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Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

It is a simple calculation... spend $60 million dollars in bond financed state money to jump start/boot strap redevelopment in Sullivan Square using proximity to Wynn, 93 and the Orange line to provide the demand and opportunity to pay for the project with parking and lease revenue and you get a mixed use project going there in less than ten years that could help anchor the redevelopment of the privately owned abutting parcels and keep more cars off of city streets.

The alternative is that the first major redevelopment that you will get is a hotel with parking garage on a private parcel further away from the highway and further away from Sullivan Square station and you get spot redevelopments on private parcels that will include garages out of necessity.

If you offload the cost and necessity of the parking garage and put it in one central location (and next to the highway rather than along the waterfront) then you can get more private investment going into redevelopments of abutting parcels that can then have less on-site parking.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

tangent said:
It is a simple calculation... spend $60 million dollars in bond financed state money to jump start/boot strap redevelopment in Sullivan Square using proximity to Wynn, 93 and the Orange line to provide the demand and opportunity to pay for the project with parking and lease revenue and you get a mixed use project going there in less than ten years that could help anchor the redevelopment of the privately owned abutting parcels and keep more cars off of city streets.

The alternative is that the first major redevelopment that you will get is a hotel with parking garage on a private parcel further away from the highway and further away from Sullivan Square station and you get spot redevelopments on private parcels that will include garages out of necessity.

If you offload the cost and necessity of the parking garage and put it in one central location (and next to the highway rather than along the waterfront) then you can get more private investment going into redevelopments of abutting parcels that can then have less on-site parking.
Click to expand...

But that all sounds way too much like sound urban planning. We don't really do that around here, right?
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

it sounds terrible is what it sounds like.
I tried to not get sucked back in because its such a silly discussion but here goes.

first, pro-garage arguments arent taking into account that 93 cant handle additional capacity. Its not just the local roads that are an issue here. Build a garage, you incentivize more more people to drive on a highway system that already cant handle the current volume. You want to give drivers a reason to stop driving (because agreed they wont do it on their own), this is not the way to do it.

second, there are very few private parcels anywhere near Sullivan Sq so no, a private garage (even part of mixed use) wont be the first thing developed, and it wouldnt be allowed anyway. One of the existing private parcels is set up to be a parking lot. its NOT used and hasnt been for years (I do not know the reason for this).

third, the state and the city dont need to spend one dollar to jump start development and provide demand in this area. The demand has been there for years. In fact, if the parcels in the area were privately owned they would have already been redeveloped (Im also looking at you, BHCC parking lots right next to the T). One of the main reasons (for the City, not so much for the state) why they are redesigning sullivan sq is to create more developable parcels in the area.

So here's a better calculation:
Spend the $60 million creating better service on the commuter rail (there's your incentive to change drivers habits positively). Let the private developers lease/buy the city and state owned land in the area and collect the taxes that come in, year after year after year.

Proper urban planning for the area would be entering into agreements now to sell/lease the existing sites and future sites that will be created so that the developers could (partially) pay for the reconstruction of the Sullivan Sq roadway network.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

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https://www.instagram.com/p/BW2f1dHlPmK/
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

^ Wow! An on-topic post! Nice work!

Isn't there a Sullivan Square thread, or something where this tangent about garages and commute patterns could go?
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

BKNA said:
it sounds terrible is what it sounds like.
I tried to not get sucked back in because its such a silly discussion but here goes.

first, pro-garage arguments arent taking into account that 93 cant handle additional capacity. Its not just the local roads that are an issue here. Build a garage, you incentivize more more people to drive on a highway system that already cant handle the current volume. You want to give drivers a reason to stop driving (because agreed they wont do it on their own), this is not the way to do it.

second, there are very few private parcels anywhere near Sullivan Sq so no, a private garage (even part of mixed use) wont be the first thing developed, and it wouldnt be allowed anyway. One of the existing private parcels is set up to be a parking lot. its NOT used and hasnt been for years (I do not know the reason for this).

third, the state and the city dont need to spend one dollar to jump start development and provide demand in this area. The demand has been there for years. In fact, if the parcels in the area were privately owned they would have already been redeveloped (Im also looking at you, BHCC parking lots right next to the T). One of the main reasons (for the City, not so much for the state) why they are redesigning sullivan sq is to create more developable parcels in the area.

So here's a better calculation:
Spend the $60 million creating better service on the commuter rail (there's your incentive to change drivers habits positively). Let the private developers lease/buy the city and state owned land in the area and collect the taxes that come in, year after year after year.

Proper urban planning for the area would be entering into agreements now to sell/lease the existing sites and future sites that will be created so that the developers could (partially) pay for the reconstruction of the Sullivan Sq roadway network.
Click to expand...

What other thing could the MBTA spend $60 million dollars on that would be guaranteed to take an additional 1000 to 2000 cars off of the local roads of downtown Boston?

Making cars less desirable an option shouldn't be the goal... that is literally counter-productive and eats into the economy. The goal should be to make mass transit more desirable during rush hours.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

BussesAin'tTrains said:
^ Wow! An on-topic post! Nice work!

Isn't there a Sullivan Square thread, or something where this tangent about garages and commute patterns could go?
Click to expand...

Probably, but it seems the current phase of Sullivan Square redevelopment is being driven (and paid for) by the casino.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

^ Great aerial! Now I finally have a feel for the site layout.

The Globe wrote in June that "crews are now building complicated portions of the lower floors, but in four to six weeks, work on the tower should accelerate to add one new floor about every week". That was six weeks ago, so we should be entering one floor per week territory right about now. Crazy that this will be topped out 5 months from now.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

tangent said:
Making cars less desirable an option shouldn't be the goal... that is literally counter-productive and eats into the economy. The goal should be to make mass transit more desirable during rush hours.
Click to expand...

This, unsurprisingly, ignores talk (on other threads that you've been part of) about externalities caused by cars, as well as the psychological addiction many people have to cars. If people want to drop their little pollution bombs all over the place, giving asthma to kids in East Somerville and creating more carbon dioxide, all while puttering around in their ego-box of motorized self-importance and anti-social behavior, then they should pay the full cost of doing so - somewhere north of $10 per gallon of gas. By the way, auto deaths are also damaging to the economy. I'll ignore the moral imperative of shifting to safer modes of travel for the time being, as money is the only metric that seems to mean much these days.

Until people are forced to pay the full cost of their vehicular travel, making auto commuting less convenient is actually an economically efficient objective. We could (and should) make mass transit as appealing as possible, absolutely. But the approach needs to involve both carrots and sticks.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

Coyote137 said:
This, unsurprisingly, ignores talk (on other threads that you've been part of) about externalities caused by cars, as well as the psychological addiction many people have to cars. If people want to drop their little pollution bombs all over the place, giving asthma to kids in East Somerville and creating more carbon dioxide, all while puttering around in their ego-box of motorized self-importance and anti-social behavior, then they should pay the full cost of doing so - somewhere north of $10 per gallon of gas. By the way, auto deaths are also damaging to the economy. I'll ignore the moral imperative of shifting to safer modes of travel for the time being, as money is the only metric that seems to mean much these days.

Until people are forced to pay the full cost of their vehicular travel, making auto commuting less convenient is actually an economically efficient objective. We could (and should) make mass transit as appealing as possible, absolutely. But the approach needs to involve both carrots and sticks.
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I find this needlessly hostile and ideological. Your language of "pollution bombs", "ego-box of motorized self-importance" and stuff like that does not show to me you're making rational analysis if things are better or or not, but based from an irrational viewpoint. Please don't take an adversarial stance to transit. All it does it creates sides and eventually hard line tenets to follow rather (like eventually we can't do trains because it a liberal idea) than a technocratic that everything has trade-offs with different groups of people whom all have valid desires and aims.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

Hey Ant, why don't you just cut to the chase and grade peoples posts. The idea of increasing parking at Sullivan Square for commuter convenience makes some people angry. particularly the people of East Somerville and Charlestown who's views and needs have been steamrolled by the relentless march of the car. The Wynn Casino and it's cursory glance at local infrastructure is just the latest chapter in this ongoing story. Feel free to deconstruct this post line by line.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

ant8904 said:
I find this needlessly hostile and ideological. Your language of "pollution bombs", "ego-box of motorized self-importance" and stuff like that does not show to me you're making rational analysis if things are better or or not, but based from an irrational viewpoint. Please don't take an adversarial stance to transit. All it does it creates sides and eventually hard line tenets to follow rather (like eventually we can't do trains because it a liberal idea) than a technocratic that everything has trade-offs with different groups of people whom all have valid desires and aims.
Click to expand...

The assertion was made that propping up an economically inefficient status quo with regard to transportation is actually somehow good for the economy. It has been repeated on multiple threads, and responses have been ignored.

I certainly wouldn't use this kind of language in a public meeting if I were to speak at such an event, and I usually don't use such strong language here. But I'm not going to succumb either to tone-policing that tells me I'm the one being irrational for pointing out that 2 + 2 = 4, not 5.

I realize people enjoy getting to ignore the consequences of their actions, especially for free, but sometimes it takes blunt language to make it clear that they're ignoring the consequences of the actions, and doing so for free.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

@Ruari - You're free to deconstruct my post. I'm not trying to shut people down, I want to hear point and counterpoints demonstrating or breaking the value of the idea. My last point to you asked for more counterpoints or elaboration of counterpoints to the garage (like the counterpoint that Sullivan Square is a prime location for housing and businesses and thus a garage is a waste of good land that dshoost88 raised). I implied for response like when you proposed to put such a garage from farther out of the city (which I did mention in my last post to you that it is more ideal), that would one get people to go it (and if you ask me, I would said either bring back OLX to the 1945 plan of building to Reading or more realistically, set up that Wellington to be easier to reach via RT 16 - especially since the park-and-ride is already underutilized). Part of the reason why I mention the Home Depot/Circuit City lot is to give an example of an alternative idea that doesn't involve using up the most prime land in Sullivan sq.

@Coyote137

I can recognize rhetoric has its place and sometimes a blunt weapon that is a sometimes needed tool in a discussion. Now that you re-worded to be clear to me, I can see you point. I still think Tangent is right that the big picture is aim to "make transit more desirable during rush hour". But "eats into the economy" ignores too many factors in choosing policy.

@both/all

I apologize for getting all pendantic on arguments and tone. I just think that especially this is a forum of enthusiast, we need to keep at least keep trade on ideas and reasoning on its merits. We are all here for the same reasons, I want to it to stick to those motivations if possible.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

ant8904 said:
set up that Wellington to be easier to reach via RT 16 - especially since the park-and-ride is already underutilized).
Click to expand...
Yup, this makes sense to me, along with extending the GLX to 16. Wellington and GLX @ Rt16 should have facilities like/as busy as Alewife.
I take Tangents point, and yea sure, a parking lot as part of a larger development might be an economic driver but at what (non financial) cost? I think that area needs to be developed with public transit based housing. The air pollution in East Somerville is pretty bad.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

Ruairi said:
I take Tangents point, and yea sure, a parking lot as part of a larger development might be an economic driver but at what (non financial) cost? I think that area needs to be developed with public transit based housing. The air pollution in East Somerville is pretty bad.
Click to expand...

At this point, Volvo is in the process of converting to all electric car manufacturing and dumping the internal combustion engine altogether, Tesla is offering a $35k all electric and multiple car companies are offering affordable electric options.

And my hope would be that all cars will have collision avoidance systems as a basic feature in the next ten years. That will reduce injuries and property damage due to accidents significantly. I would even hedge that basic collision avoidance systems becomes a mandated safety feature like airbags.

I assume less of a percentage of vehicles will be fully autonomous than will be equipped with collision avoidance, but that percentage could be anywhere between 20% to 80% fully autonomous.

There will still be lower impact manufacturing, recycling and brake pad dust (yes that is a non-trivial source of pollution) to contend with.

So within ten years a lot of the health, safety, and environmental objections to car transport just go away or are reduced significantly. I think it is certain enough to make projections in the ballpark of these numbers for planning purposes.

But I do understand the animosity towards a transportation system that kills tens of thousands of people per year in the US currently and injures thousands more. I just don't see it as staying that way in the very near future. We are at another technological inflection point, for the better.

Which is why for planning purposes, I don't see very much reason to debate the current failings of polluting and unsafe cars. I would be all for saying that all non-electric (cars and cars without collision avoidance systems should be banned from the city (or parts of the city) in say ten years. I would vote for that law. I think it is doable and would be of reasonable expense.

Whether cars or different forms of mass transit are the best transportation option given a certain threshold of density and how we can make improvements to better integrate our transportation options and reduce times spent traveling or transferring between vehicles all seem like worthwhile discussions to have about particular places.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

Ruairi said:
Yup, this makes sense to me, along with extending the GLX to 16. Wellington and GLX @ Rt16 should have facilities like/as busy as Alewife.
.
Click to expand...

The MBTA lists Wellington's weekday availability at less than 1%

So, I would say garages at Wellington AND Sullivan Square. The limiting factors are parking and Orange line capacity, not demand for transit at these stations.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

tangent said:
The MBTA lists Wellington's weekday availability at less than 1%

So, I would say garages at Wellington AND Sullivan Square. The limiting factors are parking and Orange line capacity, not demand for transit at these stations.
Click to expand...

or a bigger garage at Wellington (there's higher capacity coming) and housing at Sullivan but we're going around in circles here.
I'm looking forward to see the Wynn tower rise over the next few months.
 
Re: Wynn Everett Casino | Everett

How about better bus service feeding the stations?
 
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