Downtown Crossing/Financial District | Discussion

statler said:
Who the hell is keeping Hep Zeppi, Wet Seal, Foot Locker, Lids, Skechers, Mahattan, etc in business?
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I dunno the thug kids who steal stuff, pawn it at one of the many crooked jewelery and cellphone stores, and then buy $300 sneakers? Ever read about the epidemic of shoplifting in Downtown Crossing? It was one of the worst locations for retail shrinkage in the country in the 1980s!

This is only considered a racial issue because some idiots will sue over discrimination instead of admitting bad behavior is unacceptable by any gangs of youths. If Quincy Market was overrun with lily white Italian thugs behaving the in the same manner, I doubt it would be considered acceptable either.

I don't care if the kids are freakin' orange skinned ethnic ompa loompas in white overalls brandishing candy canes and listening to blaring polka, thuggish behavior, littering, and loitering is unacceptably detrimental to any shopping district.
 
So your assumption that most of the goods bought in these stores are paid for with ill-gotten loot is based on crime statistics of the 1980's?
 
Yeah, how are crime statistics from the days of the Reagan administration relevant now?
 
statler said:
So your assumption that most of the goods bought in these stores are paid for with ill-gotten loot is based on crime statistics of the 1980's?
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No, it's based on all the police reports of stolen jewelery, GPS devices, and cell phones being 'found' on thugs being collared in Downtown Crossing or being identified by people who happen to see their stuff being hawked in a store window. Try buying a 'used' cellphone from a non chain store down there, it's the shadiest thing you'll legally ever do, if you don't believe me.

Do you honestly think a bunch of kids who are never in school, never at work, obviously don't have rich parents, can somehow magically afford $300 dollar sneakers, enough bling to make Laurence Tureaud jealous, really expensive cell phones, new jackets and hats on a weekly basis?
 
Heh. Reminds me of a few jokes I heard as a kid (paraphrased of course).

Q.What do you call an urban youth on a bike?
A. Thief!

Q. What do you can an urban youth in a suit?
A. Defendant
 
Well I guess those hoodies must be perfectly swell people and that's why stores have not problem staying business, PAYING customers feel safe in the area at all times of day, there are never fights, intimidation, theft, vandalism, nope it's all a sterotype in peoples' minds. Turning a blind eye to a problem doesn't make it go away and taking discussion off the table because someone is going to cry racism doesn't help either.

Thugs are thugs, no matter what their ethnicity is, until the city and the politically correct crowd can acknowledge that fact and move them out of Downtown Crossing, the place will continue to be a municipal money pit.
 
I wonder how Macy's and Borders survive in DTX. Clearly their clientelle is different from the teenagers in question.
 
Borders is on the edge of Downtown crossing close to major tourist attractions and swanky hotels. Macy's has the pass through office crowd and is directly accessible from the subway. If no loitering was enforced on Winter Street and the Corner Mall was replaced with a major retailer taking up the Gilchrist building, it would make a major difference.

It's the concentration of stores which tend to attract troublesome youth and their loitering that is creating the problem. One group hangs around in front of one store, and exponentially their friends or rivals passing through start to hang around and it becomes an issue of critical mass. If the stores were spread out evenly throughout Downtown Crossing's side streets and mid Washington Street with other shops of differing clientele and economic strata interspersed between them, it would eliminate a lot of sociological problems.
 
Lurker said:
If the stores were spread out evenly throughout Downtown Crossing's side streets and mid Washington Street with other shops of differing clientele and economic strata interspersed between them, it would eliminate a lot of sociological problems.
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In other words, desegregate the shopping?
 
haha, well I'm sorry but you can't prevent people from hanging out with their friends in DTX. Just because it isn't white, stagnant, and homogeneous - something this city seems to like - doesn't mean it's bad. The issue is a lot larger than these 'thugs' hanging out around the area. It is rather ignorant for anyone to suggest such a thing. My friends from out of town and in design/planning and ME don't cite these issues as errors or MAJOR issues for the area. Sure, mass congregation in certain areas can be detrimental to certain storefront passages but other than that, it isn't a problem, and if it is to some people then they should reconsider their existence. There is a BPD kiosk in the area you talk about - which is further proof they don't do their jobs correctly.
 
I also usually walk through Downtown Crossing once a day too. After school hours in the afternoon it can get seedy with kids loitering, however I have never had a problem and I don't feel any fear when walking through. There are just too many people and police nearby to feel fearful in my opinion. As far as the shooting a few weeks ago, I doubt its a sign that the area will become a war zone, its likely an abberation. As some may recall, there was a shooting in the upscale copley mall a few years back when rival kids happened to cross paths. I don't think Downtown Crossing is a dangerous place to visit and this is coming from a father of two kids nearing middle age and originally from Nebraska. A bit seedy yes, but not dangerous. Also there is a huge leap from relatively minor types of crimes like shoplifting etc. and violent crime like shooting. I just don't think Downtown Crossing is a hotbed for violent crime like shootings, rape etc.

Also, I was pleased to recognize the name of the BRA project manager, Andrew Grace, quoted in the Herald article on the new signage regs. If its the same Andrew Grace who used to work at Goody Clancy, I had brief interactions with him when I was involved in the "Roslindale Main Streets" program. My impression of him was that he was very well versed in urban design issues. It makes me feel better to find out that the BRA is hiring some talent and not all political hacks.
 
Randi Lathorpe is in charge of Downtown Crossing, unless that's changed that's part of the problem. Her unwillingness to confront zoning, leaving everything to draconian variance processes, and often deferring inquiries to ill-informed minions has been a serious deterrent to projects in the zone.
 
Just to clarify - Andrew Grace from the BRA was only quoted in the article re: the signage program. He may not have much to do with development projects in the area.
 
For the record, I really generally don't mind DTX in its current diverse form. Perhaps if I had visited it decades ago, I might have a different perception, but to me its just a loud, busy, place with a variety of shops where I can buy most anything I need except for staple groceries and designer fashion.

I also think that people behave in a way reflective of their physical environment. All the money spent on branding, lobbying, studying, etc should be redirected to improving the physical appearances. Perhaps tax-credits for facade rehabs, money spent on upkeep of city property, etc. And for the love of god, spend the several million to completely update the appearance of DTX subway station.

Dark, dirty, crowded stations are catalysts for crime. Bright, clean, airy stations would reduce crime.

Like I said, people actions are often reflective of the physical environment they are in. I've never heard of purse snatchers roaming BPL, even though I would assume it would be easy targets. The social expecatation is you act proper in a clean, orderly place.
 
*Reality check*

The problem with these kids is that they come from sh!tty, broken homes. The majority of them probably live in single-parent households with no discipline and are never taught personal responsibility. They don't give a sh!t about anyone else but themselves. Their only concerns in life are:

* cash/money/bling
* getting laid
* appearing tough

Besides that, nothing else matters. Until DTX is cleaned up and more police are on patrol, these losers will continue to congregate there.

As for feeling safe? I'm fine there. But I really don't want my mother or sister around there.
 
There is a parallel case study for Boston's DTX in New York's Times Square:

It is ironic that as part of the revitalization/sanitation of Times Square, new rules regarding signage were also enacted - but exactly the oppposite of Menino's plan.

Guiliani's plan was to let the free market retailers decide what kind of signage would work for free market retailers. Go nuts - have fun.

You could now build whatever wild, crazy signage that you wanted. Free from restrictions of government, retailers were able to literally bring the former hooker/crime district to life with lighting, banners, etc. There is a 30-story high neon red "Ernst & Young" vertical sign for example. Imagine such a thing on One Franklin...

The sterilization (or revitalization depending on your outlook) of Times Square was partly accomplished by abolishing the city's signage policy - the opposite of Menino's plan.

It could never happen here - Guiliani is a free market capitalist and Menino is a true-blue socialist.

Like most Boston regulations, the ultimate plan is to make the city look clean, sanitized and sterilized. All signs must be the same small size. Font sizes will be regulated by the newly-appointed Font Czar, colors will be approved by "concerned citizen councils" etc, etc.

This is not unique to DTX - there is a BRA plan for the Dorchester Avenue corridor, Lower Allston, Brighton Center, Seaport. Communist Mike Ross wants to steal the ugly buildings on Cambridge Street and make them "historic" so the "Historic Czar" can exert control over what types of windows home-owners may want to buy, etc.

If you want to know what the ultimate realization of this socialist policy towards urban design, check out Pyongyang in North Korea. Individualism is stripped away so the "district" can present a unified, orderly, and clean face forward.

So DTX plans to solve its image problem by removing it's image altogether and fading into the "context" of orderly, clean and neat new Boston.
 
Pelhamhall....I don't think you were responding to what I stated above, but in case you were I want to clarify that I'm not promoting sterility or even heavy-handed design standards, rather general upkeep, and improvement of publically owned spaces. I agree the government's roll should be limited to addressing public infrastructure, and encouraging private businesses to make investments, but staying out of micromanaging the investments.
 
I'm sorry - I should have been more clear - I was responding to the Boston Globe article about how the city will add another costly layer of bureaucracy so that somebody's nephew can get a job reviewing signage standards, fonts and colors for DTX, and how this person and like-minded citizen-councils will do the work of designers, architects, retailers, and environmental branders.
 
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