Echelon Seaport | 133-135 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

[JANAM]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

There’s a bonobos...which is infinitely better than jcrew and BR...plus assembly has a jcrew and fanueil has a BR. I’d love to see a Nordstrom, grocery store, and some more fitness options.

Bonobos is a nice addition, Nordstrom would be great, I hear there is a Whole Foods going in the base of Amazon's new building which is awesome. A little Irish Pub/Dive Bar would be great, not sure where it would fit though, a basement space could work.

 

[cjbski]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Whole Foods in the Seaport would be awesome!

Agree on Nordstrom, but I bet if they ever come to the city of Boston it would be in Back Bay with their competitors.

(But then again, the only Neiman Marcus in Manhattan is going to Hudson Yards... so who knows!)

 

[Brad Plaid]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

A Family Dollar is needed, you know for diversity and inclusion.

 

[cadetcarl]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Might get flamed for this, but is anyone else concerned about blowing an opportunity to make a "cool" neighborhood here? Sorry in advance for dragging this a little further off topic.

With the caveat that this is an expensive place to be, and that expense can only be borne by a certain tier of retailer, is this really what we want? Whole Foods, Banana Republic, Bonobos, Nordstrom, J.Crew, etc. are definitely top-tier retailers, but they're also status brands for the upper middle class. They're deeply square. And they can be found anywhere vaguely wealthy people live.

Any time someone mentions more accessible attractions (divey places, convenience stores) it's treated as a joke. I don't have any proposals, and I don't think you can dictate the kind of variety I'm talking about. I'm just saying, nothing about the way we're framing the Seaport makes me excited to go there.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm 26, a minority, educated (but struggling, as many are). I'm from the area but went to school with people who've settled here from all over the country and world. My interest in the seaport comes from working as a designer and caring about the projects going up around the city, not because it's going to be a popping new neighborhood. None of my friends are talking about it outside of passing comments about how there seems to be a lot of construction over there. Diversity and inclusion aren't jokes to me. The vibe I'm getting from this place is that it's inaccessible to people like me, and almost on purpose.

I guess I'm trying to say when I travel, I'm not attracted to neighborhoods because they have all the same status symbols of Successful American City. But why would I visit DC and go to Nordstrom? I can find that anywhere. I know this isn't the retail thread but people seem to be enjoying this discussion.

Is anyone else concerned about this? Can one have a truly authentic neighborhood that only serves a limited segment of the population? Are there other metrics for "success" than market cap of retailers present? You'd never be able to call this place a failure when there are financials and pharmaceuticals headquartered here. Is that enough? The city has no incentive to change this condition because it maximizes revenue from the big companies. Do cities even need people of the lower economic tiers beyond their service employment? Certainly doesn't seem like they want them around.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

I agree with Cadet Carl. I avoid this area like the plague and all of my friends who also grew up in Boston do too. Basically the only reason I go over there is for the occasional concert at the pavilion or for the ICA. There isn't much to offer in terms of cheap fun (aka actual fun). I am convinced (even if the quality of the recent buildings has improved looks wise) that this "neighborhood" will be a bunch of boxes filled with overpriced appts, condos, and stores with nothing to offer except yet another sterile local for the tasteless global bourgeoisie, who it is clear this was designed for.

 

[bigpicture7]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Cadet Carl, you are not alone. The great/memorable neighborhoods are the ones that I think of from cities I've visited are nothing like the Seaport. Sure, other cities have built stuff like the seaport, but they are neither welcoming nor memorable. The memorable, welcoming, fun ones are like Deep Ellum in Dallas, or 6th Street in Austin, or Pioneer Square in Seattle, etc...some would look at these and say they're grungy, but I don't think so. They have soul; they intrigue one to want to explore them.

I'm with you on this. That said, I view the seaport more as a missed opportunity, rather than an outright travesty. The city was not on top of this. It let this one go.
But the optimist in me says that this isn't over yet. There's still a ton of space in the seaport, especially further out. Massport has a ton of former industrial areas that could be converted into something cool. IF the transit actually gets addressed, and IF MassPort does a good job planning their remaining parcels (or someone else gets delegated to oversee it), this could turnaround yet...

 

[chrisbrat]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

I am convinced (even if the quality of the recent buildings has improved looks wise) that this "neighborhood" will be a bunch of boxes filled with overpriced appts, condos, and stores with nothing to offer except yet another sterile local for the tasteless global bourgeoisie, who it is clear this was designed for.

ignoring for a second the quality or beauty of the buildings, weren't beacon hill and the back bay essentially neighborhoods designed expressly for the bourgeoisie? and aren't they essentially that, to this day? but i'd wager few would argue their validity as segments of the city.

not saying the seaport is or ever will be as appealing as either of those, but the area's barely half built-up. maybe give it time to grow into itself after it's actually, yknow, completed?

 

[shmessy]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

I am convinced (even if the quality of the recent buildings has improved looks wise) that this "neighborhood" will be a bunch of boxes filled with overpriced appts, condos, and stores with nothing to offer except yet another sterile local for the tasteless global bourgeoisie, who it is clear this was designed for.

That was the goal of the city from the very beginning.

It was all about money. Anyone hoping for otherwise was fooling themselves.

We can look to plenty of neighborhoods for "real" and interesting. I like visiting Central Square/Coolidge Corner/Huntington Ave, etc. The Seaport won't draw me much, but I will go there when I need to. This was going to be sterile and revenue producing from the very beginning.

The Seaport is fulfilling its job. I'm neither endorsing nor complaining. It is what it is. It used to be a sea of parking lots that was needed for the city. Now it's a sea of glass boxes that will bring a lot of revenue to the city.

 

[DZH22]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

ignoring for a second the quality or beauty of the buildings, weren't beacon hill and the back bay essentially neighborhoods designed expressly for the bourgeoisie? and aren't they essentially that, to this day? but i'd wager few would argue their validity as segments of the city.

not saying the seaport is or ever will be as appealing as either of those, but the area's barely half built-up. maybe give it time to grow into itself after it's actually, yknow, completed?

This is a good counterpoint. For instance, I enjoy walking through Beacon Hill, but the residential streets don't actually offer anything to the people who don't live there. It's just a beautiful neighborhood to take a stroll.

I also do the same thing in the Seaport. I go there to see the construction, look at the harbor, and pee at the Seaport Hotel. I almost never spend any money there (been to a couple of the dumpy bars like a decade ago) just like I almost never spend money in Beacon Hill or the North End. They're all frankly too expensive for me, but the established neighborhoods have the old-world charm. A brand new neighborhood will never have that charm, no matter where it's built.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Although I do agree with the posters above me in that the Seaport as it is now is a bit sterile, I would like to point out it's impossible to manufacture a "cool" neighborhood. The grit and grunge and the urban "coolness" takes time, as it has to happen organically.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Although I do agree with the posters above me in that the Seaport as it is now is a bit sterile, I would like to point out it's impossible to manufacture a "cool" neighborhood. The grit and grunge and the urban "coolness" takes time, as it has to happen organically.

That's a good point, however, I would add that huge/single footprinted buildings without much ground floor public pedestrian access kinda stack the deck against "coolness" ever developing.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

That's a good point, however, I would add that huge/single footprinted buildings without much ground floor public pedestrian access kinda stack the deck against "coolness" ever developing.

The good news is, all the new buildings have much more pedestrian access at the street level compared to the Massport buildings from the previous decade. Those dedicated loading docks and exhaust louvers to entire stretches of sidewalk.

It will be interesting to see if glass can somehow age and become cool. We know brick, brownstone, and other masonry materials can. Or is glass destined to always be sterile?

 

[coleslaw]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Although I do agree with the posters above me in that the Seaport as it is now is a bit sterile, I would like to point out it's impossible to manufacture a "cool" neighborhood. The grit and grunge and the urban "coolness" takes time, as it has to happen organically.

However they left no space for it here. The massive tracts being developed as single buildings (or groups buildings connected by pedestals) with wide canyon like streets and massive retail means that the type of things that can bring that aren't going to come. Is it even possible to have a cool hole in the wall there. (edit: what shmessy said)

ignoring for a second the quality or beauty of the buildings, weren't beacon hill and the back bay essentially neighborhoods designed expressly for the bourgeoisie? and aren't they essentially that, to this day? but i'd wager few would argue their validity as segments of the city.

not saying the seaport is or ever will be as appealing as either of those, but the area's barely half built-up. maybe give it time to grow into itself after it's actually, yknow, completed?

Back bay was designed for the rich, Beacon Hill's history is more complicated as the north slope was the center of the black community in boston until the civil war and not exclusively for the rich from the beginning, the north end is the oldest part of the city and also wasn't designed exclusively for the rich. However even those these neighborhoods now largely house the rich these were built at a different time and inherently much more walkable than seaport which the street pattern remains determined by the huge parking lots. These neighborhoods all have much smaller lot sizes, a much more well integrated and walkable streetscape, and (I know this is a matter of opinion) far better architecture.

I know this is always what this was going to be but that doesnt mean we have to like it. This neighborhood will suck and it wont stop sucking for a long time. If they had broken the lots into smaller sections (and not built every single building to the maximum allowed height, creating a sea of stumps) that could have helped but really to have actually built a decent neighborhood from scratch they would have had to plan for more than maximizing profit.

 

[HalcyonEra]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

That's a good point, however, I would add that huge/single footprinted buildings without much ground floor public pedestrian access kinda stack the deck against "coolness" ever developing.

The Seaport is a corporate playground. With new construction, developers need their ROI. Combining that with the exponential cost of pouring licenses, you are only going to get major national or deep pocketed local chain providers and their sterile cookie cutter establishments. I've traveled all over and while I am no means a foodie, I am amazed at the restaurants and pubs elsewhere that you simply don't see here anymore, with the exception of the North End and South End. I am convinced that is our restrictive liquor laws and limited supply thereof is the root cause.

The Seaport will do fine with all of the out town money that flows in, from the convention center and all the business' now and soon to be located there. Expense accounts know no bounds when entertaining clients.

The convoluted liquor laws and their arbitrary caps date back to the end of prohibition and solely benefit those already in the game. Now, at some point there will be a change (see cabbie medallions and emergence of Uber as Exhibit A), but who knows when and what that breaking point will be.

 

[bakgwailo]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

The convoluted liquor laws and their arbitrary caps date back to the end of prohibition and solely benefit those already in the game. Now, at some point there will be a change (see cabbie medallions and emergence of Uber as Exhibit A), but who knows when and what that breaking point will be.

Well, kind of - it was more the Yankee politicians at the State House desperately trying to hold on to power over the city as Irish Politicians (like Mayor Curly) were gaining full control. Out of this the liquor laws for the city/state then became pretty crazy and really inflated as the city has been booming lately. I do fully agree, though, that scarcity and price of liquor licenses greatly impact the type and quality of restaurants we get here and really limit the market to bigger local restaurant groups and chains.

That said - I think city planning also did drop the ball by not forcing a better more human street grid and maybe even forcing mega-block parcels to be subdivided (and divided by streets).

 

[shmessy]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

The good news is, all the new buildings have much more pedestrian access at the street level compared to the passport buildings from the previous decade. Those dedicated loading docks and exhaust louvers to entire stretches of sidewalk.

It will be interesting to see if glass can somehow age and become cool. We know brick, brownstone, and other masonry materials can. Or is glass destined to always be sterile?

Well, the Hancock is 45 years old.

The only difference I can tell is that the panes of glass aren't falling on pedestrians anymore.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Might get flamed for this, but is anyone else concerned about blowing an opportunity to make a "cool" neighborhood here? Sorry in advance for dragging this a little further off topic.

With the caveat that this is an expensive place to be, and that expense can only be borne by a certain tier of retailer, is this really what we want? Whole Foods, Banana Republic, Bonobos, Nordstrom, J.Crew, etc. are definitely top-tier retailers, but they're also status brands for the upper middle class. They're deeply square. And they can be found anywhere vaguely wealthy people live.

Any time someone mentions more accessible attractions (divey places, convenience stores) it's treated as a joke. I don't have any proposals, and I don't think you can dictate the kind of variety I'm talking about. I'm just saying, nothing about the way we're framing the Seaport makes me excited to go there.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm 26, a minority, educated (but struggling, as many are). I'm from the area but went to school with people who've settled here from all over the country and world. My interest in the seaport comes from working as a designer and caring about the projects going up around the city, not because it's going to be a popping new neighborhood. None of my friends are talking about it outside of passing comments about how there seems to be a lot of construction over there. Diversity and inclusion aren't jokes to me. The vibe I'm getting from this place is that it's inaccessible to people like me, and almost on purpose.

I guess I'm trying to say when I travel, I'm not attracted to neighborhoods because they have all the same status symbols of Successful American City. But why would I visit DC and go to Nordstrom? I can find that anywhere. I know this isn't the retail thread but people seem to be enjoying this discussion.

Is anyone else concerned about this? Can one have a truly authentic neighborhood that only serves a limited segment of the population? Are there other metrics for "success" than market cap of retailers present? You'd never be able to call this place a failure when there are financials and pharmaceuticals headquartered here. Is that enough? The city has no incentive to change this condition because it maximizes revenue from the big companies. Do cities even need people of the lower economic tiers beyond their service employment? Certainly doesn't seem like they want them around.

Idk if this is what you mean but my gf is black (honduran) and worked at kings and many other women of color work there with her. We went to check out the movie theater just to see how far its coming and a very enthusiastic african american man gave us the whole shpiel about all of the amenities. Im not sure if this is what you mean, but my gf worked here and is not white and her friends that work there are not either so the neighborhood is not 100% whitewashed, although the people who live there probably are.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Another thing of note is that the porter square mall actually did a great job of making a "little asia" section that is indoors and in a mall. When I was living in japan the thing that struck me is that here and other "western" cities all the retail/stores/restaurants are located along the street, but in japan there are restaurants in between buildings and even in the back alleys behind the buildings. No space is wasted and there is nowhere you cant put a little shop or restaurant. The porter square mall actually surprisingly did a pretty good job of recreating this (although indoors) so this gives me hope that if "cool" spaces can be recreated in something as sterile as a mall, who knows whats possible in the seaport with some time and change.

 

[Czervik.Construction]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Funny, as I now consider myself an out-of-towner, I really like what is going on over in the seaport. Yes, the buildings are cheap looking and seem to have been designed in an afternoon and then VE'd to death.

However, where there were once a sea of parking lots, now is a neighborhood where people live, work and eat. I am amazed at how far it has come.

I was here recently for a work conference and everybody went to the seaport every night, not the back bay or north end. My point here is that no one here thinks of it as somewhere to go hang out because it was not there when we grew up and the idea of an all new neighborhood is somewhat foreign. It was not part of our routine except for the occasional concert or a family trip to Anthony's Pier 4.

There are people coming from other parts of the US, other parts of the world and from Boston, too, that want to live in a new building with a doorman, amenities, a restaurant or bar in the building, a concierge, etc. - and then be able to walk to work in one of those new offices. A full service building is also a new concept to Boston.

I live in a 700 foot tall, dull glass box in NYC near Hudson Yards. Many will have a lot of negative to say about the sea of dull glass boxes. But for me, the amenities and the roof deck and the interior finishes are amazing in my building. The residential team is always putting on parties and events for us. I don't really care about the outside and I am very close to my office.

A bit of a rant, but just try to look at from a different viewpoint.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Seaport Parcels M1-M2 | Seaport Sq. | Seaport

Just like Ive been saying, the parts we love about Boston went NOWHERE. They still exist and nothing was taken away from us for this to be built. I visit the seaport, as I said in a different post my gf who is black works here, my family comes here to eat from framingham, and I know many people who love it down here. Also the parcels coming on line look incredible. Its still a huge construction site as bad as people want it to be completed. Its not. Theres a lot still coming on line and the next phase of seaport sq looks great, has a pedestrian corridor that will have an ice rink in the winter, has a theater coming, grocery store, parcel M has a very nice court yard coming, pier 4 will have the park and steps down to the water..... Im done defending the area you'll see once these parcels are done. There are millions and millions of sq ft coming online in like the next year. Youll see and then can judge from there.