Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street | Downtown

[TheMagicMan]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Rifleman is going to keep derailing threads with his tax $ diatribe.

First-off its the Magicman. Second its not derailing a thread to find a better solution for what is proposed.

This proposal is garbage for the public and Boston long-term value.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

I can't read his/her comments b/c I blocked him long ago, but of course he/she is making no sense.

The city is "broke" b/c of limitations on how much money it can revenue it can raise from property taxes. Everyone knows this as fact, right? The past 5 years saw half the increase in property tax revenue from existing development and half from new development (approximately $70-90 million per year). That's around 5% growth, per year, the majority of which goes to pay existing bills (inflation at 1-2% per year) plus higher costs due to new union agreements and ever-rising healthcare/retirement costs.

Don't go off on "well, they should change that"; the question was, why is it in the predicament it is right now. How to fix that is a completely different conversation.

Looking at the pipeline of new development, I think this year will be a good one for new tax revenue (Pier 4, One Dalton, etc.) but it flattens and shrinks during the foreseeable future due to the few large, expensive residential buildings coming online and few new commercial towers.

Also, keep in mind - a billion dollar building (like we had with Millennium Tower) brings in around $11 million in new tax revenue per year. That's a literal drop in the bucket.

I bring this up a lot... forget Boston how is the country broke when the economy is absolutely booming? Crazy isnt it. If every city/state is broke now imagine when the economy slows down... The national debt is growing massively at a time of massive prosperity. Thats a bad sign...

Anyways on this site it sounds like we better pick whichever project is the least bad and be happy, the garage is staying. With this new design, I can live with it.

 

[odurandina]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Boston's revenue is piss low and always has been due to its huge ratio of educational buildings vs commercial and modest residential scale. For perspective; Boston's revenue is about 36% of San Francisco despite SF being only about 20% bigger. It's going to take a very long time to change this picture regardless of a so-called boom. And that's just it; Flynn & Menino were in bed with the anti-development crowd for decades. Construction was so dismal for so long, this seems like some incredible expansion--when in reality, Boston is just holding serve w/ it's peers.

See the stonewalling of dynamic BHA/partner proposals. Roxbury, Dorchester, JP, Rozzie remain largely under-developed. And with near zero federal funding, significant housing relief in the near future appears pie in the sky. Impact projects of the height and scale that could alleviate the emergency get held up for years--or cut down (projects that fly through other cities). The construction of 400' resident towers that would change the game not only are unnecessarily rare--they are about to become extinct.

Boston's schools are finally seeing plans for improvements long overdue. Where's the Northern Ave Bridge? Where is the Blue Line to Mass General or Kenmore. Where's West Station--and the NSRL?. Where are necessary rail links out of Back Bay to connect the neighborhoods? Estimates claim we're $15B behind on transit improvements--or is the number closer to $20~25B? The list of critically needed capital improvements already 10, 20 years late create a rather grim outlook for future growth.

Lastly; the 800 pound elephant: Boston has other fiscal challenges presently and ahead that paint another cloudy picture for the future economic health.

 

[TheMagicMan]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Are there any real solutions to help persuade or encourage developers/investors that own these above garages to build something of substance for long-term value?

There has to be some ideas out there. What could the city/state propose to rid these atrocious blockades for the betterment of the public?

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

It's a two-fer. Both of the people below my last comment are on my ignore list!

 

[odurandina]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Because what's better than flaunting one's moral superiority and self-imposed pridefulness?

Umm, this is an architectural discussion site. "Shut up" is not what it's set for.

 

[HalcyonEra]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Are there any real solutions to help persuade or encourage developers/investors that own these above garages to build something of substance for long-term value?

There has to be some ideas out there. What could the city/state propose to rid these atrocious blockades for the betterment of the public?

The ROI on burying a garage is simply not there unless you can go substantially vertical. And you know full well how that plays in this town.

 

[Charlie_mta]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

The ROI on burying a garage is simply not there unless you can go substantially vertical. And you know full well how that plays in this town.

Why is a garage needed at all? It was built around 1980 when there was a whole lot less traffic congestion. An artifact from another time,

 

[stick n move]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Why is “Burying” the garage so expensive here? At the harbor garage this is the case because the garage holds the utilities of the 2 harbor towers so its a whole deal. How would this be any different than what happens here all the time where they build the building and put parking in the basement? This happens all the time and is happening right now on multiple u/c buildings around the city. Demolish the garage, then proceed as usual. Im failing to see whats so crazy about it?

 

[mdd]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Why is a garage needed at all? It was built around 1980 when there was a whole lot less traffic congestion. An artifact from another time,

This is still a city and despite how unfortunate it is, a LOT of people drive in daily. Parking garages are still a necessity.

 

[atlantaden]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

To those of you who are all for knocking down/getting rid of the parking garage instead of building on it, please explain your support of the redevelopment of the Motor Mart garage, which was widely acclaimed as a freaking great thing (except Magic, you weren't here for that discussion.)

 

[stellarfun]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Why is “Burying” the garage so expensive here? At the harbor garage this is the case because the garage holds the utilities of the 2 harbor towers so its a whole deal. How would this be any different than what happens here all the time where they build the building and put parking in the basement? This happens all the time and is happening right now on multiple u/c buildings around the city. Demolish the garage, then proceed as usual. Im failing to see whats so crazy about it?

1.) Chiofaro's new underground garage would not hold utilities; not allowed because resiliency requires these be above ground.

2.) The cost per space for HT's underground garage was $100,000 plus. The cost per space is on the very high end, an outlier, because of: the poor soil; within the historic tidal flow zone, and hydrostatic pressure; number of levels and excavation depth; proximity to the CA/T tunnel; and columns supporting a tower would run smack through the garage.

3.) An underground Dock Square garage has some of the same issues, though not all to the same extent.

4.) Storm surge. See interactive map for 2050.
http://seachange.sasaki.com/
As inundation becomes more frequent, activating protective barriers for an underground garage means it will be increasingly inaccessible. (They'll have to do something about the CA/T ramps too.)

What happens when floodwaters reach an underground parking garage, in this instance, a building with about 500 spaces on two levels.

https://youtu.be/pHYfnzb8LoM

The Dock Square developers have cut the number of spaces from 700 to 450. Now only a third of Chiofaro's 1400. The gsf of new building is about 450,000?, a little more than a third of the gsf that Chiofaro said he needed to pay for the cost of burying his garage.

The only deep garage constructed along the Greenway is the one at the Intercontinental, and that was dug by the Big Dig, because it wraps around a vent shaft.

 

[TheMagicMan]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

The ROI on burying a garage is simply not there unless you can go substantially vertical. And you know full well how that plays in this town.

If this is the only way to get rid of the above garages why doesn't our city planners offer or negotiate on certain parcels that occupy above garages to encourage the developers to offer proposals to build much higher?

There would only be a couple of parcels that would require more height. It would be nice to see the city of Boston float a couple of 800-900 foot towers downtown.

It would also help relieve the surrounding areas of Boston from traffic.

The city/state planners need to sitdown with the FAA and request certain locations need to go higher. I'm sure the airplanes can avoid 2 or 3 skyscrapers over 800ft in downtown.

If the city is in dire financial straits then our city planners need to build higher which would solve multiple issues for Boston and the surrounding areas.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

1.) Chiofaro's new underground garage would not hold utilities; not allowed because resiliency requires these be above ground.

2.) The cost per space for HT's underground garage was $100,000 plus. The cost per space is on the very high end, an outlier, because of: the poor soil; within the historic tidal flow zone, and hydrostatic pressure; number of levels and excavation depth; proximity to the CA/T tunnel; and columns supporting a tower would run smack through the garage.

3.) An underground Dock Square garage has some of the same issues, though not all to the same extent.

4.) Storm surge. See interactive map for 2050.
http://seachange.sasaki.com/
As inundation becomes more frequent, activating protective barriers for an underground garage means it will be increasingly inaccessible. (They'll have to do something about the CA/T ramps too.)

What happens when floodwaters reach an underground parking garage, in this instance, a building with about 500 spaces on two levels.

https://youtu.be/pHYfnzb8LoM

The Dock Square developers have cut the number of spaces from 700 to 450. Now only a third of Chiofaro's 1400. The gsf of new building is about 450,000?, a little more than a third of the gsf that Chiofaro said he needed to pay for the cost of burying his garage.

The only deep garage constructed along the Greenway is the one at the Intercontinental, and that was dug by the Big Dig, because it wraps around a vent shaft.

I didnt say the underground harbor garage would hold utilities. I said thats one of the reasons why its so expensive and complicated to sink the harbor garage is because it holds the harbor towers utilities.


Yes the harbor garage is expensive thats well established. That wasnt my question, it was why is this so expensive when all they have to do is demolish the garage then build a regular tower. The extra expense would be demolition and removal of material. Then after that you dig a hole like any other building and many going up now and build the underground garage and building.

Im asking people what makes this particular instance so expensive. Why cant they just demolish the garage and then build a building with underground garage just like they do all around the city all the time?

1.)
The Dock Square developers have cut the number of spaces from 700 to 450. Now only a third of Chiofaro's 1400. The gsf of new building is about 450,000?, a little more than a third of the gsf that Chiofaro said he needed to pay for the cost of burying his garage.

They dont have all of the same problems/expenses as the harbor garage.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

BCDC from yesterday:

www.bostonplans.org/documents/plann...square-garage-bcdc-presentation-2019-06-04-(1)

 

[TheMagicMan]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

1.) Chiofaro's new underground garage would not hold utilities; not allowed because resiliency requires these be above ground.

2.) The cost per space for HT's underground garage was $100,000 plus. The cost per space is on the very high end, an outlier, because of: the poor soil; within the historic tidal flow zone, and hydrostatic pressure; number of levels and excavation depth; proximity to the CA/T tunnel; and columns supporting a tower would run smack through the garage.

3.) An underground Dock Square garage has some of the same issues, though not all to the same extent.

4.) Storm surge. See interactive map for 2050.
http://seachange.sasaki.com/
As inundation becomes more frequent, activating protective barriers for an underground garage means it will be increasingly inaccessible. (They'll have to do something about the CA/T ramps too.)

What happens when floodwaters reach an underground parking garage, in this instance, a building with about 500 spaces on two levels.

https://youtu.be/pHYfnzb8LoM

The Dock Square developers have cut the number of spaces from 700 to 450. Now only a third of Chiofaro's 1400. The gsf of new building is about 450,000?, a little more than a third of the gsf that Chiofaro said he needed to pay for the cost of burying his garage.

The only deep garage constructed along the Greenway is the one at the Intercontinental, and that was dug by the Big Dig, because it wraps around a vent shaft.

Your always mentioning Harbor Garage and coming to the defense of the garage when somebody bad mouths an above garage scenario to be redeveloped. I'm just curious if you have sometype of personal agenda against specifically Harbor Garage development.

Its clearly this is the Dock Square Garage thread which does have some similar issues like Harbor Garage but you sure know every specific detail concerning the Harbor Garage scenario vs Dock Square garage.

Motor Mart Tower looks like amazing rendering. So why do you come across acting like nothing can be done to Harbor Garage even if the Developer can just build on top of it? I personally don't believe that outcome would be positive for the Greenway if the developer decided to go the route of Motor Mart Tower but if the city gives you no other options.

Keeping these above garages in place is not in the public best interest especially located next to a park and also in the core of the city. It defeats the entire purpose of city planning and what is best for the public.

Remember in the end investors just want to cash out of their investment with a return. They don't care how the area will turn out for the public in the long-run.

 

[JANAM]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

BCDC from yesterday:

www.bostonplans.org/documents/plann...square-garage-bcdc-presentation-2019-06-04-(1)

Interesting result from BCDC, in the BBJ today:

"The board on Tuesday evening voted three times — first on a motion to outright disapprove the project’s design for a second time, and then on a motion to approve the project’s design with conditions regarding its height and facade. Neither motion had enough votes to pass.

In a third vote, the BCDC agreed it could not reach a majority regarding the project as currently designed, and chose to send a split vote to the BPDA. A split vote is a rarity for the board."

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

Interesting result from BCDC, in the BBJ today:

"The board on Tuesday evening voted three times — first on a motion to outright disapprove the project’s design for a second time, and then on a motion to approve the project’s design with conditions regarding its height and facade. Neither motion had enough votes to pass.

In a third vote, the BCDC agreed it could not reach a majority regarding the project as currently designed, and chose to send a split vote to the BPDA. A split vote is a rarity for the board."

It's rare for the BCDC to get a project of this maddening sort - with the new cladding it's not awful, but it's so far below what it should be.

 

[Beton Brut]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

(P)lease explain your support of the redevelopment of the Motor Mart garage, which was widely acclaimed as a freaking great thing...

The Motormart Garage is significant, both from an historical and a design perspective. By comparison, The Dock Square Garage, though built of better materials than a similarly programmed contemporary building, has all the charm of a saw-horse. Make it go away, and replace it with a proper urban building.

 

[stellarfun]

Re: Dock Square Parking Garage | 20 Clinton Street |

It's rare for the BCDC to get a project of this maddening sort - with the new cladding it's not awful, but it's so far below what it should be.

As I understand the vote, the first vote rejected the design outright; the second vote rejected the design even if there were changes to the facade materials / height.

(And your link, supra, is to a different project, a Samuels project in Dorchester, but the lead architect is Stantec. Simply shows that even Samuels can drop to a low denominator for buildings off the beaten track.)