Crazy Transit Pitches

[vanshnookenraggen]

That's true. However my original point was that extending the Huntington Ave subway to Brookline Village, while a good idea, runs into the problem when it comes to connecting the D to the E. The only place where there is space for (and not requiring land taking) is along the Riverway south of Longwood Ave. Such a northerly portal location would require a subway to swing back to connect with Huntington Ave. Longwood Ave is the heart of the LMA and so building a station there only makes sense and makes more sense when it comes to laying out a new subway that delivers riders right to where they want to be.

Too often transit is built where it is more convenient to build and less convenient for riders to use. Granted both Longwood stations (on the D and E) are roughly a 1/3 of a mile from the heart of LMA so it's not unbearable. But if you are going to take the time and money to upgrade the transit infrastructure you may as well do it right.

 

[winstonoboogie]

I had assumed they were scraped years ago when I had a similar thought, so I never brought it up. Even if they don't run, getting spare parts off of them wouldn't hurt. Four years is a while, especially if they were flooded when Sandy hit. But it's not like the guys at Seashore haven't gotten equipment running after sitting in the woods for a decade, so I'm sure qualified people at the T could.

Not that many parts in common, the PA4s have Westinghouse motors and controls, the present MBTA Orange Line cars have General Electric motors/controls. Problems with running PA4s on Orange would be similar to the issues with old Blue Line cars, they would have to install ATO/ATC cab signal equipment in them and the higher weight loads for an 8-car train of short cars vs. a six-car train of existing would require upgrades to bridges. A PA-4 weighs about 62,000 pounds while an Orange Line car weighs 68,000. So an 8-car train of PA4s would be close to 500,000 (especially if the weight goes up with added signal equipment) while a six-car train of existing Orange is about 408,000 pounds.

 

[tangent]

And by train I don't mean steel-on-steel per se, but as Matthew pointed out it needs a dedicated right of way and level boarding. There is nothing wrong with the Paris Metro because it runs on rubber tires - it runs in tunnels and has level boarding. You simply cannot replicate the efficiency of having people come together on foot, have the vehicle pull up in front of them, and they step on. When they get close to where they are going, they step off and complete the trip on foot. That is the most common form of transportation in the world because it works REALLY well.

The core of what I am proposing is merely to replace "steel-on-steel" so that we can run autonomous vehicles in between trains/trolleys/buses. And I agree that level boarding is desirable... which by the way you don't have on the Green Line trolley.

The autonomous part is what allows adaptive navigation and scheduling so that it is no longer a dedicated right of way. So bus/train leaves station and then behind it autonomous vehicles which are approved for such use get automatically routed along that express route in between in some predetermined priority. If the route is running full with mass transit vehicle then so be it and they take priority and no smaller vehicles get to use the route.

It is the best of both worlds you get mass transit if and when you need it, but you get most efficient use of the right of way the rest of the time.

 

[tangent]

The biggest problem with your proposal is revealed by the behavior of Silver Line bus drivers in the Transitway tunnel: they have to drive really slowly in order to make sure they don't hit the walls. The advantage of rails in a tunnel is that you are able to go very fast through a narrow space without having to worry about steering; it reduces the possible of dimensions of travel to a single one, allowing you to focus both the driver's cognitive efforts and the engine's mechanical efforts on moving forward at an appropriate speed.

This is what I was thinking about when I was proposing autonomous vehicles only. You don't need tracks or guides if you have a computerized control system driving the vehicle. I wouldn't want human drivers on the narrower right of way. And a computer can be programmed to drive better, people mostly can't.

 

[Matthew]

The core of what I am proposing is merely to replace "steel-on-steel" so that we can run autonomous vehicles in between trains/trolleys/buses. And I agree that level boarding is desirable... which by the way you don't have on the Green Line trolley.

The autonomous part is what allows adaptive navigation and scheduling so that it is no longer a dedicated right of way. So bus/train leaves station and then behind it autonomous vehicles which are approved for such use get automatically routed along that express route in between in some predetermined priority. If the route is running full with mass transit vehicle then so be it and they take priority and no smaller vehicles get to use the route.

It is the best of both worlds you get mass transit if and when you need it, but you get most efficient use of the right of way the rest of the time.

And what happens when you have a large vehicle carrying 500 people getting stuck behind a small autonomous car making a drop-off? Or when you have a bunch of small autonomous vehicles that want to go 'express' getting stuck behind the big train making every stop?

The more vehicles start to use a narrow right-of-way with a single 'track', the more necessary it is for every vehicle to have the same stopping pattern. That's one constraint.

The other constraint is that the more vehicles you have running on the 'track', the more your capacity is limited by emergency stopping distance. And if vehicular capacity is limited by emergency stopping distance, then the only way to increase the person-capacity of the system is to make each individual vehicle bigger.

Essentially we're just reinventing the 'train system' except using extremely complicated guidance mechanisms.

Now there is some benefit to having vehicles that can fan out over a wide area and then combine into a trunk (much like the subway-surface trolley system of which the Green Line is a remnant). So, I think there is a bright future for autonomous buses that can combine for capacity on a trunk line. But those are going to need new rights-of-ways that are built for that purpose. It doesn't make any sense to take an existing right-of-way that is narrow but can handle 250,000 people per day on a train and degrade it to something that cannot handle that same kind of load.

And there's likely going to be no room for small, personal autonomous vehicles in such a system. If there is capacity for them, then that's almost literally a proof that there's not enough demand to justify the system being built in the first place.

 

[davem]

Let's not forget that other than maglev, steel on steel is nearly frictionless, and therefore super efficient. Rubber on asphalt is terrible by comparison. Then there are associated maintenance costs...

Even if you could get around the inherent capacity issues (which you can't) you're making a vastly less efficient and costly to maintain system.

 

[oyhimylm]

I'm not sure of the degree of crazy this is, but could the Tufts branch of the GLX be extended all the way out to Woburn Center?

It would continue on the Lowell line through Medford and Winchester, and then split off to run on the old rail right of way parallel to Main Street / Route 38, and terminate at High Street. Other than parking lots, the right of way appears to have suffered relatively little encroachment.

The line would be very similar in function to the Riverside line. It would have relatively widely spaced stops to serve inner-suburban-density communities along a previous commuter rail right of way. For Winchester, the main advantage would be much higher frequency service, and rapid transit access to Somerville and Woburn. Woburn would get back transit from its core to Boston.

Additionally, it would allow the Lowell line to have only a single stop within 128 (Winchester Center). Transit time from the cities of the Merrimack Valley would improve, and there would be additional capacity available for trains on those lines and the Downeaster.

I say all of this, but obviously the population of this corridor is on the "less urgent transit need" end of the scale. Certainly something like Blue Line to Lynn would be more important. However, other potential expansions, Green/Orange to Needham or Red to Burlington would serve similar populations. It at least deserves keeping in mind as far as preventing further encroachment on the necessary right of way.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

In the 1945 MTA plan that was the idea but with commuter rail service to Lowell so popular it would require expanding the ROW through Winchester as well as a totally new bridge/overpass in West Medford. It just doesn't justify the cost when the ridership of the Green Line would drop after College Ave anyway.

 

[tangent]

Let's not forget that other than maglev, steel on steel is nearly frictionless, and therefore super efficient. Rubber on asphalt is terrible by comparison. Then there are associated maintenance costs...

Even if you could get around the inherent capacity issues (which you can't) you're making a vastly less efficient and costly to maintain system.

The durability of steel and ability to carry heavy loads of steel are the benefits of steel on steel Less friction is actually a significant drawback. Ideally you would have high friction where the wheel meets the surface to avoid slippage during acceleration and deceleration and when coasting close to zero friction at the axle to allow momentum to carry you forward. Maglev at the axle would be good...

I think you are stuck on peak capacity as the only issue that matters. 98% of the time theoretical peak capacity just doesn't matter except on a small number of segments. Getting people where they want to go as quickly as practical should be the number one priority in a transportation system.

 

[George_Apley]

I'm not sure of the degree of crazy this is, but could the Tufts branch of the GLX be extended all the way out to Woburn Center?

It would continue on the Lowell line through Medford and Winchester, and then split off to run on the old rail right of way parallel to Main Street / Route 38, and terminate at High Street. Other than parking lots, the right of way appears to have suffered relatively little encroachment.

The line would be very similar in function to the Riverside line. It would have relatively widely spaced stops to serve inner-suburban-density communities along a previous commuter rail right of way. For Winchester, the main advantage would be much higher frequency service, and rapid transit access to Somerville and Woburn. Woburn would get back transit from its core to Boston.

Additionally, it would allow the Lowell line to have only a single stop within 128 (Winchester Center). Transit time from the cities of the Merrimack Valley would improve, and there would be additional capacity available for trains on those lines and the Downeaster.

I say all of this, but obviously the population of this corridor is on the "less urgent transit need" end of the scale. Certainly something like Blue Line to Lynn would be more important. However, other potential expansions, Green/Orange to Needham or Red to Burlington would serve similar populations. It at least deserves keeping in mind as far as preventing further encroachment on the necessary right of way.

Woburn Center could be reached by RT with some tunneling. The ROW isn't clean anymore. I think it's safe to figure that the Green Line (or whatever eventual HRT assumption that someday takes over) will not get north of West Medford for a long time. After the Route 16 stop is completed sometime in the early 2020s, the next logical step is the jump to West Medford by widening the bridge. The grade-crossing needs to be eliminated anyway, so it should at least be provisioned for when that happens.

Beyond West Medford it's really not economically practical. Figure that the T will run DMUs between Lowell and North Station at 20 minute headways with at least one added stop on the Lowell Line at Montvale Ave and maybe one at Cross Street. The Lowell Line has a good amount of capacity. It should be able to handle the high frequency Lowell Line, plus Haverhill trains (splitting at the Wildcat Branch), Downeasters, freights and a low-frequency Nashua or Manchester train.

IF New Hampshire schedules beef up, Amtrak adds more runs to MH or ME, Haverhill splits to Plaistow and Rockaway (most of these needing the NSRL to happen) then the inside-128 DMU stops start to be a drag on schedules. That's when to start looking at a GLX north of West Medford. I wouldn't do the harder route to Woburn Center though. Have GLX go north to Anderson. Really remake Anderson (and Mishawum, if it stays open) into a real mixed-use, TOD sector. That way MBCR, Amtrak and NHCR trains can express from North Station to Anderson (with a few maybe stopping at West Medford), while all inside-128 riders take the Green Line (or it's HRT replacement).

The hardest part is the tunneling under Winchester Center. The viaduct isn't going to be widened to accommodate 4 tracks.

 

[tangent]

Woburn Center could be reached by RT with some tunneling. The ROW isn't clean anymore.

Funny I was just looking at this. Yes a tunnel with a station with parking garage behind the shops where there is a city parking lot now would be great for the downtown there.

The hardest part is the tunneling under Winchester Center. The viaduct isn't going to be widened to accommodate 4 tracks.

Too wet on either side of winchester center to make below grade practical.

 

[George_Apley]

Funny I was just looking at this. Yes a tunnel with a station with parking garage behind the shops where there is a city parking lot now would be great for the downtown there.




Too wet on either side of winchester center to make below grade practical.

If that's the case then you're never getting RT to Woburn, and you're never getting more than two tracks past West Medford.

I saw the portal down on the western side of the ROW adjacent to Rangeley Ridge, continuing under the ROW/Laraway Rd, beneath the rotary, under the ROW north of the Center and emerging on the eastern side of the ROW north of Skillings Rd by the HS.

Winchester has needed to come to terms with the chronic flooding issues in the center for a long time.

 

[mass88]

You've got $2 Billion and get to decide what it gets spent on. What are you going to do with it?

 

[bigeman312]

You've got $2 Billion and get to decide what it gets spent on. What are you going to do with it?

In addition to allocated funds or as a replacement for allocated funds?

As a replacement:

• New Red Line Cars
• New Orange Line Cars
• Red-Blue Connector

In addition:

• Red-Blue Connector
• Expanding the fleet/yard space for the Red Line and Orange Line to allow for 3 minute peak frequency on the core Red Line, and 4 minute peak frequency on the Orange Line
• Any leftover money would go towards rebuilding as much of Huntington/"E" branch as possible (probably not very much), with a buried "E" and true BRT for the 66 and 39. In a dream world, creating a busway for the 1/39 underground with connections to the "E" at the intersection of Huntington and Mass Ave, replacing the current vehicle underpass.

 

[mass88]

In addition to allocated funds or as a replacement for allocated funds?

As a replacement:

• New Red Line Cars
• New Orange Line Cars
• Red-Blue Connector

In addition:

• Red-Blue Connector
• Expanding the fleet/yard space for the Red Line and Orange Line to allow for 3 minute peak frequency on the core Red Line, and 4 minute peak frequency on the Orange Line
• Any leftover money would go towards rebuilding as much of Huntington/"E" branch as possible (probably not very much), with a buried "E" and true BRT for the 66 and 39. In a dream world, creating a busway for the 1/39 underground with connections to the "E" at the intersection of Huntington and Mass Ave, replacing the current vehicle underpass.

In addition to allocated funds.

 

[tangent]

If that's the case then you're never getting RT to Woburn, and you're never getting more than two tracks past West Medford.

I saw the portal down on the western side of the ROW adjacent to Rangeley Ridge, continuing under the ROW/Laraway Rd, beneath the rotary, under the ROW north of the Center and emerging on the eastern side of the ROW north of Skillings Rd by the HS.

Winchester has needed to come to terms with the chronic flooding issues in the center for a long time.

Winchester's flooding has gotten much better over the years, but I still think the high water table through the center makes a tunnel cost prohibitive and probable the reason the rail is elevated in the first place. And the disruption from the construction of a tunnel would be politically untenable.

Why would you need more tracks through Winchester Center for a branch line? Or are you assuming higher frequency service?

From Winchester Center to Woburn Center the old rail ROW has been sold off/encroached but it is still largely just parking lots and a few condos. The supermarket built an addition into the old ROW so they would be the largest potential commercial/business opposition. The old rail bed up to Woburn Center was below grade.

Reversing the loss of the ROW would be close to impossible, but not impossible. Only the condo takings would be politically/emotionally difficult. You would probably get opposition from a few dozen residential neighbors which would make it very very difficult to get broader support. So you would really need an overall plan that involved a real transformation of Woburn Center to get the needed support to bring rail back.

But practically speaking I would see the only tunneling needed between High Street and Montvale Ave if you wanted to go all the way into Woburn Center, which I think you should. But for this to be remotely feasible there would have to be some sort of multi-billion dollar mixed use plan to go along with it.

But I think for a long time you are going to see focus of development being around Anderson Station in North Woburn and Mishawum along with a bridge to New Boston Street tracks for cars and pedestrians to tie the area back together, so rail back to Woburn Center is probably more of a 30 to 50 year rail dream.

 

[George_Apley]

Why would you need more tracks through Winchester Center for a branch line? Or are you assuming higher frequency service?

Because the question was about GLX, not Commuter Rail resumption.

 

[MBTAddict]

In a dream world, creating a busway for the 1/39 underground with connections to the "E" at the intersection of Huntington and Mass Ave, replacing the current vehicle underpass.

This is the sexiest thing I've ever read on this forum.

 

[asap_mozart]

Another sexy idea: taking the Lowell Line and creating a new ROW above I-93, passing through the circle near Medford Sq, than through the Utility ROW the begins at the interchange with Route 128, reconnecting with the old line at Anderson. This would free up the old lowell/haverhill routes for service to Woburn on the green and express trains to Reading on the orange line.


The real issue here is constructing over the Fells.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zHBKbWS6THfI.kwC9oMTw70kQ

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

The real question is, why?