under North Beacon St to the Arsenal Mall and on to Watertown Center via Arsenal St.

- The southern route would run along Vassar St after Binney and along the Grand Junction to West Station. After West it would run under Lincoln St along the Pike to the Arsenal Mall and on to Watertown Center.

Each route has major pros and cons. The first two would run through the densest residential areas and connect to the Red Line at Central which would convert much of the bus traffic coming from Watertown and Allston. These routes would also require the most tunneling and be much more expensive.

The Grand Junction route would be cheaper as it could run above ground after Mass Ave to West Station. While it wouldn't connect with the Red Line until Charles/MGH it would better distribute passengers around Kendall Sq. It would serve more job/tech/education centers then the two other routes which would make it more useful for commuters coming from Boston or Logan and transferring to the Blue Line.

While the Western Ave route would certainly help the Harvard-Allston area grow and take many commuters off buses I think a route that runs more south could do the same (if extended to Watertown) while also taking pressure off the B and 57 bus.

 

[George_Apley]

^ link works, but the map's not public.