Crazy Transit Pitches

Can someone provide a price estimate if a mile of a tunnel of this design were to be constructed in Boston? I'm doing a little bit of transit design for Boston and I'm starting to look over the costs.
Maastricht-SS-11.png

Depends where. But generally you're talking Big Dig levels of cost as a floor.
 
Can someone provide a price estimate if a mile of a tunnel of this design were to be constructed in Boston? I'm doing a little bit of transit design for Boston and I'm starting to look over the costs.
Unfortunately, the only place place where such tunnels can be justified is in Bostons' core which is a bad place for earth tunnels (it is all mucky/fill) and so is going to be another slurry wall nightmare. Should any estimate of cost assume slurry wall (rather than cut-and-cover or sunken tube (submarine)?)
 
Unfortunately, the only place place where such tunnels can be justified is in Bostons' core which is a bad place for earth tunnels (it is all mucky/fill) and so is going to be another slurry wall nightmare. Should any estimate of cost assume slurry wall (rather than cut-and-cover or sunken tube (submarine)?)

I'd say so. Bedrock is what you need for "cheap"-er tunneling, and bedrock is just too far down to be tunnel accessible in the dense areas of Boston.
 
While I get it that it's expensive, the landfill and unknown stuff lurking beneath the surface didnt stop earlier tunnels, so why is it that in this forum it's labeled as so totally infeasible? Seems a little unrealistic - most of the Green and parts of the Orange and Blue go right under landfill - as does some of the Red... why cant we do it again?

Im speaking generally - there may or may not be routings for various proposals that are cheaper and would provide comparable service, but it just seems that the existence of landfill and old neighborhoods being a 100% preclusion to a tunnel is at times not reasonable... Thoughts?
 
While I get it that it's expensive, the landfill and unknown stuff lurking beneath the surface didnt stop earlier tunnels, so why is it that in this forum it's labeled as so totally infeasible? Seems a little unrealistic - most of the Green and parts of the Orange and Blue go right under landfill - as does some of the Red... why cant we do it again?

Im speaking generally - there may or may not be routings for various proposals that are cheaper and would provide comparable service, but it just seems that the existence of landfill and old neighborhoods being a 100% preclusion to a tunnel is at times not reasonable... Thoughts?

To be glib: entropy.

As time goes on the city gets more and more complicated, especially the substreet-scape. Buildings built a century ago are more settled on their pilings in the Back Bay and are easily disturbed (recall the Arlington station elevator debacle). Those mitigation costs are unexpected, unpredictable, and huge. Utilities have become much more complicated since the old subways were built. Some are unmapped. They're all expensive to move.

Additionally, any new subway (like a Mass Ave subway for example) would probably need to underpin other tunnels/stations as it heads cross-town. That means going deeper into the fill, supporting old tunnels and potentially impacting building foundations deeper.

It's not that it can't be done. Engineering-wise it's certainly possible to tunnel just about anywhere. But the costs incurred for the benefits achieved are really out of balance, and certainly no where in the realm of being possible given the MBTA's financial woes. When it does expand (as it needs to do) it will be along the path of least resistance. That means new tunneling is probably only going to happen sparingly, in "easy" areas.
 
What is the feasibility of tunneling in the deeper clay layer and how deep is it?

That just seems like it might be easier to do than tunneling through landfill.
 
You can theoretically deep bore through the clay. But that comes with its own geological challenges.

To save time (and since JeffDowntown and F-Line to Dudley have argued about this in the past), I'm going to repost something F-Line wrote up-thread.

F-Line to Dudley said:
It's not easy-scoop clay of uniform composition. It's a glacial debris field of of terrain scraped off the western hills...loose rubble with boulders and soils deposited from umpteen different locations. Filled on top by a layer of mudflat silt and a whole lot of human landfill. And lined with faults because all this fill has points of instability that can shift over time as debris settles. There's absolutely nothing homogenous about the ground composition, and nothing "native" or permanent to Boston like bedrock is native. What you get on one 100 ft. stretch of tunneling can be completely different from what you get on the next hundred feet, and how you have to mitigate the tunnel and surroundings can be different every few feet. It's not predictable or mappable until you're actively digging. This added billions to the Big Dig cost and prevented seamless underground boring there.

So, yes it's possible. And it might be less troublesome than trying to do shallower digs. But the whole problem with any kind of tunneling in the densest parts of Boston are the unknowns. The unknowns aren't discovered until work begins and budgets have been drawn up. Those unknowns are what drive up costs. They (among other things) drove up the Big Dig's costs. They drove up the Arlington station elevator costs. The anticipation of those costs killed the SLIII (for good reason).

DBM deep through the clay might be another option for tunneling. But you'd still need to be prepared for major cost overruns.
 
Here are some geological maps that can help you out citylover. I don't understand a lot of it, but maybe the link will give you some info on the clay.

Boston+Basin2.jpg


Dr. Jack Share said:
This schematic map illustrates the cross-sectional relationship of the Boston Basin (tan)
to the adjacent volcanic and metamorphic zones of Avalonia.
Modified from the Bedrock Geologic Map of Massachusetts, Department of the Interior,
United States Geological Survey, Goldsmith et al, 198

Boston+Basin.jpg


Dr. Jack Share said:
This map depicts the bedrock of the Boston Basin
and that of the neighboring volcanic and metamorphic zones of Avalonia.
Abbreviations for the Roxbury Conglomerate (Proterozoic Z to earliest Paleozoic) are colored tan:
PzZc, Cambridge Argillite; PzZrb, Melaphyre in Roxbury Conglomerate.
Modified from the Bedrock Geologic Map of Massachusetts, Department of the Interior,
United States Geological Survey, Goldsmith et al, 1983.

Link
 
You need to take a lot of the opinions expressed here with a huge grain of salt. They all reflect various different kinds of experience and knowledge. These warnings apply equally to my own comments.

You certainly don't need bedrock for tunneling. A tunnel is in many ways no different than a building, or certainly a basement, and we build many large buildings without bedrock. There can be issues with water but foundation pressure does not usually the governing design or economics. In truly poor soil conditions you can use piles, just like a building.

Slurry walls do not by themselves utterly change the economics of a tunnel. They are more expensive than unpinned cut and cover for sure. However, it's just another kind of cut and cover. But plenty of buildings, like Millennium, get built with slurry walls. It was a technique developed to be cheaper than excavation and temporary bracing where hydraulic pressures are high and so it is.

The geologic info posted here has very little to do with tunneling issues at all. It shows deep geologic faulting, not the surface geology where tunneling would take place. At best it informs various seismic risk factors and gives a broad historical context of the area's geology. Try things like this and this which are least representative of the surface geology. But are still more relevant to seismic hazard mapping than tunnel design. Or look at this very old MIT thesis which includes Cambridge, is written in clear language, is not proprietary, contains rough bedrock elevations from previous tunneling (sewers). Typically bedrock is 60 to 180' below grade which is not beyond design lengths of typical deep pile foundations.

Once and for all, we can tunnel through clay and other soft soils. It's not easy. There are examples of failure and escalating costs. But it is not beyond our skills. See for example this brochure from a Scandi tunneling consultancy (page 7). This publication has examples in urban areas and in soft soils. For example Malmo city twin bore 4.6km rail tunnels (pg 22) in hard limestone, but very inconsistent and therefore expensive. Marieholmstunnel, Stockholm, 600m twin tube with 3 lanes under a river in clay and sedimentation (expensive pg 27). There are many other examples.

The problems in Boston are economic and political. Mass transit lacks sufficient financial support. Desirable tunneling areas are not very economically dense. Like Harvard Ave or Mass Ave. But they do cross multiple political boundaries and have many abutters. Imagine a tunnel in Brookline a few abutting houses claiming the potential for settlement and damages, which there always is, could tie up a project for years in litigation. Then there are the unknowns like old sewers etc. There is also issues of access and constrained geometry, difficulty in using eminent domain, and limited public rights of way. However, look at London Crossrail as an example, far more unknown ground conditions, tons of abutters, historical structures and difficult soil conditions and water. However, the value of the land is much higher there and there are relatively few political entities (it still took 40 years to get started).

If Boston wants these sorts of projects it needs to develop urban planning that characterizes places like Longwood and Kendall as critical central nodes where high density and growth will be supported and driven by access to mass transit (like most successful urban areas around the world). And that surrounding areas will play a part in that density. And that regional economic resources (i.e. taxes) ill be used to pay for that transportation infrastructure. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out if this is possible.

In summation, the problem in Boston is a lack of political consensus underpinned by urban planning and appropriately tailored political entities that would require and therefore support these types of very expensive collective infrastructure projects. If so structured, the economics of such mass transit proposals are eminently feasible. Places like Stockholm, Madrid, Berlin, Zurich, Dublin are no larger economic entities than Boston. However, given all of the present political and economic structures with the MBTA and State and fractured towns such Crazy tunneling proposals are sadly economically infeasible.
 
^ Thanks for the better info. I'm not a geologist obviously.

paperless paul said:
The problems in Boston are economic and political. Mass transit lacks sufficient financial support. Desirable tunneling areas are not very economically dense. Like Harvard Ave or Mass Ave. But they do cross multiple political boundaries and have many abutters. Imagine a tunnel in Brookline a few abutting houses claiming the potential for settlement and damages, which there always is, could tie up a project for years in litigation. Then there are the unknowns like old sewers etc. There is also issues of access and constrained geometry, difficulty in using eminent domain, and limited public rights of way. However, look at London Crossrail as an example, far more unknown ground conditions, tons of abutters, historical structures and difficult soil conditions and water. However, the value of the land is much higher there and there are relatively few political entities (it still took 40 years to get started).

If Boston wants these sorts of projects it needs to develop urban planning that characterizes places like Longwood and Kendall as critical central nodes where high density and growth will be supported and driven by access to mass transit (like most successful urban areas around the world). And that surrounding areas will play a part in that density. And that regional economic resources (i.e. taxes) ill be used to pay for that transportation infrastructure. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out if this is possible.

In summation, the problem in Boston is a lack of political consensus underpinned by urban planning and appropriately tailored political entities that would require and therefore support these types of very expensive collective infrastructure projects. If so structured, the economics of such mass transit proposals are eminently feasible. Places like Stockholm, Madrid, Berlin, Zurich, Dublin are no larger economic entities than Boston. However, given all of the present political and economic structures with the MBTA and State and fractured towns such Crazy tunneling proposals are sadly economically infeasible.

I agree with all of this. The engineering is difficult but possible. The economics and politics are the main issue. That said, mitigation cost overflow is a real thing. Boston's geography is pretty significantly different than many other places. Maybe you think that's overblown, but it's caused problems in the past. Could very well be a matter of poor planning and management which, if improved, could be avoided. If that's the case, then it's still the politics that are the issue. Not just in Boston and Massachusetts, but across the US.
 
Well, as Seattle shows, this stuff can easily blow up in your face and make a huge multibillion dollar mess.

Also I think we discount surface transit a bit too much. Zurich voters made a conscious decision to focus on surface transit instead of building a subway. The T could do a lot to make surface transit more efficient, if the cities and towns would work together to make it happen.

Politics -- more difficult than engineering!
 
Zurich did vote down a U-Bahn system, but their S-Bahn is pretty impressive. But, yes, much more focus should be paid to enhancing our surface transit (dedicated lanes, POP, etc.).
 
The only two "safe" tunnel options in Boston are:
- Safe: Re-tunneling the NSRL's cleared-and-filled void made as part of the Big Dig
- Kinda Safe: Immersed Tube (how the Ted Williams was built) in the Harbor

Beyond that, unless it is for small stretches (like the Urban Ring proposes at tough intersections) it is all mystery and misery, and a little too crazy.
 
You can theoretically deep bore through the clay. But that comes with its own geological challenges.

To save time (and since JeffDowntown and F-Line to Dudley have argued about this in the past), I'm going to repost something F-Line wrote up-thread.



So, yes it's possible. And it might be less troublesome than trying to do shallower digs. But the whole problem with any kind of tunneling in the densest parts of Boston are the unknowns. The unknowns aren't discovered until work begins and budgets have been drawn up. Those unknowns are what drive up costs. They (among other things) drove up the Big Dig's costs. They drove up the Arlington station elevator costs. The anticipation of those costs killed the SLIII (for good reason).

DBM deep through the clay might be another option for tunneling. But you'd still need to be prepared for major cost overruns.

If the unknowns - IE the human-made crap, right? Wires, cables etc - are where the real costs are, then why is London, the largest ancient and undisturbed city in Europe, able to embark on massive tunnel projects? It must be more than just the power of semi-socialist govt...

Edit - just saw paperless' post. I suppose the united territory of London (and many other cities) is a major factor. If Boston was in a European country, much of what's inside 128 would definitely be incorporated into the city of Boston, which, with a centralized government, would lend itself significantly toward creating a unified political will toward transit projects. I just find it hard to buy the oft-quoted argument on this forum that the streets are too old to dig underneath them.
 
If the unknowns - IE the human-made crap, right? Wires, cables etc - are where the real costs are, then why is London, the largest ancient and undisturbed city in Europe, able to embark on massive tunnel projects? It must be more than just the power of semi-socialist govt...

Edit - just saw paperless' post. I suppose the united territory of London (and many other cities) is a major factor. If Boston was in a European country, much of what's inside 128 would definitely be incorporated into the city of Boston, which, with a centralized government, would lend itself significantly toward creating a unified political will toward transit projects. I just find it hard to buy the oft-quoted argument on this forum that the streets are too old to dig underneath them.

I don't know a ton about London's project. I assume it's using DBM like New York's 2nd Ave subway. Man made obstructions are more of a concern for cut-cover than they are a concern for DBM. Obstructions for DBM are more geological, though not immovable. I definitely see something to the argument though that Boston's geology is just fucking difficult. Compared to Manhattan certainly - which sits on a nice big slab of granite. I don't know about London's geology at all. At its core, Boston is a glacier-sanded island connected to land by a tiny isthmus. Most of the inhabited land around the core were tidal flats until the mid to late 19th century. It's not like a lot of other cities. Boring deeper down to the bedrock is possible, but you need running room to get a rail tunnel that deep. It's still hard and involved.

Your point about local politics is in general a good one pertaining to why any sort of infrastructure cooperation is difficult in New England. Our local governments are hyper-local and extremely powerful. Our political boundaries are old and static, and don't follow the metro-area's density. That makes negotiating to get things done a very long, drawn out, and expensive proposition.

No one is saying that any of this tunneling is impossible. I'm saying that given the current realities of politics, government, finances and engineering, the cost-benefit gap on many of these grand plans are just too large to incur.
 
I just find it hard to buy the oft-quoted argument on this forum that the streets are too old to dig underneath them.
London, though, is well inland, with a good layer of rock for things like Crossrail, and a real and ancient shoreline, rather than being seaside muck and fill.
 
London does have large areas where the base of the land is clay. Just search London Clay there is a whole wikipedia article on it. It sounds more stable than the clay and fill mix that Boston sits on.
 
yeah, i dont know london geology and wouldnt be able to interpret a geology map... it might be neither here nor there, but theyve done more than crossrail, the jubilee line was extended underground too, right through westminster (ancient), and at least green park i know use to be swampy... i think the part in docklands (landfill) is very deep. maybe the whole thing is and thats how it was accomplished, i dont know.
 
This was posted by my favorite Tumblr (Transit Maps)

I have never heard of this particular proposal but the idea was, in 1972, to take all the commuter rail lines and electrify them via catenary wires and connect them to the subway tunnels through downtown. There were plans on the books to convert the dying commuter rail lines into mass transit going back as far as the 1940s but I haven't seen something quite like this.

Apparently the Worcester-Back Bay service would be via Budd cars, or DMUs as we call them today. Interesting that service to South Station was only via Amtrak. Also the Red Line hadn't been extended to Alewife yet but this would have brought it out all the way to Ayer (!!!!)

tumblr_njfb5kR7U21u72abuo1_1280.jpg
 

Back
Top